Is NV too much NCR-Sided?

[Alphadrop]

The US was fighting countries that were based on another continent

Canada?

Also out of interest why do you stress monarchy so much? Britain was a constitutional monarchy with pretty much everything run by Parliment at the time of the War of Independance and Prussia was pretty much a military autocracy during it's golden years.

 

[GatheringCircle]

I was stressing any government that was not a republic or democracy my examples just happened to be monarchies. And while Britain controlled Canada the majority of its military was still on another continent. And these countries all had other conflicts to deal with while the US could occupy their territories. That hardly proves a republic can be successful in deplorable conditions like a nuclear apocalypse.

 

[bluejupiter1]

North America was of little concern for the powers who held territories there, because the US occupied their land when they were fighting somebody else. Britain a monarchy had an empire across continents, an achievement that the US has yet to replicate. In revolutionary times Britain had far far greater threats than some pissant colonists. The US was fighting countries that were based on another continent in the age of sail of course we could survive. Need I remind you that the Us engaged in some Legion-esque tactics when dealing with the Natives such as raping their women.

Look at Prussia if you want a country that had to hit the ground running. It had half of Europe fighting it at times and still managed to gain territory, all under a monarchy.

If you have ever read a U.S. history book, it explains that Spain, France, and Britain had extreme interest in North America. Spain wanted to spread Catholicism, France wanted the trade, as did Britain. All three wanted the resources there. Later France, under Napoleon, wanted to have a New World Empire.

The U.S. was caught in between the largest navy in the world and the largest army in thew world (Britain and France respectively). The British were still a little bitter about the colonies throwing off the yoke, and the French were angry the U.S. would not join their side in the war between France and Britain during the 1800's. While yes, Prussia was founded in Europe during the whole Europe being Europe thing, it eventually failed. The U.S. is still around. A little strange don't you think?

 

[Ilosar]

Britain a monarchy had an empire across continents, an achievement that the US has yet to replicate.

Nuh-uh. The United States, as of today, have at least as much influence in the world as the British did at the height of their Empire. You don't need to have your soldiers patrolling a country to keep it under your control, hell it's not really a good way to do so these days. Puppet governments, shadowy influence and controlling purse strings is at least as much if not more important. So it's not a very valid comparison.

Need I remind you that the Us engaged in some Legion-esque tactics when dealing with the Natives such as raping their women.

And breeding warriors and indoctrinating them and making women second class and charging in battle with machetes and establishing personality cults... Actually no that is another botched comparison.

Look at Prussia if you want a country that had to hit the ground running. It had half of Europe fighting it at times and still managed to gain territory, all under a monarchy.

You mean, the nation that united Germany while it's major player was Chancellor Bismarck? And became a (ta-dam!) Republic after it's... adventures with... other systems proved kinda disastrous?

Canada?

Hey, don't diss us. We have Blue Helmets and stuff. And our government buys 35 billion $'s worth of attack jets even the US deem too expensive while claiming we must tighten social spendings to heal the economy. Sorry, had to get it off my chest, rant over.

I was stressing any government that was not a republic or democracy my examples just happened to be monarchies. And while Britain controlled Canada the majority of its military was still on another continent. And these countries all had other conflicts to deal with while the US could occupy their territories. That hardly proves a republic can be successful in deplorable conditions like a nuclear apocalypse.

Correction, almost a full century after a nuclear apocalypse. The case of the US not having wars on their territories is somewhat true, but many governments that have democratic governments today (which are republic by definition) have been at war while they were, to varying degrees of success maybe, but it doesn't mean Republics cannot maintain a war. Indeed, the nationalism, strong economy, defiant citizenry and solid institutions a Republic enjoys are useful in cases of war. A democratic governent does have difficulty coping with a long-lasting, draining war, since these are usually much less popular.

 

[GatheringCircle]

Damn it ilsolar go away. I was having fun

Nuh-uh. The United States, as of today, have at least as much influence in the world as the British did at the height of their Empire. You don't need to have your soldiers patrolling a country to keep it under your control, hell it's not really a good way to do so these days. Puppet governments, shadowy influence and controlling purse strings is at least as much if not more important. So it's not a very valid comparison.

I don't think the US really controls anybody except barely themselves. The British Empire destroyed other countries, the US hardly engages in such activities

And breeding warriors and indoctrinating them and making women second class and charging in battle with machetes and establishing personality cults... Actually no that is another botched comparison.

Yes I said Legion-esque as in raping the women of foreign cultures obviously the colonists didn't replicate every Legion "tactic".

You mean, the nation that united Germany while it's major player was Chancellor Bismarck? And became a (ta-dam!) Republic after it's... adventures with... other systems proved kinda disastrous?

All the systems Germany has used have ended in a bad way for them. Under a republic they lost WW1 and under a dictatorship they lost WW2. Although it took a dictator to beat one in WW2.

Go away please these posts take a lot of thinking power and it hurts.

 

[Ilosar]

Damn it ilsolar go away. I was having fun

But I am having fun right now

I don't think the US really controls anybody except barely themselves. The British Empire destroyed other countries, the US hardly engages in such activities

Destroyed? Yeah the Commonwealth is composed of such poor countries. I would call Irak far worse off than most countries under British rule. And to say the US barely control themselves is a bit ludicrous when a crisis that afftects them affects most of the world's economic system, and when they have an army with such incredible power available to them. A shame their leaders are too retarded to use it properly.

Yes I said Legion-esque as in raping the women of foreign cultures obviously the colonists didn't replicate every Legion "tactic".

US colonists did rape women, but it wasn't quasi-institutionalized like in the Legion. For the Native it was, as much as I loathe to say it, an added bonus because of what they were. For the Legion it's merely business, standard operating procedure.

All the systems Germany has used have ended in a bad way for them. Under a republic they lost WW1 and under a dictatorship they lost WW2. Although it took a dictator to beat one in WW2.

Yeah, being a democracy is so bad for Germany, with them being an economic leader and an extremely advanced State in terms of social services and technology.

Go away please these posts take a lot of thinking power and it hurts.

Then I am glad to have been of service today.

The U.S. was caught in between the largest navy in the world and the largest army in thew world (Britain and France respectively). The British were still a little bitter about the colonies throwing off the yoke, and the French were angry the U.S. would not join their side in the war between France and Britain during the 1800's. While yes, Prussia was founded in Europe during the whole Europe being Europe thing, it eventually failed. The U.S. is still around. A little strange don't you think?

Also, this. Let's not forget the US survived a brutal civil war and change of ways (which Democracies can withstand better than almost any other regime) and that Washington was burned in 1812.

 

[GatheringCircle]

Destroyed? Yeah the Commonwealth is composed of such poor countries. I would call Irak far worse off than most countries under British rule. And to say the US barely control themselves is a bit ludicrous when a crisis that afftects them affects most of the world's economic system, and when they have an army with such incredible power available to them. A shame their leaders are too retarded to use it properly.

The commonwealth isn't what I was referencing. In British history surely they have annexed territory and began to rule its citizen. Even if they didn't destroy countries the Commonwealth still at one time in history ruled over countries and used force to make it will known. Of course they don't now they are a democracy. And what do you mean by the US not using its army effectively, by your standards anything achieved by force is bad right?

US colonists did rape women, but it wasn't quasi-institutionalized like in the Legion. For the Native it was, as much as I loathe to say it, an added bonus because of what they were. For the Legion it's merely business, standard operating procedure.

Fair enough.

Yeah, being a democracy is so bad for Germany, with them being an economic leader and an extremely advanced State in terms of social services and technology.

The Germans had all those things under Hitler as well. The system of government doesn't seem to matter with Germany, but its dictators and kings have certainly gained it the most territory and fought the most successful wars.

Also, this. Let's not forget the US survived a brutal civil war and change of ways (which Democracies can withstand better than almost any other regime) and that Washington was burned in 1812.

I agree with you that democracies survive Civil Wars, but in the Legion such a thing couldn't happen in the first place.

 

[Sabirah]

I agree with you that democracies survive Civil Wars, but in the Legion such a thing couldn't happen in the first place.

Some of the strongest and best nations in history (Gupta empire, Rome itself) have fallen to civil wars. Rome was defeated by internal strife making the population dis-unified and weak. The same can happen to the legion.

 

[GatheringCircle]

I agree with you that democracies survive Civil Wars, but in the Legion such a thing couldn't happen in the first place.

Some of the strongest and best nations in history (Gupta empire, Rome itself) have fallen to civil wars. Rome was defeated by internal strife making the population dis-unified and weak. The same can happen to the legion.

The Roman Republic fell by civil war and the Empire sprung up. When the empire failed to assimilate every new culture, the Christians being a prime example, the empire fell. You are exactly right the Legion must, to an extent, continue to do what it is doing now to succeed.

 

[bluejupiter1]

Also, this. Let's not forget the US survived a brutal civil war and change of ways (which Democracies can withstand better than almost any other regime) and that Washington was burned in 1812.

We didn't really change we just respected states rights.

 

[Nalano]

Also, this. Let's not forget the US survived a brutal civil war and change of ways (which Democracies can withstand better than almost any other regime) and that Washington was burned in 1812.

We didn't really change we just respected states rights.

I dare say the civil war was a prime example of the success of federal fiat over states' rights.

And thank god for that.

 

[Ilosar]

And what do you mean by the US not using its army effectively, by your standards anything achieved by force is bad right?

Let's bring up two examples. Lybia is an example of force done right (at least so far); helping the locals oust the asshole in place, so that they in debt towards you, and are not assholes themselves. Note this is not a strictly US operation, but NATO as a whole, but whatevs. Now take Irak; go balls-out on the country, destroy most of it, and antagonize everybody. Congratulation, you now have a shitfest that will take decades to put together, while doing jack-shit to help you in the process, and will think twice before looking up to you in the future 'cause you put them in a state of civil war. But who cares, AMERICA FUCK YEAH and all that jazz, right?

The commonwealth isn't what I was referencing. In British history surely they have annexed territory and began to rule its citizen. Even if they didn't destroy countries the Commonwealth still at one time in history ruled over countries and used force to make it will known.

Which is vastly different from destroying these civilizations. Mostly, they crushed those who were out of line, but left the rest in peace and in their own culture so long as they paid tribute and all. No indoctrination, slavery (after it was abolished anyways) or sexism required. And it's still the largest Empire ever built by mankind.

The Germans had all those things under Hitler as well. The system of government doesn't seem to matter with Germany, but its dictators and kings have certainly gained it the most territory and fought the most successful wars.

If you count Bismark and the Federal Republic as kings and emperors. And somehow I am not sure them N@zis had developed social services, or even basic stuff like the interests of their people at anything near heart.

I agree with you that democracies survive Civil Wars, but in the Legion such a thing couldn't happen in the first place.

Oh, that's rich. We already know at least one Centurion (Silus) that almost deserted because he felt things didn't go right. What's stopping us from assuming dissent will eventually grow, especially when the Ceasar isn't around (it's not like he can keep daily tabs on people 4 States away when he is at the frontlines with communications and transportation being limited to runners). Again, you assume natural human behavior doesn't apply to the Legion. Their indoctrination takes effect, but they are still humans, not automatons.

The Roman Republic fell by civil war and the Empire sprung up. When the empire failed to assimilate every new culture, the Christians being a prime example, the empire fell. You are exactly right the Legion must, to an extent, continue to do what it is doing now to succeed.

Because the Empire didn't face internal strife? And while new cultures certainly did their part, to blame the fall of the Empire on them is short-sighted. Things were going south as soon as Rome was a huge Empire without strong leaders like Augustus to lead them. No matter how brutal the culture, internal conflicts has always existed and will always exist. You can't simply beat ambition out of people, because that's what makes them seek success in most cases in the first place. And I never questionned the efficiency of destroying cultures for an Empire, only the need to have this done when it has been proven that governments can thrive without this policy, in the merciless Fallout universe even.

And I don't know quite enough about American history to start discussing Federal/State rights, I know these issues are at least as complex down south as they are here in Canada.[/quote]

 

[TorontoReign]

I agree with you that democracies survive Civil Wars, but in the Legion such a thing couldn't happen in the first place.

Some of the strongest and best nations in history (Gupta empire, Rome itself) have fallen to civil wars. Rome was defeated by internal strife making the population dis-unified and weak. The same can happen to the legion.

The Roman Republic fell by civil war and the Empire sprung up. When the empire failed to assimilate every new culture, the Christians being a prime example, the empire fell. You are exactly right the Legion must, to an extent, continue to do what it is doing now to succeed.

Didn't the barbarians contribute to Romes demise in it's weakened state? I don't think it was Rome failing to assimilate as much as shitty leadership.The main problem with the Legion is once Caesar bites the dust the Empire collapses just like the Mongols.

 

[Crni Vuk]

the reasons are very complex and fill quite a few history books. You have internal conflicts and of course powers from outside the empire (pax romana). Though many think that growing decadence played a huge role as well.

 

[Alphadrop]

Canada?

Hey, don't diss us. We have Blue Helmets and stuff. And our government buys 35 billion $'s worth of attack jets even the US deem too expensive while claiming we must tighten social spendings to heal the economy. Sorry, had to get it off my chest, rant over.

Actually I wasn't, people just seem to forget the war of 1812 is all.

 

[Tank Girl]

These pro-Legion arguments are completely irrelevant for a female courier.

I figured that a pro-Legion female courier would end up as Caesar or Lanius' wife

Nice. Stay indoors dutifully doing mundane chores and small tasks, looking after the kids, relaxing with some knitting and embroidery, submissive and loyal and permanently pregnant.

That sounds like a fun adventure.

 

[bluejupiter1]

And I don't know quite enough about American history to start discussing Federal/State rights, I know these issues are at least as complex down south as they are here in Canada.

[/quote]

States rights are just so fun haha. I suspect the NCR will eventually deal with these issues.

 

[Quagmire69]

Destroyed? Yeah the Commonwealth is composed of such poor countries. I would call Irak far worse off than most countries under British rule.

Why don't you go into an Irish pub, go up to the biggist guy thier and tell him about the virtues of the British commonwealth.

 

[Ben]

These pro-Legion arguments are completely irrelevant for a female courier.

I figured that a pro-Legion female courier would end up as Caesar or Lanius' wife

Nice. Stay indoors dutifully doing mundane chores and small tasks, looking after the kids, relaxing with some knitting and embroidery, submissive and loyal and permanently pregnant.

That sounds like a fun adventure.

No, knitting football pads together and getting those decanus feathers to fluff just right

 

[Ilosar]

Why don't you go into an Irish pub, go up to the biggist guy thier and tell him about the virtues of the British commonwealth.

Why don't you go to the US Marines and tell them about the virtues of living in a non-democratic country? The hell kind of argument is that. I shouldn't even have honored this with a response.