Thomas de Aynesworth
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
I recall my biology professor mentioning something about building a "dirty bomb" out of 10,000 of those babies and some TNT.Little Robot said:
Isn't FEV a bit dumb?
- Thread starter White Knight
- Start date
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
Why am I just learning of this now?Thomas de Aynesworth said:
White Knight
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Only recently my physics did a demonstation using radioactive materials. The gamma radiation one did about 5000 counts in 15 seconds. And thats a small piece.
Requete
First time out of the vault
Washington DC was hit by combination of neutron bombs and some realy dirt cobalt ones, That explains why the infrastructure is intact and lands around it still barren and radiated. I read somewhere that only top govement, military and VT bunkers were radiation proof, the rest were basicly deathtraps ala vault 12. Feral ghuls must be the poor buggers cought in CD shelters or metro tunnels, and from the memories of sane Ghouls the process took from two to three weeks not hours.
A possible explanation for the large amounts of feral ghouls: The city of D.C., being the capital, would have been a prime target for the Chinese forces. It was hit more, resulting in a large dose of radiation and turning a large part of the population into the ghouls we know. Then as time went on, the minds of ghouls started to detiorate and collapse, so by 2277, the large amounts of ghouls created by the nuclear bomb, coupled with the long years and a slow decline of human behaviour results in feral ghouls being as common as squirrels or rabbits. I hope this makes sense to someone other than me.
Surf Solar
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
The best possible explanation is, that "zombies are cool" and thus bethesda placed them in.
Sounds like you're planning to build a "dirty" bomb.erlkaarik said:My smoke alarm contains some americum isotope.
Not sure, i think Americum-43
He..He..HeHe...HeHeHe...HeHeHeHeHe...HeHeHeHeHeHeHeHe... Ameri-Cum
Jesse Heinig
First time out of the vault
Notably, Fallout (as a franchise) has a lot of post facto development. The whole notion of the Vaults-as-experiments was largely introduced in Fallout 2, after all. If Fallout says that ghouls were products of huge overexposure to radiation, Fallout 2 hints that maybe some FEV is involved, and Fallout 3 says that there is also a mysterious X-factor (which is how they get the Lesser Rad Orb power, I guess), it's quite possibly just another case of post facto design: "No, wait, you thought it was this, but it's actually this other thing!"
I have a strong suspicion that FEV was not central to the ghouls in FO1, and here's why: FEV is an important plot point; the dip that the Master uses to create Super Mutants is a type of FEV cocktail. If FEV is that central to the story, then having another group that's FEV-affected -- the ghouls -- would mean that this connection should be somehow important. Dramatically, you can't just drop in a group that has some sort of tie to the central "prime mover" of the story's villains and then fail to explore it. I don't recall ever seeing any cut documentation for design of ghouls that would talk about FEV or their connection to the whole evolutionary project -- even as a failure or unintended side-effect -- which means that when the ghouls were first conceptualized, they probably didn't have an FEV connection. Instead, the importance of the ghouls is partly symbolic (as a prior poster pointed out, they show the burned-out remnants of humanity living among the burned-out remnants of the world) and partly as a moral dilemma for players who are given the choice to steal the source of the ghouls' fresh water and thereby placed in the position of pitting the interests of the home (Vault 13) community versus the community of "subhumans and monsters." The ghouls can stand on their own in that regard -- and the fact that they have a society shows that they are a self-contained story element; in a sense, ghouls are like the ultimate victims in Fallout: They are always getting a raw deal, first from flesh-rotting ghoulification, but then from Super Mutants, "smoothskins," even the damn trees. If FEV were responsible for ghoulification, then, it would be important to explore this plot thread. Since it was never explored, even in any design doc that I remember reading . . . probably wasn't an initial impetus.
That doesn't make it any less valid now, of course, if you can find an interesting way to tell a story about it while retaining internal consistency (in the same way that Zelazny does in his Amber novels, where it seems that every few chapters he turns your expectations of the world upside down while still retaining his own consistency).
I have a strong suspicion that FEV was not central to the ghouls in FO1, and here's why: FEV is an important plot point; the dip that the Master uses to create Super Mutants is a type of FEV cocktail. If FEV is that central to the story, then having another group that's FEV-affected -- the ghouls -- would mean that this connection should be somehow important. Dramatically, you can't just drop in a group that has some sort of tie to the central "prime mover" of the story's villains and then fail to explore it. I don't recall ever seeing any cut documentation for design of ghouls that would talk about FEV or their connection to the whole evolutionary project -- even as a failure or unintended side-effect -- which means that when the ghouls were first conceptualized, they probably didn't have an FEV connection. Instead, the importance of the ghouls is partly symbolic (as a prior poster pointed out, they show the burned-out remnants of humanity living among the burned-out remnants of the world) and partly as a moral dilemma for players who are given the choice to steal the source of the ghouls' fresh water and thereby placed in the position of pitting the interests of the home (Vault 13) community versus the community of "subhumans and monsters." The ghouls can stand on their own in that regard -- and the fact that they have a society shows that they are a self-contained story element; in a sense, ghouls are like the ultimate victims in Fallout: They are always getting a raw deal, first from flesh-rotting ghoulification, but then from Super Mutants, "smoothskins," even the damn trees. If FEV were responsible for ghoulification, then, it would be important to explore this plot thread. Since it was never explored, even in any design doc that I remember reading . . . probably wasn't an initial impetus.
That doesn't make it any less valid now, of course, if you can find an interesting way to tell a story about it while retaining internal consistency (in the same way that Zelazny does in his Amber novels, where it seems that every few chapters he turns your expectations of the world upside down while still retaining his own consistency).
Wow, thanks for the in-depth explanation. It certainly helped with all the assumptions (although it seems like this thread had just largely devolved into talking about smoke detectors 
).
).
Yeah, thanks Jesse.
Another developer's opinion and explanation really means a lot. It cerainly changes many of my previous viewpoints.
Another developer's opinion and explanation really means a lot. It cerainly changes many of my previous viewpoints.
Wintermind
Vault Senior Citizen
For DC, the obvious, logical conclusion, is that zombies are cool and feral ghouls are zombies. That's a sufficient logical leap.
If I were to actually explain it to defend to Beth/the ferals, I'd say that the population of ferals underground was that they were folks who were trapped in metro cars underground, eventually breaking out or being released by scavengers. They attack things that aren't ghoulified as a sort of basic self defense thing, and somehow other ghousl, despite the fact they're otherwise similar to unghoulifieds, based solely on scent or something similar.
I'd also say that ghouls turn feral between a mix of psychological factors as well as physical. Physically, the sustenance they get from food and such replaces/prolongs the damage done to them. Likewise, some are just unlucky and their body can't compete with the damage and they go feral. Psychologically, there would be some psychological explanation that I wouldn't know about what with not being a psychologist.
The glowing ones and the other 'special ghouls' are just dumb, though. The only things glowing ones should do is glow, making them easier targets.
Personally, I think it would be better to assume that most ghouls don't go feral, but, like most things in the wastes, will as soon as kill you as look at you because you'd do the same to them.
If I were to actually explain it to defend to Beth/the ferals, I'd say that the population of ferals underground was that they were folks who were trapped in metro cars underground, eventually breaking out or being released by scavengers. They attack things that aren't ghoulified as a sort of basic self defense thing, and somehow other ghousl, despite the fact they're otherwise similar to unghoulifieds, based solely on scent or something similar.
I'd also say that ghouls turn feral between a mix of psychological factors as well as physical. Physically, the sustenance they get from food and such replaces/prolongs the damage done to them. Likewise, some are just unlucky and their body can't compete with the damage and they go feral. Psychologically, there would be some psychological explanation that I wouldn't know about what with not being a psychologist.
The glowing ones and the other 'special ghouls' are just dumb, though. The only things glowing ones should do is glow, making them easier targets.
Personally, I think it would be better to assume that most ghouls don't go feral, but, like most things in the wastes, will as soon as kill you as look at you because you'd do the same to them.
As far as i know ZAX said in Fallout 1 that FEV isn't airborne , the original one used to make super human soldiers and made Master .
Enclave tried to make it an airborne death cloud , a forced execution virus .
But Master had psychic powers which is really interesting considering that FEV adds up to the body physique and not actual mind powers . I would like to have an explanation on that .
Radiation is everywhere on the other hand . Don't see why would anyone think ghouls are made from FEV , it looks plain to me what they represent in philosophical aspect even .
I like glowing ones in FO3 and New Vegas although they make my game life harder . Can't kill the bastard easy because radiation around him heals him and can't stay near him too long because radiation kills you . Why did the rest needed to be "feral" anyway is what bothered me personally . I'd attack anyone if i was pissed off how my skin was falling off of me
Enclave tried to make it an airborne death cloud , a forced execution virus .
But Master had psychic powers which is really interesting considering that FEV adds up to the body physique and not actual mind powers . I would like to have an explanation on that .
Radiation is everywhere on the other hand . Don't see why would anyone think ghouls are made from FEV , it looks plain to me what they represent in philosophical aspect even .
I like glowing ones in FO3 and New Vegas although they make my game life harder . Can't kill the bastard easy because radiation around him heals him and can't stay near him too long because radiation kills you . Why did the rest needed to be "feral" anyway is what bothered me personally . I'd attack anyone if i was pissed off how my skin was falling off of me
From what I understood, all the mutated animals and ghouls were a result of both FEV and radiation, and this made perfect sense to me.
As was mentioned before, radiation alone in big doses simply damages cells and kills organisms. Mutations only occur on a single-cell level.
FEV on the other hand, was created to impose mutations onto an organism. To achieve that, the virus must have been created to alter the genetic code of the whole organism uniformly.
If you mix those two you get a quickly mutating virus, capable of mutating whole groups of creatures on an organism-level with only slight differences between individuals. Surely a lot of them died from radiation anyway, but since it was in the viruses interest to create hosts capable of surviving - enter ghouls.
Still, I haven't played FO1 and 2 for quite a bit, so it's possible I simply made it up
As was mentioned before, radiation alone in big doses simply damages cells and kills organisms. Mutations only occur on a single-cell level.
FEV on the other hand, was created to impose mutations onto an organism. To achieve that, the virus must have been created to alter the genetic code of the whole organism uniformly.
If you mix those two you get a quickly mutating virus, capable of mutating whole groups of creatures on an organism-level with only slight differences between individuals. Surely a lot of them died from radiation anyway, but since it was in the viruses interest to create hosts capable of surviving - enter ghouls.
Still, I haven't played FO1 and 2 for quite a bit, so it's possible I simply made it up
In a few rare cases, FEV does involve adding psychic powers.LinkPain said:
The Master experimented on that.
It makes sense in a way, FEV does make subjects more intelligent (if they are free from radiation damage).
Wintermind
Vault Senior Citizen
Yeah, but Fallout doesn't give fucks about what radiation actually does; it's more like a science fiction/horror monster from the 50's.
Tsathoggua
First time out of the vault
The element in smoke alarms is usually 241Am, although I am led to believe, that occasionally neptunium isotopes are used. Never taken one to bits though and found it to contain neptunium.
A powerful alpha emitter, quite harmless unless ingested. The americium is bound in a metal matrix, if I understand correctly how they are made rather than being present as metallic americium. There isn't much in there, only a few microcuries. As I said, harmless, unless ingested, alpha radiation is stopped dead in its tracks by the outer, already dead, an thus unmutatable layer of skin.
As is beta radiation. Gamma on the other hand, is highly penetrating, although less prone to cause mutations than alpha or beta, as it is less ionizing than either of the above.
A powerful alpha emitter, quite harmless unless ingested. The americium is bound in a metal matrix, if I understand correctly how they are made rather than being present as metallic americium. There isn't much in there, only a few microcuries. As I said, harmless, unless ingested, alpha radiation is stopped dead in its tracks by the outer, already dead, an thus unmutatable layer of skin.
As is beta radiation. Gamma on the other hand, is highly penetrating, although less prone to cause mutations than alpha or beta, as it is less ionizing than either of the above.
What really doesn't make sense to me about the FEV, is that most mutants in Fallout 1 are really stupid, right? With the exception of The Lieutenant and The Master and maybe a couple others?
The problem is, if you actually read the dialog files and all the Holodisks in the game, FEV "Greatly increases intelligence"
. . . .
So why the fuck do mutants sound like idiots? (i.e. Harry, heh heh) "Ooo that was snazzy like, huh? Take you to The Lou" etc
The problem is, if you actually read the dialog files and all the Holodisks in the game, FEV "Greatly increases intelligence"
. . . .
So why the fuck do mutants sound like idiots? (i.e. Harry, heh heh) "Ooo that was snazzy like, huh? Take you to The Lou" etc
The Enclave 86
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Sduibek said:
It's suppose to increase intelligence but when the West-Tek lab got hit in the war a great amount of FEV leaked into the atmosphere and has effectively innoculated wastelanders from the full effects of FEV; that's why the Master needs the Vault Dweller's whom should be fully applicable with the FEV.
Hm, I just noticed, Your sig sounds surprisingly similar to something my country's leaders and/or military would say (or at least implicitly approve of via actions) these days...