You’ve been playing checkers, but Caesar has been playing chess this whole time.
If you could make one change to the Fallout Lore, what would it be?
- Thread starter ElloinmorninJ
- Start date
TheGM
The voice of reason
^^^Pffffffffffffffft. he still thinks Chess is the thinking mans game.
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
what happened to connect 4852?
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
F3 onward, each game is mandated to have Cerve Haen be a reoccuring NPC and object of ridicule.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
There's a lot I'd change looking back. The Enclave is a big one; its handling in Fo2 was less than stellar. But another one that comes to mind is the Brotherhood of Steel. In the first two games, the Brotherhood were isolationists that nonetheless provided technology and military support first to settlements like the Hub, and then the NCR. I just dislike the change from givers of aid to greedy technological. I feel like it made them less interesting, and more of an ideological example to skewer rather than a fully realised faction.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
I'd say altruism makes them less interesting than making them a cautionary tale of ideology
Dr Fallout
Centurion
While I can understand that, I disagree. This is not blind eyed idealism of the Eastern Brotherhood, but a desire to rebuild the Wasteland coupled with practical considerations; they have to buy their food somehow. Their change in New Vegas made them into a meme "Hurr durr gotta stockpile tech cuz wastelanders STOOPID". Even Mr House tears them a new one. Its a reversal of early lore, where they were a faction you'd want to join and work with.
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
The Enclave exists to give the player gear to play with. If I did it over again I would just replace the Enclave with something else. Like a mercenary company or something.
Oh wait you're talking about something else.
Oh wait you're talking about something else.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
It sounds slightly like you're conflating practicality and raw logic with a what makes them compelling. The BoS being a distributor and tech research house would make sense for them and people like Veronica see that. Their beliefs are constrictive and becoming rapidly outdated to the point it's killing them. It's dogmatic and impractical as House and others point out but IMO that's what makes them interesting.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
There's the rub. The stockpiling of tech, more so the reclaiming of tech from Wastelanders isn't a core belief or Brotherhood dogma. That's what makes it so jarring. They just suddenly decided that the NCR was problematic and that stealing technology from others for inexplicable reasons was the way to go.
Honestly, I suspect Obsidian decided to go that direction to justify the Brotherhood being a tight spot so they could make a cautionary tale of isolationism, xenophobia and whatnot. But that amazes me because the Brotherhood always had a clear weakness, it's unwillingness to recruit outsiders, instead of developing a half-assed tech-stealing/hoarding policy which everyone rightly denounces as retarded.
I dunno. I certainly understand where you're coming from, and I can appreciate why you'd find it compelling. But as a diehard Fallout 1 fan, I felt like the Brotherhood was done dirty, and became less of an actual faction and more a vessel for this message.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
You have to remember that BoS by the time of New Vegas were at war with the NCR and just had lost a big battle at Helios One. They aren't interested in providing technology to outside people because that's literally giving away equipment that can help them against the NCR.
The fact you can convince BoS and NCR to actually stop fighting and join forces shows that BoS is not beyond reason, it's just they are desperate to stay alive and not in any disposition to start giving out technology.
The fact you can convince BoS and NCR to actually stop fighting and join forces shows that BoS is not beyond reason, it's just they are desperate to stay alive and not in any disposition to start giving out technology.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
Do remember that the core of the BoS-NCR war as far as we understand it is that the BoS were unhappy with the NCR's procurement and development of advanced technology.
Personally I don't think their hoarding is that retarded in basic principle. Dated to the century after the war, sure, but the idea of US military descendants securing and studying "lost technology" with the belief that they were the only responsible hands is very solid, and personally I think them persevering with that attitude into antiquity and conflict with a Wasteland which no longer required paramilitary custodians is far more interesting than them being nebulous "well equipped and advanced technology faction". It serves nicely to give them an identity and morals unique to themselves and also allows similar core factions like the Followers to then branch off into their own unique versions of that premise.
Personally I don't think their hoarding is that retarded in basic principle. Dated to the century after the war, sure, but the idea of US military descendants securing and studying "lost technology" with the belief that they were the only responsible hands is very solid, and personally I think them persevering with that attitude into antiquity and conflict with a Wasteland which no longer required paramilitary custodians is far more interesting than them being nebulous "well equipped and advanced technology faction". It serves nicely to give them an identity and morals unique to themselves and also allows similar core factions like the Followers to then branch off into their own unique versions of that premise.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
The war only began because the Brotherhood of Steel started getting antsy about the NCR and then started stealing technology, which included energy weapons. According to the Van Buren snippet on the wiki, it was to restore the Brotherhood's privileged position. Which makes no sense since its privileged position was to develop and sell advanced tech to the Wastelanders. At some point down the line, Jeremy Maxson took on the mentality of a dragon. However, I understand why the Brotherhood is the way it is in New Vegas.
That's exactly the sort of thing I would have liked to see. A Brotherhood that's past its prime, dwindling in numbers because of its insular nature. Its purpose flying out of its hands as the NCR continues to develop. There is a sort of irony here, the Brotherhood of Steel has achieved no little amount of its prime directive, but in doing so has essentially taken away its own use. Perhaps the Mojave is considered a fresh start. You could have resentment against the NCR ("the Brotherhood hasn't received enough recognition" that sort of thing). But ultimately it should be still a faction that can be sympathised with, a faction you'd want to work with.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
I think the Mojave Brotherhood as written could be sympathetic given the right context. Picture Hildern foolishly letting the Vault 22 horror occur again within the grounds of NCR and the Brotherhood deploying a strike team to contain, cleanse and secure the problem. Or raiders squatting on pre-war millitary ordnance that could level half the map. These would all be within character for the Mojave BoS but the point of their portrayal in Vegas is to show their ideology at its worst, in what I imagine is deliberate immediate contrast to their sparklingly clean presentation in 3
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Because as stated in Fallout 2 by Matthew, one of the main goals of BoS was to hoard all technology and only give out to the ones they saw worthy. Of course if a faction that is rising in power at the rate NCR is and also have an interest in old technology, BoS is not just gonna sit down and do nothing. Specially when they were stagnant at the time of Fallout 2, so them attempting to be the sole users of old technology would get them out of that stagnation.
They also only traded technology that they deemed not very important for food and other resources, any high tech stuff would be hoarded by them.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
That just contradicts Fallout 1. Selling weapons to the Hub for food, water and other supplies doesn't seem like the Brotherhood was "doling out tech in small parcels to those who deserved it and had the wisdom to properly use it". The Brotherhood were arms manufacturers in a similar way to the gunrunners. Your second point is relevant here, and probably true. But there are reasonable explanations that don't involve pseudo-religious hoarding of tech: there isn't that much of it in the first place, or more likely, they simply didn't want the higher-tech stuff getting into the wrong hands (bandits, and the like). The Water merchants tried to steal weapons from the Brotherhood before Fallout 1. Imagine if they were armed to the teeth with power armour and rocket launchers?
The contradiction continues, as the canon ending of the BoS under Rhombus mentions that they become a development and technological powerhouse, and that they help spread technology through the New California Republic. I guess by this point it's a personal dislike of mine of how the Brotherhood was handled past Fallout 1 lol. It does however make me understand why Obsidian made the Brotherhood go the way they did in Fallout New Vegas. I guess its unfair to judge them harshly for that since they were just going off the lore established in Fallout 2.
I personally enjoy the lore of the BoS between 2 and NV; the idea of the Brotherhood being this insular, shattered organization really appeals to me as a concept.
It makes the quests like I Could Make You Care and dialogue with Veronica have impact, and visual payoff. You see how secluded, weakened, and frankly inbred the BoS has become. In my eyes, it’s a cool take that the NCR overcame the better training and equipment of the Brotherhood, and shows the flaws in their mentality. The world may be moving forward, but they’re not.
And they’re paying for it.
By the end of NV, the Brotherhood is in a position of having to change, or fucking die. And depending on who you side with in their quests, you either bought them the hope of a few futile years or an entirely new future under a reformed McNamara.
My problem isn’t so much with how the Brotherhood is handled as much as how everyone wants them dead. NCR? Certainly. Caesar? Sure. House? Ok...? Yes Man? Ok now you’re pushing it.
It makes the quests like I Could Make You Care and dialogue with Veronica have impact, and visual payoff. You see how secluded, weakened, and frankly inbred the BoS has become. In my eyes, it’s a cool take that the NCR overcame the better training and equipment of the Brotherhood, and shows the flaws in their mentality. The world may be moving forward, but they’re not.
And they’re paying for it.
By the end of NV, the Brotherhood is in a position of having to change, or fucking die. And depending on who you side with in their quests, you either bought them the hope of a few futile years or an entirely new future under a reformed McNamara.
My problem isn’t so much with how the Brotherhood is handled as much as how everyone wants them dead. NCR? Certainly. Caesar? Sure. House? Ok...? Yes Man? Ok now you’re pushing it.
TomJ
Still Mildly Glowing
One thing I would change is the Enclave's plan to genocide the world again in Fallout 2 and New Vegas. I get that there was generally a "Nazis are like totally evil" reference in most video games before every video game franchise needed to have zombies shoehorned into them, but there are other ways to do fascism than a large scale genocide. One way to make a totalitarian society would be if the Enclave were setting up bases and recruiting wastelanders to "rebuild" society. In the bases, I would still have the Enclave purge ghouls and super mutants, but most of the humans would be "reconditioned". The reconditioning would be repressing the personality of the wastelander and implanting the upbringing of a jingoistic conservative parody of what someone from the 1950s was. That alone would be a threat the NCR and Brotherhood since you could be infiltrated by someone who was reconditioned and the Enclave wanting to expand would just be a threat to the NCR who was also an expanding power. I would write the story so that they reconditioned people all live in the outposts the Enclave set up and these outposts act as a self reinforcing bubble to maintain the conditioning. And these outposts would more or less function like army bases with everyone subjected to a quasi military lifestyle at work and 1950s suburbia when not at work.
I'm not sure if this qualifies as a change or just a clarification of the lore, but I would make it more known what life is like under the Legion for the towns that submitted rather than face destruction and slavery. Cause it seems like they are either living under a totalitarian regime that controls everything or they are basically left alone until the Legion needs something. Culture is more than just living in a military dictatorship and it doesn't seem like there is much culture in the Legion if you are in the middle tier of society where you are not a slave and not a Legionnaire. Which is also a gripe I have with the NCR and Caesar at least said he has, but it seems like he is no better. Which would fit in with how dictators are, but I would want a hard confirmation of that.
I'm not sure if this qualifies as a change or just a clarification of the lore, but I would make it more known what life is like under the Legion for the towns that submitted rather than face destruction and slavery. Cause it seems like they are either living under a totalitarian regime that controls everything or they are basically left alone until the Legion needs something. Culture is more than just living in a military dictatorship and it doesn't seem like there is much culture in the Legion if you are in the middle tier of society where you are not a slave and not a Legionnaire. Which is also a gripe I have with the NCR and Caesar at least said he has, but it seems like he is no better. Which would fit in with how dictators are, but I would want a hard confirmation of that.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Everything was done dirty; cherry picked for sake of brand recognition, and re-imagined for market trends. If I could make one change to the lore, it would be the removal of Bethesda's influence upon it.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I definitely agree with this sentiment, but I gotta be clear here, I'm not fond of the depiction in New Vegas (or even Fallout 2 come to think of it, the little there was) either. But the blame has to fall on Bethesda for deciding that the Brotherhood, Super Mutants and 50s kitsch would forever define Fallout.