I'd support Ceasars Legion except [Insert answer here]

I never realized Legion advocates Cannibalism. I'm going to start playthrough 4 on their side and see if any speech options will appear at The Fort or anywhere else.
Although now it seems to me that if they don't have a great leader at their disposal every time they can easily crumble, more easily than NCR it seems as the purpose of the Legions existence would be questioned. Even though Lanius says that they are the will of Caesar they couldn't maintain that attitude always without him. And even if I called him a pussy because he isn't like Lanius and hides too often I admire his leadership skills.
 
To all the Legion bashers ask yourself, if the Khans could transform from a bunch of blood thirsty raiders to a civilization which forged an empire from the ruins of the Northwest why can't the Legion make the same change down the line?

I agree with everything Courier says, they're not as bad as you think they are and the image we see of them in the Mojave is their military on a campaign not their society as a whole.

Also I think Lanius is a far better leader than Caesar. He's a brute and a killer but that's the image that he permits the Legion and Caesar to see but beneath the mask in the few chances you have to speak to him you catch a glimpse of a man who genuinely cares about the lives of his men and is far more sensible and more level-headed then Caesar.
 
To all the Legion bashers ask yourself, if the Khans could transform from a bunch of blood thirsty raiders to a civilization which forged an empire from the ruins of the Northwest why can't the Legion make the same change down the line?
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You mean, after they got their asses handed to them by the NCR, and only after they are joined by the Followers, the most peaceful, intellectual and idealistic faction? Because that's not exacly the same scenario as the Legion winning New Vegas by force and forcing an unforgiving occupation at best; at that point, mellowing out means the Legion would face grave unstability, and at any rate no Legion leader would willingly abondon some of his power, Ceasar is too arrogant and Lanius is too single-minded.

The Khans were broken even before the game began anyway, the Courier's actions just decide if they transform into something better, dissolve, or get absorbed by the Legion. And as much as I dislike Ceasar/Lanius, at least they aren't delusional like Papa Khan. Yeah, the Legion will help you drive off the NCR, and then let you occupy the gained terriroty without touching your tribal identity. Because that's what they did with the 86 other tribes, right?
 
Ilosar said:
Because that's not exacly the same scenario as the Legion winning New Vegas by force and forcing an unforgiving occupation at best; at that point, mellowing out means the Legion would face grave unstability, and at any rate no Legion leader would willingly abondon some of his power, Ceasar is too arrogant and Lanius is too single-minded.
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Again the point that you're ignoring and the same point that everyone has been trying to tell you is that the image of the Legion in the Mojave is that of a military campaign not their actual society. There's no way you can run a vast swath of territory and keep it virtually free of raiders without a highly organized administration.

Lanius single minded? Hardly. He understood that taking the Mojave was a pointless endeavor, the region is a sinkhole that sucked resources and manpower the only valuable thing other than the Dam was Vegas and the city represented everything that the Legion was against. He preferred to consolidate the Eastern territories than waste time and men on fighting the NCR but commanded the Legion westward because of Caesar's will. If Caesar dies Lanius will raze Vegas and that's the best thing he does, the NCR needed the city to continue their eastward expansion without it their presence stops at the Mojave securing the northwest borders.

From an anthropological standpoint the path that Caesar chose to take his Legion down makes perfect sense and you can see in the NCR that the old world values that they embraced were the very things that was causing their republic to suffer.
 
Am I the only one here who doesn't think the legion is sexist towards women? Think about it, when they capture a tribe the men are usually all killed through crucifixion, while the woman are either raped or taken as slaves. Those both suck, but that hardly makes the Legion sexist. Then if you are a natural born male citizen of the Legion you are forced to join the military, in which you are given football padding and a lawn mower blade, but if you are a natural born female citizen all you have to do is raise children in some of the safest territory in all of the Fallout universe. That sounds favorable to the women in my opinion.
 
GatheringCircle said:
Am I the only one here who doesn't think the legion is sexist towards women? Think about it, when they capture a tribe the men are usually all killed through crucifixion, while the woman are either raped or taken as slaves. Those both suck, but that hardly makes the Legion sexist. Then if you are a natural born male citizen of the Legion you are forced to join the military, in which you are given football padding and a lawn mower blade, but if you are a natural born female citizen all you have to do is raise children in some of the safest territory in all of the Fallout universe. That sounds favorable to the women in my opinion.
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that's still sexist, as it's a different life played out for you only on the basis of your gender.
 
It's still sexist in favor of men because non-enslaved men have all the say.

Also, not all the men are conscripted, they do have a society and their own cities, trade routes and what-not, meaning there are men who do things outside the military.

On that note perhaps not all the women are enslaved either, however, those who would not be would still answer to their husbands.
 
Yeah... During the quest to convince Papa Khan not to side with the Legion, talking to the lady Khan drug runner, you get to note that at best, she'll become an officer's wife.
 
Old Man Vee said:
Yeah... During the quest to convince Papa Khan not to side with the Legion, talking to the lady Khan drug runner, you get to note that at best, she'll become an officer's wife.
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Wife, priestess or slave.

THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS!
 
Lanius will raze Vegas
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Were are people getting this about the Legion razing Vegas, with Caesar he peacefully rules over the Mojave and makes slaves out of trouble makers, and Lianus attacks it as a military target killing all those who appose him. Killing everyone who gets in your way is a big difference from burning a city to the ground.

I don't think the Legion promotes cannibalism, I think Caesar overlooks it as well as other practices because he knows he leads a tribal armies and he has to make due with the human material he has. I also don't think he has a problem with modern medicine; this most likely has to do with tribal superstition. After conquering the NCR the Legion would probably lose a lot of its more unpleasant aspects and would reform itself in many ways. Somehow I have the feeling that Caesar has nothing but contempt for the Tribals who fight for him as can be seen by his comments toward Lianas and just sees them as a means to an end.
 
that's still sexist, as it's a different life played out for you only on the basis of your gender.
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The legion has roles for both genders that they are expected to follow. I fail to see how that equates to sexism.


It's still sexist in favor of men because non-enslaved men have all the say.

Also, not all the men are conscripted, they do have a society and their own cities, trade routes and what-not, meaning there are men who do things outside the military.
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Non enslaved men might have more authority because in their society (just like in actual Roman society) all positions of power are run by people in the military aka the men. They have the say because they proved themselves in battle. Where as women aren't expected to fight so they also don't get positions of power involving the military.

On that note perhaps not all the women are enslaved either, however, those who would not be would still answer to their husbands.
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We know that all women are not slaves. The women who are born into the Legion are made to raise children it is likely they aren't even married, because they aren't the ones having the children. These women have the easiest job in the wastes.
 
The legion has roles for both genders that they are expected to follow. I fail to see how that equates to sexism.
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I agree with this, gender roles don't necessarily equate sexism. While women of the Legion don't really have much freedom, neither do the men, and the women are at least kept safe, rather than conscripted.

Also because women likely make up the large majority of the population at home, some certainly would have some power, even if it isn't official and if there are priestesses as described in Van Buren, they would likely have some official power, even if it is not a much as a military officer.


also Officer's wife probably is just an elegant way of saying, Personal Slave.
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Even in the case of arranged marriages, the word wife usually has a much different meaning than slave and although there is likely some abuse, I don't imagine a very strict law and order society whose biggest selling point is safety, would condone institutionalized domestic violence (although they might).

As far as medicine, every NCR camp you go to in the game complains about the lack for medicine and supplies; the Legion has far less medical knowledge, likely has far fewer medical supplies available and suffers far more causalities, so it is obvious why they should be expected to go without, as it would be impossible for them to ever have enough to go around. Other forms of technology are likely similar situations. Despite these various restrictions the Legion is still allowed to use natural remedies like healing powders and cave fungus and use advanced weapons like 12.7 smgs.[/quote]
 
GatheringCircle said:
that's still sexist, as it's a different life played out for you only on the basis of your gender.
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The legion has roles for both genders that they are expected to follow. I fail to see how that equates to sexism.


It's still sexist in favor of men because non-enslaved men have all the say.

Also, not all the men are conscripted, they do have a society and their own cities, trade routes and what-not, meaning there are men who do things outside the military.
Click to expand...

Non enslaved men might have more authority because in their society (just like in actual Roman society) all positions of power are run by people in the military aka the men. They have the say because they proved themselves in battle. Where as women aren't expected to fight so they also don't get positions of power involving the military.

On that note perhaps not all the women are enslaved either, however, those who would not be would still answer to their husbands.
Click to expand...

We know that all women are not slaves. The women who are born into the Legion are made to raise children it is likely they aren't even married, because they aren't the ones having the children. These women have the easiest job in the wastes.
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And what if they want to be soldiers? Or want to do what they want? If they asked they'd be beaten or something like that. Just because you think its easy, and that its safe, dosen't mean that women will like it, and it being easy and safe dosen't make it any better when its forced on somebody. If we tried to make female soldiers stay at home because its safe and 'easy' you'd be called sexist, and as such, seeing as the legion apply it on a very large basis, they are sexist.
 
GatheringCircle said:
that's still sexist, as it's a different life played out for you only on the basis of your gender.
Click to expand...

The legion has roles for both genders that they are expected to follow. I fail to see how that equates to sexism.


It's still sexist in favor of men because non-enslaved men have all the say.

Also, not all the men are conscripted, they do have a society and their own cities, trade routes and what-not, meaning there are men who do things outside the military.
Click to expand...

Non enslaved men might have more authority because in their society (just like in actual Roman society) all positions of power are run by people in the military aka the men. They have the say because they proved themselves in battle. Where as women aren't expected to fight so they also don't get positions of power involving the military.

On that note perhaps not all the women are enslaved either, however, those who would not be would still answer to their husbands.
Click to expand...

We know that all women are not slaves. The women who are born into the Legion are made to raise children it is likely they aren't even married, because they aren't the ones having the children. These women have the easiest job in the wastes.
Click to expand...

And what if they want to be soldiers? Or want to do what they want? If they asked they'd be beaten or something like that. Just because you think its easy, and that its safe, dosen't mean that women will like it, and it being easy and safe dosen't make it any better when its forced on somebody. If we tried to make female soldiers stay at home because its safe and 'easy' you'd be called sexist, and as such, seeing as the legion apply it on a very large basis, they are sexist.
 
And what if they want to be soldiers? Or want to do what they want? If they asked they'd be beaten or something like that. Just because you think its easy, and that its safe, dosen't mean that women will like it, and it being easy and safe dosen't make it any better when its forced on somebody. If we tried to make female soldiers stay at home because its safe and 'easy' you'd be called sexist, and as such, seeing as the legion apply it on a very large basis, they are sexist.
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Yes women get no choice on what they want to be, but neither do the men. That is gender roles not sexism. I also highly doubt they hit their own female citizens like they would a slave, and you have no basis for that conjecture.
 
And what if they want to be soldiers? Or want to do what they want?
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What if one of the conscripted men doesn't want to be a soldier and wanted to spend time with his children? He'd probably be executed.
 
GatheringCircle said:
And what if they want to be soldiers? Or want to do what they want? If they asked they'd be beaten or something like that. Just because you think its easy, and that its safe, dosen't mean that women will like it, and it being easy and safe dosen't make it any better when its forced on somebody. If we tried to make female soldiers stay at home because its safe and 'easy' you'd be called sexist, and as such, seeing as the legion apply it on a very large basis, they are sexist.
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Yes women get no choice on what they want to be, but neither do the men. That is gender roles not sexism. I also highly doubt they hit their own female citizens like they would a slave, and you have no basis for that conjecture.
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Where are you getting the idea they have citizenship? Theres no mention of it, and several characters react negatively to the treatment of women in the game, so I doubt they have citizens, who they treat differently from slaves.

Lets have a look at the vault:

This horde of cruel, yet highly disciplined slavers has spread across the southwest like an all-consuming flame. Founded by a fallen member of the Followers of the Apocalypse, Caesar's Legion is effectively an enormous, conscripted slave army. As Caesar conquers the peoples of the wasteland, he strips them of their tribal identities and turns their young men into ruthless legionaries and women into breeding stock. They are well organized, moving and attacking in large packs, and deliberately commit atrocities to terrorize those who might dare oppose them
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See, they use women as breeding stock, rather than treating them as actual people with seperate roles.

And now a qoute from J.E Sawyer.

Even though breeding is incredibly important in the Legion, there isn't any concept of family outside of the Legion's structure. All of the places where the player encounters the Legion are forward camps where direct military service is given the most weight and is of the most immediate importance. Because only males are involved in that service, they look down upon females even though it's incredibly short-sighted
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See they look down on women, therefore they are sexist. And that answers the point in the post above me, as the legionaries don't give a fuck about their children.
 
Where are you getting the idea they have citizenship? Theres no mention of it, and several characters react negatively to the treatment of women in the game, so I doubt they have citizens, who they treat differently from slaves.
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The Priestesses that raise the children are not from captured tribes they are children raised in the Legion thus they are citizens. They are the ones I keep referring to when I say they have easy jobs.

See, they use women as breeding stock, rather than treating them as actual people with seperate roles.
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The paragraph you mention is not sourced, but yes they do use captured woman as breeding stock or as slaves. I am not denying that.
Furthermore the J.E. Sawyer quote only talks about the men in the forward camps not the whole of the Legion or any official policy.
 
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