T
TorontoReign
Guest
Ghouls aren't a problem. It is one of the few unique things the series brought to the table so they kept it in.
If you could make one change to the Fallout Lore, what would it be?
- Thread starter ElloinmorninJ
- Start date
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
Unlike the supers I also don't think their untethering from Bakersfield actually is of any detriment
Cobra Commander
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Only one?
Ok, Caesar's Legion tries to emulate the Roman Empire, but does not like technology. dafuq?
Ok, Caesar's Legion tries to emulate the Roman Empire, but does not like technology. dafuq?
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
Caesar does explain that his similarly to Rome is primarily in creating the monoculture aesthetic for the Legion and in his ambitions for its transformation post-Mojave, right? Rather than complete imitation. It has been a while.
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Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
As Unicron put it, "You exaggerate".
Meant? What problem? [exactly]
The problem is that the core concept is a one-shot campaign setting, not meant to be overly scrutinized... but with sequel after a sequel, and the spin-offs, it all has to make sense across each game. Now they have to justify a way to have the ghouls, and the ghoulish condition loses its mystique and poignancy for becoming generic baddy #2.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
I agree that the handling of Ghouls has made them lose their mystique but I think that's down to presentation rather than the concept being broadened beyond Necropolis. If they still remained rare, held thematic significance as walking ghosts of nuclear warfare and weren't cannon fodder on par with Giant Rats, they'd still be great.
The Ghouls are an interesting feature of the setting that can function as cool story tools for a huge variety of stuff, such as Dean Domino. What makes them different from the Supers in their proliferation not being a problem is that the Supers tell a very specific story-thread tied to a very specific region, whereas the story "told" by the concept of Ghouls isn't one tethered to California but the aftermath of nuclear horror in general.
The Ghouls are an interesting feature of the setting that can function as cool story tools for a huge variety of stuff, such as Dean Domino. What makes them different from the Supers in their proliferation not being a problem is that the Supers tell a very specific story-thread tied to a very specific region, whereas the story "told" by the concept of Ghouls isn't one tethered to California but the aftermath of nuclear horror in general.
Dean Domino could have been a pre-war human, uniquely mutated into an ageless, deformed being by the cloud. Like the ghost people but differently (due to not being trapped in the hazmat suits).
I think that if Dean was like that (instead of being a ghoul), it would make the character even more unique and "better" in a way. After all, the cloud is unique to Sierra Madre, it mutated and made certain humans almost immortal (ghost people) and it would work better for Dean Domino than him being just a ghoul.
I think it would be possible to make a similar functioning human mutant that could replace the ghouls in most areas, where the mutation would be related to any nuclear radiation.
They could be fast and widespread, keeping the classic ghouls rare and slow. It would even make sense if this new mutant didn't need to eat or drink for ages, or could hibernate for decades or something. This way it could explain Bethesda "ghouls" without retcon any of the classic fallout's ghouls.
Bethesda made the swampfolk, they could have made this new "ageless" human mutant too. And it would probably fit better with the world and lore since in Fallout 3 ghouls are already more like zombies, while in Fallout 4 and 76, ghouls are even more like zombies. With them just laying on the ground as if they were corpses and crawling to life, with a kid surviving in a fridge for hundreds of years, etc. If you're going to change a race in your universe so much, you would be better off just making a new one that fits your changes instead (unless there is a good in-lore explanation).
I don't really have a problem with ghouls not being just from Necropolis. But I think the way Bethesda keeps changing ghouls, it would make more sense for them to be a separate "race" from the west coast ghouls. This would also make it more impactful when a proper ghoul would appear in the newer games. One that traveled from the west coast to the east coast, maybe it would have an objective/goal that would spawn several games. Then in the end it would fullfil it's goal and maybe even be related to the main quest of a later game, to tie it all nice together somehow.
Hardboiled Android
Vault Fossil
Ghouls are definitely the most transferrable of the superficial aspects of the setting and the least offensive to be present in future games - though if it must be included, it ought to be kept fairly rare and not just plastered everywhere as the generic enemy. Whatver conditions generated the ghouls of California, it was a relatively singular event.
But generally, one of the things I like about Fallout 1 is that we only see a relatively small corner of the Wasteland. The efects of a nuclear war are more comparable to the inner core of the sun then to normal earth like conditions - so when coupled with pre-War super science, the result is bound to be that every seperate corner of the Wasteland is going to be wildly different from another, almost like an alien planet. While what's happening in the Core during the events of Fallout 1 may seem to be at the center of the world, in truth it is ultimately a minor conflict that may have implications for the future of the earth, but similar battles are ongoing across the planet and the country.
The thing that makes Fallout Fallout are not these superficial aspects - rather, it is the background style of the pre-War ruins, overarching themes, and the style of writing.
Though ultimately they were even then just derivative of zombies in general and the screamers from A Boy and His Dog, with a few twists thrown in.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Actually I always took the ghouls for a play on anti-elves. They are immortal, green, and they remember the past age—but they are ugly, miserable, stiff jointed slow pokes who live in a radioactive desert rather than agile happy elfin folk who live in a lush viridian colored forest full of old oaks.
Back then every RPG was a fantasy setting. Fallout was uncommonly set apart; polar opposite.
Fallout 2 even shipped with the tagline: "A classic RPG minus the faeries, spells, and other crap."
*Of course there is also the reference to the 'walking dead'; ie. nuclear bomb survivors who are ambulatory, but so over exposed that they would soon die from it.
Back then every RPG was a fantasy setting. Fallout was uncommonly set apart; polar opposite.
Fallout 2 even shipped with the tagline: "A classic RPG minus the faeries, spells, and other crap."
*Of course there is also the reference to the 'walking dead'; ie. nuclear bomb survivors who are ambulatory, but so over exposed that they would soon die from it.
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ElloinmorninJ
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Well, then: The Fallout series should make anti-orcs (whatever those would be?)
Iprovidelittlepianos
Vault Senior Citizen
Speaking of ghouls, one small thing I’d like to change is in regards to Randall Clark’s diary. At one point he mentions seeing a pack of feral ghouls, being horrified, and then putting them out of their misery. Because I don’t think feral ghouls should even exist (at least the way there are portrayed in 3, 4, 76, NV), I’d rather think that he unintentionally killed innocent ghouls because he thought they were monsters.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
It's funny...The FO3 feral ghouls look more like the actual Fallout ghouls; this is because in-engine they are effectively animal/creatures with a custom mesh model. They don't talk or wear clothes, so they don't have to support the standard human skeleton, and Face-Gen rig—like the 'regular' talking ghouls do.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
This is a toss up for me between the Brotherhood of Steel, Super Mutants and Cabot House. The Brotherhood and Super Mutants Bethesda keeps shoehorning into their games without rhyme or reason to the point where one starts to think that the Brotherhood is as massive as the NCR instead of it being a small and isolated faction from California.
Wth the Super Mutants one will start thinking that everyone and their brother had some type of FEV to make Super Mutants in whatever part of the wasteland that Bethesda has their games take place. Instead of them being unique and created at the Mariposa Military Base and the FEV being from West Tek.
With Cabot House, Lovecraft and "ancient aliens" should have no place in Fallout. Mothershit Zeta is universally hated for this very reason yet Bethesda seems adamant that aliens be apart of Fallout lore. Don't even get me started on Bethesda's constant push to have aliens be the cause the Great War.
Wth the Super Mutants one will start thinking that everyone and their brother had some type of FEV to make Super Mutants in whatever part of the wasteland that Bethesda has their games take place. Instead of them being unique and created at the Mariposa Military Base and the FEV being from West Tek.
With Cabot House, Lovecraft and "ancient aliens" should have no place in Fallout. Mothershit Zeta is universally hated for this very reason yet Bethesda seems adamant that aliens be apart of Fallout lore. Don't even get me started on Bethesda's constant push to have aliens be the cause the Great War.
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That which @Atomic Postman said, and the Legion has a very Darwinist pecking order, as seen when using the speech check to convince the Fort guard to let you keep your stims.
The Legion doesn’t mollycoddle their weak, they let them get strong or fucking die, with an intensity that the Khans can only masturbate to.
In the eyes of many Legionaries, tech likely keeps the weak in play for longer, and as such is an enemy of everything the Legion stands for.
The only hole I can see is Caesar’s auto-doc. What the fuck, Edward?
Alphons
National Beholder
Definitely Maxson creating the entire Brotherhood and then calling his military buddies to recruit them into it.
I always liked Brotherhood, because their identity evolved over decades of isolation, long after Maxson and other people that remembered pre-war days passed away.
Well not anymore. Turns out that it was all Maxson. After getting to Lost Hills and losing several people along the way, he spent several days designing new uniforms, new titles and hierarchy, symbols, protocols (like a Circle of Steel) and goals. Then named it Brotherhood of Steel and started calling his friends and trying to sell them a complete package. All of this before the winter of 2077.
I always liked Brotherhood, because their identity evolved over decades of isolation, long after Maxson and other people that remembered pre-war days passed away.
Well not anymore. Turns out that it was all Maxson. After getting to Lost Hills and losing several people along the way, he spent several days designing new uniforms, new titles and hierarchy, symbols, protocols (like a Circle of Steel) and goals. Then named it Brotherhood of Steel and started calling his friends and trying to sell them a complete package. All of this before the winter of 2077.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
I like to think of it as Caesar, like most dicators, values his own life more than his ideology. Fidel Castro hated Capitalism and the West but was well known to have hired doctors and specialists from Western nations whenever he fell ill. I can definitely see someone as egotistical as Caesar doing something like that.
Iprovidelittlepianos
Vault Senior Citizen
I think Caesar’s aversion to technology had more to do with the fact that advanced technology was too hard to come by and they lacked the infrastructure and knowledge to produce it. I always thought that even though Caesar talks about how guns and stimpaks are for cowards, that’s just because there’s not enough to go around so the advanced stuff is reserved for those who have “earned” it. And Caesar has definitely earned it, at least in the eyes of his underlings. So having an auto-doc is only a little hypocritical. Like most things with the Legion, their strict rules are for practical reasons as opposed to ideological purity. I doubt Caesar actually thinks women are inferior (intellectually at least), and if he had a ton of auto docs lying around he’d probably let them be used to heal any legionnaires above the rank of recruit.
Edit: I guess I agree with the fact that Caesar’s ego is what allows him to bend the rules of his own society for his benefit, and no one in the legion would question it.
TheGM
The voice of reason
That shit was great in FO76. Maxson calls his old friend Dave(idfc what their real name is) on the other side of the country and they just happen to not have been nuked and have access to a fucking telephone and somehow didn't hang up on Maxson when he told him he started a Order with Knights and Squires, in fact they thought it was great idea and wanted in.
Then they all died.
Biggest shoehorn I've ever seen.
Iprovidelittlepianos
Vault Senior Citizen
And speaking of sexism within the Legion, it would have been nice if Caesar actually struggled with the fact that his society is too misogynistic for its own good. Cass says that they don’t deal with female-led caravans, and in the relatively egalitarian world of post-war America it might be difficult to convince people to join your side if they knew that half the population is going to be subjugated as a result of Legion culture. Apparently the Legion doesn’t interfere too much with towns under its influence, but I doubt they’d be cool with one if their towns having a female mayor, or a female blacksmith, or any female in any kind of position of importance.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
I believe the same. In a post apocalyptic world things like working guns or stimpacks will be hard to come by. Only those who prove themselves are given the privilege of having a firearm in the Legion. This belief also culls the weak from the Legion army so only the strongest, resourceful and canniest survive.
It has also been confirmed by Josh Sawyer that Caesar himself isn't really a sexist. He just understands that in order for his society to thrive (as well as maintain his army) he needs an increase in the output of children. In order for that to happen he needs to forbid women from combat roles or being in positions of power and enforce more care giving roles along the women. Men, women, it doesn't matter to Caesar. All are pawns on a chessboard for him.
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