Is NV too much NCR-Sided?

[DevilTakeMe]

The caste system that Caesar uses is highly effective. It took Caesar 30 years to amass a force capable of fighting the NCR which has been around for 300 years. Caesar has expressed that he wants to change his society once he destroys the bear. He doesn't really specify what change though, but he does want to bring on some. But point being if the caste system works this well (as in the fastest forming army in fallout history) then he should use it to get everyone alive in the wastes working together. The NCR is trying in the same manner to get everyone together, but they do not indoctrinate others as well as Caesar does.

Mille viae ducunt homines per saecula Romam - "A thousand roads forever lead men to Rome."

Caesar tells you that what he wants and what he needs is a Rome - a city and symbol around which to base his Empire. A central place for his idea of culture and society to take root and grow outward to the farthest corners of the empire. When you meet him, he compares himself to a barbarian king stalking around the gates of Rome.

One has to remember that Caesar claims that he is a son of Mars, like Romulus. And Romulus founded Rome, so Caesar, too, intends to found his own Rome.

Of course, Caesar has won other cities, from Flagstaff, AZ to Denver, CO, but none of them have given him what he really wants to make as his centerpiece for the Empire.

Whatever he is looking for, he believes he's found it in New Vegas.

That's really what's most important for Caesar's Legion to continue on after Edward Sallow - a symbol and structure for which the people will continue to follow. When the man is gone, the city he leaves behind carries on.

That's what Rome was in ancient history, and that's what Caesar is trying to accomplish by capturing New Vegas. Once he takes New Vegas, the implication is that Caesar will turn New Vegas into a New Rome. He will then transfer the cult of personality based around himself and then transplant it onto the city.

Instead of everyone following Caesar himself, he intends to make everyone want to be a "Roman" (or, perhaps a "Vegan?") by building up New Vegas as the center of the world for the Empire.

 

[GatheringCircle]

I thank you for your oppression explanation, but if both genders are forced into one caste and both are punished if they want to do something else, then it isn't favoring one gender over the other. And while Hitler had some success he also started with much more than Caesar had to begin with so Caesar is even better than Hitler, from a military standpoint of course

[Edit] read with sarcasm

 

[killerfurball]

I think the point about New Vegas becoming Nova Roma is a pretty valid point. Vegas already (as depicted in the game) has an attraction to people. Cesar has done a remarkable job at nation building and his structure, so far, has yielded results even if the means leave somewhat to be desired.

Really I do want to stress a point here. The wasteland is depicted, in every game, to be very very brutal. Cesar's methods for passification do indeed have merit in this world. You can argue against the usefulness of using force to combat force, but considering the world in which the game takes place Cesar's rational makes sense. Stamp out possibly violent opposition with overwhelming force. Then attempt to preempt any futures signs of rebellion with indoctrination.

The NCR takes the opposite approach by trying to show an idealistic world and make you want to join. It's an example of soft power vs hard power. The NCR (as shown in FO2 and NV) has had problems with the application of this soft power. The attempts to undermine Vault City safety with the deal with New Reno. Covert attempts to eliminate House to try and force the annexation of New Vegas to deter Legion aggression. As much as you might cite the NCR for being a democratic republic, they have shown they will use force (or the perceived threat of force from themselves or others) in order to force someone to join them.

Women do seem to have problems with the Legion, something the NCR has been exploiting. The caste system is going to create friction over time but it remains to be seen how much Cesar would liberalize the Legion if successful at New Vegas. It is quite possible he would follow a more Roman point of view after he captures New Vegas with slow assimilation of conquered peoples and integration into the empire. This is of course speculation. Cesar has not shown true Roman style political leanings by the playing of one side off against another, he tends to favor brute force. The NCR, though, has shown the ability on several occasions.

 

[Quagmire69]

And Hitler managed it in 6 years

Hitler and Caesar are two completely different leadership styles. Hilter was an intuitive leader, he declared war when he felt he would win, sometimes this worked, sometimes it did'nt. I think Hitlers problem was at a certain point he started to believe the myths he created about himself and really started to think destiny was on his side, Caesar on the other hand thinks he will win because his system is superior to the NCR's.

 

[Quagmire69]

I mean, I'm going to be honest here. I'm a woman and for me there's nothing redeeming about the Legion. It is a society that oppresses half its' population because of its' gender and then goes on to oppress many more for being of the wrong "caste". Your idea about the Legion as humanity's best hope is woefully misguided and to me reeks of facism glorification.

theirs nothing in the game about how they treat women are are part of Legion society. iamb sure the wife of a Legion officer is far better off then a male slave.

I also don't think iamb promoting the glory of fascism, maybe justifying it as a necessary evil, but I see no glory in it.

 

[Walpknut]

Yeah, they go from slaves to personal whores of one Legion Officer, that's pretty good.

 

[Nalano]

theirs nothing in the game about how they treat women are are part of Legion society. iamb sure the wife of a Legion officer is far better off then a male slave.

I think you have a very odd conception of what women want in life.

"Hrm... freedom and gender equality, or two flavors of human chattel? Choices, choices..."

And there is plenty in the game on how they treat women. They're slaves. Hell, the only women from the far side of the Colorado river who talk to you - after expressing surprise, if you're female, that they're speaking to a free woman - tell you that they are systematically oppressed, used at will by men, and are actively barred from education.

 

[Tank Girl]

These pro-Legion arguments are completely irrelevant for a female courier.

 

[Ben]

These pro-Legion arguments are completely irrelevant for a female courier.

I figured that a pro-Legion female courier would end up as Caesar or Lanius' wife

 

[Joelzania]

You know... I was looking at cottonwood cove the other day and then saw that truck with the nuclear waste in it. They put in the game a method to kill basically everyone in a fairly large legion camp, and they don't really make a big deal of it, but the option is always there. Why isn't there something like this for the NCR? I mean, it's pretty ridiculous that no one would decide to move the giant truck of death from the one foothold they have in Nevada, but you just can't do this for any different location in the game. A little one sided, me thinks.

 

[Lexx]

Well, the legion used nuclear stuff to kill everyone in Camp Searchlight. The truck is there, so you can use it against them: eye for an eye.

 

[GatheringCircle]

I think you have a very odd conception of what women want in life.

"Hrm... freedom and gender equality, or two flavors of human chattel? Choices, choices..."

And there is plenty in the game on how they treat women. They're slaves. Hell, the only women from the far side of the Colorado river who talk to you - after expressing surprise, if you're female, that they're speaking to a free woman - tell you that they are systematically oppressed, used at will by men, and are actively barred from education.

First, obviously since all the teachers in the Legion are women (priestesses), they are hardly barred from education. Siri is a profligate women, so she is made into a slave, because she can't indoctrinate children if she herself isn't indoctrinated.

Second, what do you want the Legion to do with the women they capture? Kill them like the men? The Legion uses whatever it can and destroys whatever it cannot use. They are militaristic unlike the NCR, which is a republic (edit: ancient Rome was sexist in the same way Caesar's Legion is and had temporary dictatorships, so it is hardly like the NCR) in the middle of the apocalypse, the success the NCR has is not realistic with what has happened to similar civilizations in history. So ultimately the Fallout world is very NCR biased.

 

[Quagmire69]

success the NCR has is not realistic

Your forgetting that the NCR was a dictaitorship for most of its history. After Tandi died things went downhill.

 

[White Knight]

success the NCR has is not realistic

Your forgetting that the NCR was a dictaitorship for most of its history. After Tandi died things went downhill.

No it was a democracy. Your forgetting that the people of the NCR could've voted for somebody else at any time. In fact there is an ending for fallout 2 where Tandi is voted out of office, and the only reason it didn't happen is because of the Chosen One. Here are the quotes from the vault.

The failure of diplomacy at Vault 15 slows the New California Republic's growth into the north. Embarrassed by the failure, President Tandi is replaced by Roger Westin. When the new government finally returns to Vault 15, they find nothing but a ghost town

 

[DevilTakeMe]

It was always a democracy, and then something of a republic later on as they put together the Senate.

Caesar thought of Tandi as a queen because the people venerated her to the point where no one dared to elect her out of office, and he twisted that ideal as part of his modus operandi regarding setting up the Legion.

 

[Quagmire69]

Caesar thought of Tandi as a queen because the people venerated her to the point where no one dared to elect her out of office, and he twisted that ideal as part of his modus operandi regarding setting up the Legion.

Julius Ceasar was a beloved dictaitor as were many Kings and Emporers throughout history, does'nt make Ivan the Terrible a democratic leader.

 

[White Knight]

Caesar thought of Tandi as a queen because the people venerated her to the point where no one dared to elect her out of office, and he twisted that ideal as part of his modus operandi regarding setting up the Legion.

Julius Ceasar was a beloved dictaitor as were many Kings and Emporers throughout history, does'nt make Ivan the Terrible a democratic leader.

That dosen't make any sense. Your saying that even though Ivan Terrible was loved by his people, that still dosen't make him a democratic leader? Being loved by the people dosen't make you a democratic leader, being voted in does, which is how Tandi became president. Caesar was only comparing her to a queen due to the length she stayed in office.

 

[DevilTakeMe]

Caesar thought of Tandi as a queen because the people venerated her to the point where no one dared to elect her out of office, and he twisted that ideal as part of his modus operandi regarding setting up the Legion.

Julius Ceasar was a beloved dictaitor as were many Kings and Emporers throughout history, does'nt make Ivan the Terrible a democratic leader.

Broken comparison.

Julius Caesar was elected consul before he became a dictator, where he was re-elected to the office of dictator a few times before becoming dictator perpetuo which preceded that Ides of March thing. It's his adopted son and successor, Octavius/Augustus Caesar who really bypassed most of that democratic stuff.

The Tsars of Russia by the time of Ivan the Terrible, were firmly a monarchy with hereditary succession, upon his death, was succeeded by Feodor. No elections involved whatsoever.

Tandi was just constantly voted in as President over and over again. Edward Sallow (Caesar) likens himself to that sort of cult of personality.

 

[bluejupiter1]

They are militaristic unlike the NCR, which is a republic (edit: ancient Rome was sexist in the same way Caesar's Legion is and had temporary dictatorships, so it is hardly like the NCR) in the middle of the apocalypse, the success the NCR has is not realistic with what has happened to similar civilizations in history. So ultimately the Fallout world is very NCR biased.

I hate to tell you this, but the United States grew as a republic, during a time when everybody in the world was gunning for control of North America, very similar to New Vegas. The NCR grew in a relatively safe environment, growing past the small tribal stage, where it enemies, for the most part, remained. They then expanded, AFTER building up a base of power.

The U.S. grew in a hostile world against the Big Three powers aka Spain, Britain, and France. It had to hit the ground running so to speak, and had to make itself a power. The NCR was in a world with very little outside powers, and had time to make itself a power. So your view of saying the NCR's success is not realistic is false. I do agree though the Fallout world is biased...

 

[GatheringCircle]

They are militaristic unlike the NCR, which is a republic (edit: ancient Rome was sexist in the same way Caesar's Legion is and had temporary dictatorships, so it is hardly like the NCR) in the middle of the apocalypse, the success the NCR has is not realistic with what has happened to similar civilizations in history. So ultimately the Fallout world is very NCR biased.

I hate to tell you this, but the United States grew as a republic, during a time when everybody in the world was gunning for control of North America, very similar to New Vegas. The NCR grew in a relatively safe environment, growing past the small tribal stage, where it enemies, for the most part, remained. They then expanded, AFTER building up a base of power.

The U.S. grew in a hostile world against the Big Three powers aka Spain, Britain, and France. It had to hit the ground running so to speak, and had to make itself a power. The NCR was in a world with very little outside powers, and had time to make itself a power. So your view of saying the NCR's success is not realistic is false. I do agree though the Fallout world is biased...

North America was of little concern for the powers who held territories there, because the US occupied their land when they were fighting somebody else. Britain a monarchy had an empire across continents, an achievement that the US has yet to replicate. In revolutionary times Britain had far far greater threats than some pissant colonists. The US was fighting countries that were based on another continent in the age of sail of course we could survive. Need I remind you that the Us engaged in some Legion-esque tactics when dealing with the Natives such as raping their women.

Look at Prussia if you want a country that had to hit the ground running. It had half of Europe fighting it at times and still managed to gain territory, all under a monarchy.