Inon Zur Officially Announced as Fallout 3 Composer

[Seymour the spore plant]

"Music should fit the setting" is not true. In fact, it's stupid. If I make a Command & Conquers-based FPS (I won't), it better not have the same music as the RTS games

I might have come off the wrong way in that last post, because I do not think that gameplay is completely irrelevant to the game's music. A stealth-centered game should not have the exact same soundtrack as one primarily about action - the latter can be much more upbeat, which would sound silly in the former.

However, to me it is a matter of priorities, first and foremost of which should always be the setting. If a track is not evocative of a game's setting, it fails completely, whereas an out-of-place but true to its roots music would be far less jarring. Take FO:BoS and its horrid nu-metal angsty tunes, for an extreme example: it is adequate music for its action-filled genre, but deviates completely from the originals' style and thus sucks a lot.

Mr Zur's work is worlds better than BoS, obviously, but I think that instead of changing the musical style and then trying to adapt this new one to the originals' they should have gone the other way around. Make Morgan-ish music more actiony, not action music more Morgan-ish.

 

[Flamescreen]

LOL, ok I've signed the petition but it will not work, these hardly ever accomplish something.
...

However if Morgan was to write new music I'd expect he wouldn't settle for less than, say 20k.

I agree petitions usually don't change things, but there's a big difference between having a petition running and not having a petition running (whatever the subject). Petitions shows an activity and allows to "federate" on a common subject / opinion many peoples which would otherwise stay alone.
It also allows to draw interest in the subject and could even "prove" that the said subject is in fact not interesting a lot of people.

As for Mr Morgan, i'm sure that the publicity it would make him would be worthing a lot more that what he could gains from fan donations.
Also, not every artist works only / always for money ...

Lastly, 200 people gaving 100 $ is asking for a few to give a lot. Considering how community and Internet are, it would probably have more success asking a lot to give a few. And for a single piece of work, it shall not cost that much.

Well obviously I'm talking on a full soundtrack here, as I stated.
An isolated piece wouldn't cost too much, maybe around 1-2k.

And another thing, 100k is not too much to ask, considering original FO fans will not be kids any longer. Better to concentrate on a few reliable people to donate a good amount than loads that probably wouldn't give 5$ each for anything.(That said I doubt we could gather more than 30 people to actually do it)

Not that it changes anything but notice how many actually signed the petition, even if futile? And that's a few seconds deal. Donating would be far more difficult, trust me.

 

[Aaargh]

@ Flamescreeen : My mistake, i misread you

Someone shall ask to Mark Morgan if he could do one or several bonus track evocating how he would have seen other Fallout time or places (like in Fallout 3...).

For the petition, since i posted it nearly doubles (37-61), but ok, it's not a lot. As long as it'll stays in a few forums, it won't draw enough attention to progress. And even showing it do not progress is interesting as it obviously would lead to the fact that only a few really cares about the subject.

Here's the link for those who misssed it : http://www.petitiononline.com/ah5krnd0/petition.html

 

[Bodybag]

It's seems to me too that Bodybag is buying the immersion gimmick. If that's not what you mean, Bodybag, then there is indeed a better way of explaining it.

For every problem there is a solution that is simple, direct and wrong.

Um, what? As if there was no world in Fallout? Did we play the same game? It seems to me that you simply prefer first person.

I think your logic might be suicidal (what with all the leaping).

Fine, but it's a fallacy to claim that FP somehow "draws the player into a world" more than any other viewpoint. Just talk to fans of non-FPP games (maybe even to Fallout fans, LOL) and ask them whether their beloved game managed to draw them into the world. I'm sure they will say yes.

Call the fire dept... we have a jumper! Read back my post and, through quotes, show me where I made this argument. I dare you.

Just kidding, you can't (it's impossible). Since I'm a good sport, I'll clarify it a bit by telling you some stuff you should already know (since you know way more about Fallout than me ):

Of Fallout's many gameplay influences, the one I see most often cited was PnP gaming. I think "it was MEANT to emulate PnP!" is like the unofficial battle cry of Fallout 3 skepticism, right? Building the world through visual stimuli was not the focus. RIGHT?!

Once you put the game in RT FP, that stuff pretty much automatically becomes the focus, since you're seeing and hearing what the PC would. A nice ambient music track peppered with environmental touches like people laughing or typewriters clicking works in a low res 2D-ISO perspective game, because it both sets a tone and fills in some details that neither the graphics nor gameplay provide. At least in the case of Fallout, anyways.

None of that means a game has to be FPP to effectively draw you in, but if that's going to be your focus, which in Bethesda's case it certainly seems to be, then it's probably the most basic and efficient way of doing just that.

Once again, huh?? Why wouldn't they be? Ambient is not suited for FPP whereas orchestral is? What's your logic here?

Yeah, where IS my logic? It's apparently missing from your strawman (<------OHHHHH)

I'm not saying ambient is wrong for FPP, or even that orchestral is right. Science H. Technology, even Brother None is on the same basic page with me, and he hates it when we agree. I'm saying SPECIFICALLY the soundtrack for Fallout 1(&2) wouldn't work for a RT/FPP game that wasn't tailor made for it. Imagine you're in a 3D Vault 13 (rendered in Tim Cain's custom modified Cryengine II, if that helps) and you hear the typwriters clicking track from Fallout 1. Not coming from the actual people sitting 2 feet in front of you who are not typing, but from every direction regardless of where you're facing. Ok, stop imagining that, because it's lame. It worked for Fallout 1, though.

You really need to elaborate your points, else someone might, you know, misinterpret your motives

PSH, fat chance of that happening around HERE, buddy.

SpeaK makes an interesting point about pacing. Fast-paced music would indeed suit a fast-paced game. But Fallout isn't a fast-paced game. This, again, raises the issue of what Bethesda has envisioned for Fallout 3. Fast shooter or RPG that stays true to the originals?

It's not simply the pacing; it's the purpose. Fallout 3's soundtrack appears to have a much more specialized role than Fallout 1's, based on nothing more than the shift in perspective. Fallout 1's score was responsible for more of the IMMERSHUNZ, and Fallout 3's seems to zero in on emotional connection alone. Both make sense given the specific styles of games they belong to.

Of course, someone will no doubt make a "retro soundtrack" mod for Fallout 3, so you won't just have to take my word for it

 

[SpeaK]

Alright, good point Bodybag, having all kinds of weird ambient sounds (like the typewriter) coming from places would not fit FPP. So yeah, FO1 or FO2 soundtracks would probably not fit FINO3.

But still, nothing should stop the soundtrack for FINO3 from using electronic sounds to create the melodies / pads / effects, or at least orchestral & electronic together. This would have an effect on the feeling of the tracks (more fitting to a Fallout game), and STILL would work in FPP. Or why wouldn't it?

They'll most likely of course have ambient sounds coming from other sound layers not directly connected to the music anyways, which should add to the atmosphere. (environmental sounds etc. like uhhh.. the typewriter, but this time actually connected to someone being on a typewriter)

 

[fedaykin]

I think your logic might be suicidal (what with all the leaping).
*snip*
Call the fire dept... we have a jumper! Read back my post and, through quotes, show me where I made this argument. I dare you.

You really need to elaborate your points, else someone might, you know, misinterpret your motives

See, that's exactly what I meant by the latter quote. You wouldn't have to complain about people misinterpreting your arguments if you would only have stated them clearly and to the point in the first place

Though I still don't agree with you, nor BN, that the music from the originals won't fit F3. It's a matter of taste, in part. For someone who likes ambient, I'll work perfectly. The other part is that ambient music fits the setting quite well, I believe. Not that it's the only kind that could fit, but Oblivion style music would certainly not. Which is not the direction Zur is going in, thank god.

 

[MrBumble]

I think Bodybag has a point. Even though I wouldn't go as far as saying the entire Fallout 1/2 soundtracks wouldn't work in Fallout 3, some of the tracks such as the Vault 13 with the typewriters or the tracks used in combat during random encounters wouldn't work. Why ? Well, Bodybag explained it very well for the V13 track and as regards random encounters, well, I wouldn't imagine first person shooting action on a track THAT calm. Other tracks, such as the Necropolis track, which are entirely ambiant, completely devoid of "real world" sounds and elements such as radio communications and voices, might work rather well but then again we have not seen much of Fallout 3's environments. We have less than 20 screenshots I think, most of them visibly from the same areas ( Vault 101, Megaton, the outside of Megaton, random streets in Washington ).

 

[Brother None]

Though I still don't agree with you, nor BN, that the music from the originals won't fit F3. It's a matter of taste, in part.

I didn't say it wouldn't. I said it's a fairly sensible argument to say that since this is a different genre of gaming it needs a different soundtrack. It made sense that Zur worked on Tactics, and since F:BoS was a piece of shit it makes sense that it had a shitty soundtrack. I think it would've been worse if they had put Mark Morgan's work on that game, not better.

 

[whirlingdervish]

Wait.. you think FOBOS could have been worse?

 

[Brother None]

I think it would have been both insulting and unfitting if Mark Morgan's soundtrack were used for that game, yes.

Equally, I'm not sure if Mark's work would've worked for Tactics.

BoS and Tactics are both spin-offs. This is called a sequel, which I think explains the disgruntlement about Mark Morgan not doing the soundtrack. But as discussed many times before, the game might well be closer to a spin-off than a sequel. If it's a spin-off, why would it not make sense to have a different type of soundtrack?

 

[Bodybag]

Sequels don't necessarily need the same composer, incidentally. (note: If this somehow sparks a declaration along the lines of "what really made Fallout was the music" then I quit)

Otherwise I'll just stick to my position that Fallout 1's score is unique, effective, and memorable, but it's just not a FPRPG score.

And honest to god, after listening to this F3 music it's hard for me to not simply dismiss a majority of complaints as "it's bad because it's different." Because the music is pretty good, and (shockingly?!) fitting for the setting.

The Main Theme has elements from the first two Fallouts (and probably Tactics - I only ever played the demo, and it was only once) but the tone and complexity of it show an obvious shift from the original style. It's right up front that this is a different kind of game. I give it a thumbs up (with some additional points for honesty).

Megaton reminds me of TV's last great Sci FI show - Firefly, which, if you've never seen it, was basically "Fallout :in Space." Great fucking show. Good track.

Into the Wasteland sounds like Howard Shore fused with Enio Morricone, only way more subtle than either, and I fucking love it. "Oblivion with Guns" might make some of you nauseous, but "Spaghetti Western with Orcs" actually sounds like something I'd be interested in. Good track.

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

This is called a sequel, which I think explains the disgruntlement about Mark Morgan not doing the soundtrack. But as discussed many times before, the game might well be closer to a spin-off than a sequel. If it's a spin-off, why would it not make sense to have a different type of soundtrack?

You just answered that question - because it is being called a sequel. That is probably the main issue most people take with every element Bethesda has changed.

Sequels don't necessarily need the same composer, incidentally

Very true, but they do need to keep the same musical feel which sometimes can be as much a hallmark of a series as its visual style - picture a Star Wars game to the tune of Prodigy, or a Lord of the Rings one loaded with guitars. We're obviously not on the same degree of ludicrousness here, but there is a significant dissonance between Fallout's music and these tracks, as you point out yourself on this post.

Otherwise I'll just stick to my position that Fallout 1's score is unique, effective, and memorable, but it's just not a FPRPG score

I don't think anyone is proposing using the exact same soundtrack here, because the change in gameplay will of course have an impact. Still, it does not necessarily justify a major change in style; would it be absolutely impossible to make action-paced industrial, ambient stuff? (non-rethorical question, I don't listen to this kind of music at all)

it's hard for me to not simply dismiss a majority of complaints as "it's bad because it's different." Because the music is pretty good, and (shockingly?!) fitting for the setting

Oh, but it IS bad because it's different. How can it fit the setting if it is different in every way of the music in the only previous installments of the franchise (not counting spin-offs)?

Firefly, which, if you've never seen it, was basically "Fallout :in Space."

Actually, it is pretty much a live-action Cowboy Bebop rip-off. Which explains it being good.

"Oblivion with Guns" might make some of you nauseous, but "Spaghetti Western with Orcs" actually sounds like something I'd be interested in

I would be very interested on that. I'd even be interested in a post-apocalyptic fantasy (think "The Elder Scrolls Gaiden: Nuked by Magic"), but only if it's not peddled as being an actual sequel to a preexisting setting. Even Shadowrun can't cope with that big a clusterfuck of influences.

 

[Sander]

Oh, but it IS bad because it's different. How can it fit the setting if it is different in every way of the music in the only previous installments of the franchise (not counting spin-offs)?

Because it's fitting for the game they're making, even though it would not have been fitting for a full sequel.

But honestly, this music isn't that bad, even for a full Fallout game. Some things would be a bit unfitting and it isn't Mark Morgan, but it's quite solid overall.

 

[Morbus]

Sequels don't necessarily need the same composer, incidentally. (note: If this somehow sparks a declaration along the lines of "what really made Fallout was the music" then I quit)

The thing is, Fallout 3 is CALLED a sequel, but it's not. Big difference.

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

Because it's fitting for the game they're making, even though it would not have been fitting for a full sequel

I get that it fits Sellout 3, but that's not my point. This music does not fit the setting, which is comprised of Fallout 1 and 2, the only canon games in the franchise. In fact, it is another element that strays far from the originals, as you and most everyone have pointed out. As

it is being called a sequel. That is probably the main issue most people take with every element Bethesda has changed

It does not matter at all wether we think it's a "true" sequel or not, because it IS a sequel. And that's the whole reason the argument "just pretend it's a spin-off" didn't stand when used to question the fans' backlash, which it was so many times. I simply don't think it stands regarding the music, also.

 

[Sander]

I get that it fits Sellout 3, but that's not my point. This music does not fit the setting, which is comprised of Fallout 1 and 2, the only canon games in the franchise. In fact, it is another element that strays far from the originals, as you and most everyone have pointed out.

Please explain how it doesn't fit the *setting*. It isn't some action-filled rock soundtrack, nor is it an epic orchestral track. In fact, it's a relatively calm and neat ambient soundtrack.

I simply don't think it stands regarding the music, also.

Ehm, this is a rather stupid distinction to make. Fallout 3 is called a sequel, but the music of Fallout was hardly a core design element.

The score they have now is better for the game they're making. Criticising that score for being good for the game they're making while being bad for the game they're not making is really very silly. This really has nothing to do with it being a sequel - look at the elements that Bethesda has put in the game and judge whether the music fits *that*.

No, it doesn't fit Fallout 1. But it isn't for Fallout 1. The VATS combat, the perspective, the changed setting all show that.

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

Please explain how it doesn't fit the *setting*. It isn't some action-filled rock soundtrack, nor is it an epic orchestral track

It is orchestral, period, which is already by itself a big departure from the musical style associated with the setting. Also, "Main Theme", for a particularly significant instance, does take a turn for the epic, and really fast.

the music of Fallout was hardly a core design element

Absolutely true. Then again, so wasn't the very setting, as people used to argue with Bethesda when the shift to FPP was anounced; Fallout was a pen-and-paper emulating rpg, and would even have been medieval at one point. Should it be unnecessary for a sequel to use the same setting, as well?

Obviously, these two elements (setting and music) don't hold the same weight, but my point is that I don't think the core design is the only aspect that needs to be respected in a sequel. Hell, in this one it already flew out the window anyway.

Criticising that score for being good for the game they're making while being bad for the game they're not making is really very silly. This really has nothing to do with it being a sequel

It is pretty silly, yes. It's also not what I meant. As I said earlier, my opinion is that the music should first and foremost fit the setting, then the gameplay. I don't feel it does the former, however well it may do the latter.

Plus, hey, it wasn't me who started the whole sequel debate

 

[Sander]

It is orchestral, period, which is already by itself a big departure from the musical style associated with the setting.

No, the musical style associated with the *game*, not with the setting itself.

There is no music that is a part of the setting here, you only perceive it to be specific to the setting, while all we have is that it was specific to the game.

Obviously, these two elements (setting and music) don't hold the same weight, but my point is that I don't think the core design is the only aspect that needs to be respected in a sequel. Hell, in this one it already flew out the window anyway.

If you're changing one element of the game, then keeping another element of the game that was mostly good because of that first element is ridiculous.

 

[Bernard Bumner]

I have to agree that the only argument worth having is how fit this music is for its purpose, not whether it would necessarily fit well on a mix tape with the soundtrack for the originals.

The main theme always sounded wrong, in my opinion, being too epic and not dark enough. Fortunately, I would say that the other two tracks go a long way to reassuring me that it is the former which the abberation in that respect. However, I'm still slightly worried that the music may be a little intrusive, and slightly too obvious as soundtracking. In my mind, fully orchestrated music would be amongst the first casualities in a post-apocalyptic world ( - and don't think I don't recognise that a soundtrack is not a literal entity in the gameworld).

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

you only perceive it to be specific to the setting, while all we have is that it was specific to the game

Fair enough, it IS simply my perspective that both the setting and the music are somehow linked, and it may very well be wrong.

I just don't see why it would be stupid to consider the musical style associated with the setting while the visual style, for an instance, is an integral part of it. You can probably understand why someone with that mindset would equate the ambient/orchestral shift to the mutant/orc one.

If you're changing one element of the game, then keeping another element of the game that was mostly good because of that first element is ridiculous

Yeah, but we've established by now that to me, the camera is not that element; that would be the setting, which is still supposed to be in there, somewhere.