Is it possible?Economic collapse and War's brewing?

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by TorontoReign, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. paladin_lord

    paladin_lord It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Dec 12, 2011
    Fresh news, Kin Jong II passed on few days ago due heart attack, his son now was appointed to lead north Korea, according to some newspapers there is an international "'uneasiness" about that, some believe that the lad will encourage the already polemic nuclear project to a display of strength and patriotism to show the international community (or rather themselves i guess) that North Korea remains strong. Good or Bad ?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/world/asia/kim-jong-il-is-dead.html?pagewanted=all

    http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/world/archives/2011/12/20111219-110217.html
     
  2. gotithot

    gotithot First time out of the vault

    5
    Dec 20, 2011
    Nothing impossible to Chuck Norris. :) He can handle everything.
     
  3. JackBurton

    JackBurton First time out of the vault

    19
    Dec 14, 2011
    Hi folks,

    On the water matter... i think happens what happens in other fields of tecnological research, the real questions is... "who would it benefit?" or maybe more "how many benefit we lose from it?" Sad but true, that's what stops tecnology developement.

    On Kin Jong... man, are you really worried about it? i'm sure if you look closer you'll see bigger and real problems. Anyways i'm affraid of other countries being tooooooo much strong :evil: not really about Noth Korea :P

    This is Jack Burton in the Pork Chop Express, and I'm talkin' to whoever's listenin' out there.
     
  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    If you have 1. the technology and 2. some source for it.

    You cant make water out of thin air -water which you can "drink" to say that. On the other side. Its extremly expensive like Desalination one of the things they try to do is to find technologies which are efficient AND cheap/easy to use.

    If you dont have the economy or experience/technology it is rather difficult well impossible to achieve something which works on a larger scale.

    Take Egypt as example. They already have serious issues with water and it is going to be even worse in the next 50 years.

    There are already parts of the world where water is more expensive then oil. Though Oil is more important for our military then anything else. Most people could probably quite nicely exist without Oil if we use all the technology that is available. But the military would have more issues to replace all their equipment. Though the West requires those to ensure its dominance. Hence we see a huge "focus" in the media and on the political level on Oil as resurce. Oil for itself is not THAT important to our economy like some want us to believe. Those times are over. We still need it. But not anymore to survive. There are already new technologies available. Since the 1980s and 90s. Some of it is already in use.

    Its rather strange to talk about water as beint rare on a planet where 3/4 (or more ?) of the surface is covered by "water". Though if I remember correctly not even 1% of the water we have on the planet is water we can consider safe to drink. Even if it is not the ocean there are many other issues. Like diseases.

    Even in the western world we have finally to realize that drinkable water is an extremly valuable and "rare" commodity

    Though to make it even more worse not we (the west) waste most of our water for silly things but we let others do it for us. Like India where they spend tons of water on producing T-Shirts or "Coca Cola" - PRESS: Water Levels Continue Dropping Sharply Around Coca-Cola Plant in Kala Dera . And this is not something new. Similar for South America and a few other places always in areas where the people are already short on water.
     
  5. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 27, 2003
    I agree above.

    Oil was a major player in the industrial revolution and made many a baron rich. Those same barons then used their massive wealth to fund the military, the industrial complex for it to thrive on, cars for everyone, etc.

    Now what was just stated means a shit ton loads of jobs. Now imagine if all of a sudden we decided to switch to something else, in my eyes that means a huge and very expensive upheaval.

    Kind of like the bank bailouts, its the lesser of two evils it seems to me. The fallout from letting the banks collapse completely was worse than what it took to bail those fuckers out.
     
  6. paladin_lord

    paladin_lord It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Dec 12, 2011
    according to man's tradition i guess we would change to sustainable energy sources only when our traditional source is almost depleted, some say that oil is already scarce and that was one of the major reasons usa invaded iraq ... bolivia invaded a brazilian oil platform on its boarders ... perhaps the oil wars already started ... could it get worse ? who knows ...
     
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I doubt we will see that huge changes in the next 50 or 60 years regarding the stability and economy when it comes to Oil and until then I have no doubt that there will be more advanced technologies around and a much more efficient use of the existing resources. Remember in the 1950s and 60s they predicted that in 2000 we would have already no more Oil. Now they predict it for 2050 or 2060 ignoring completely the potential use of new technologies and better more efficient processing. For example just compare the newest cars with those of the 1950s and how much fuel they need for the same distance. Then we have as well more and more industries working on alternatives. Be it for plastic or even as fuel.

    Though that all of course will not stop organizations like the NATO or single nations to "secure" any source they can get their hands on. The resource war already started once the Sovietunion stoped to exist.
     
  8. paladin_lord

    paladin_lord It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Dec 12, 2011
    anyways .... i just hope that if there is indeed a new world war ... if that really happens ... i wish we were invaded by hostile aliens ... so in that case we would not be fighting each other ... but defending our home ... that is a noble thing to do, not waging war over petty interests ...
     
  9. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
  10. Sabirah

    Sabirah Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    930
    Jul 10, 2011
    China and the US need each other. Why would we get into a cold war?
     
  11. Yamu

    Yamu Le Fromage Vieux oTO Moderator Orderite

    Jul 26, 2003
    A cold war wouldn't be the worst thing for either country, in theory-- at least, not for those with money and power. For them, it would have all the benefits of an actual war with far fewer disadvantages. It would give the populace a common enemy, galvanizing them and making them easier to manipulate (which would chiefly be of benefit to the U.S. government, but would also interest China, who've had an increasing dissent problem with the propagation of social media and the maturation of a generation of youth connected to the world media and enamored by the consumer-capitalist way of life). It would provide an excuse for military buildup and for trillions of dollars in military spending, including the usual pork and unaccountable expenditures. It would probably lead to an expansion of the powers of the United States' intelligence agencies and curtailments of individual freedoms, a la The Patriot Act. And, best of all, no one would even have to write off any financial losses: unlike the cold war with the U.S.S.R., there would be no Iron Curtain this time, no looming Red Threat. Chinese and American businessmen would still be doing thousand-dollar business lunches with one another while China slipped spies into our tech sector and America sabotaged China's geopolitical interests by proxy.

    (I can say that last part with a measure of certainty, as it's already been happening for decades).

    I'm not saying that this is necessarily what will occur, but you asked why a cold war might occur, and there you have it. The world powers have an interest in stability, but too much peace kills the fear in a population and gives them a chance to start asking themselves questions about the way things are.
     
  12. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Dedman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/07/us-iran-idUSTRE8041RA20120107

    Things are getting interesting. Quite a few "wargames" near the Iranian border. Looks like a lot of posturing and bullshit. Iran stands no chance against the USA, and the USA needs to quit bullying around countries that are no threat. The United States needs to quit acting like a spoiled brat. Let Israel worry about Iran. They seem to be doing a good job of defending themselves without our help. How many years before we are involved in another pointless war? Maybe not pointless, but very misleading I should say. The only reason we are worried about Iran is because we want control of the oil in the Middle East. China is no threat to the United States. They are prone to Civil War and bouts of isolationism. I thought that they were, but I was wrong. North Korea is potentially dangerous if only because they can attack South Korea at any time. They pose no real threat to the USA. War usually boosts the economy though right?! Right!? I think the US should annex Canada personally......
     
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    though I doubt the US would really survive a war with Iran. They already are overstrained as is with their resources and military capabilities. And as long they don't go "total war everyone!" I don't see how they can pull of ANOTHER war like in Afghanistan and Iraq without serious damage to their economy. Remember. Wars have become pretty expensive.
     
  14. Sabirah

    Sabirah Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    930
    Jul 10, 2011
    If there is anything good about the economic crisis it is that. No more meddling in Dar al-Islam
     
  15. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Dedman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    You overestimate Irans antiquated military. We don't have to use our Army to fight them. We can pound them into submission with air strikes due to their lackluster air force. They pose no threat to the US. The United States Navy controls the oceans of the world with it's allies, or without them for that matter. The Army may be stretched thin, but private military contractors are good for post-war occupation. Trust me when I say that Iran is no REAL threat. They posture to gain leverage, and they threaten war if sanctions are used. I hate how much propaganda is spewed out about this stuff. It's all politics. The US has wanted to go to war with Iran for years, and they are looking for an excuse. I wouldn't be surprised if a false flag attack was staged at sea, and it wouldn't be the first time a government has done that. But what can you do?
     
  16. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Carbon Dated and Proud

    Feb 23, 2006
    It's a lot cheaper to just bomb them from the air and then not do any nation building.
     
  17. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Dedman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    The nation reconstruction is the expensive part. If you leave that out it's easier.
     
  18. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    Hm, just a few weeks back, Iran has successfuly developed an uranium fuel rods. Now they are enriching uranium on their own centrifugas and also they will be running some experimental reactor in Teheran. Theoreticaly, from now they are capable to produce plutonium. Let's hope IAEA is watching them really carefully.
     
  19. Yamu

    Yamu Le Fromage Vieux oTO Moderator Orderite

    Jul 26, 2003
    If Iran wants the bomb, there's no stopping their eventually getting it aside from bombing their facilities (a move otherwise known as the ol' Angry Israeli).

    I doubt they'd ever use them if they got them, though. Even a regime of oppressive nutjobs understands how world politics and MAD work, and anyone Iran would have both the desire and the capability to drop the bomb on would probably be someone we'd be obliged to turn the Ayatollah and everyone within several miles of him into vapor over. All nukes will mean for Tehran is a little more swagger at the bargaining table.
     
  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    riiiight. We heard that a few times in the past. No threat. Easy to win. Bombing them to hell. I guess Vietnam never happened. Why going that far back even?

    How have been things going in Afghanistan lately? Or Iraq ? I see they are great prospering nations now compared to before the wars !

    I am not thinking here about the military power of Iran in particular. But even the US with all its military and size is not some nation with unlimited resources. In political and military sense. Each son which did not managed to come home is one issue more for any politician which voted for any potential war with the Iran. And the issue here is sure not to "win" any military operation. The issue always comes what to do once those are over.

    Again. It would be better for the US to not do the same mistakes like in Iraq and Afghanistan again. They bomb those places and leave shit holes for centuries to come and they don't expect new problems to grow there for them ? Terrorism or "anti americanism" will find the best breeding ground in areas which are poor and without any stability. Particularly if those situations have been directly or indirectly caused by the US. Bombing a nation into oblivion usually was never a solution. There are way to many examples out there where it didn't helped (in the long run).

    And thats going to make things better how ? Bombing alone will sure not stop the ambitions of Iran to get their hands on nuclear weapons if that is what the US (and the rest of the world) want to avoid. Quite the opposite I think. The more the US is threatening the Iran with military actions the more likely is it that they will push their nuclear program and/or answer with actions from their side (like closing the trading route). Even if it is just not to lose their face.