Israel decides to go to Lebanon.

[SuAside]

funny, they announced any transport would be considered a hostile weapons transport.

even the UN no longer dares to bring necesarry supplies to the southern lebanese cities... (after the Israeli's bombing red cross ambulances last week, proving that they'll bomb ANYTHING.)

as for walking out? you do realise that a lot of people out there can't walk far in the burning sun (if they can walk at all). so what's left? starvation due to lack of supplies (they already bombed powerplants, hence no fridge to long term store things in)? how nice. it'd have been more humane to bomb the area with nerve gas imo.

congrats Israel, you just spawned another generation of terrorists.

 

[aegis]

And since then the war started again. Riddle me this, papadopoulaki, who started the bombing again?

and what would you do einstein? give hizbullah chocolate after thier hostile act. it is clear that this war was forced upon us.

We've been over this before. "Leave this entire area or prepare to be bombed" is slightly noble but not really helpful.

Also, most importantly, it does not remove Israel's responsibility. Not in any way.

and i guess the chocolate solution is your suggestion when you are bombard from civilian areas?
thats the best thing you can do for them, beside getting into the village , getting killed by hizbullah and kidnapping those civilians so they will be unharmed, besides show me 1 country that did this.

So? Again, what does that mean? I'll tell you, it means Hezbollah shares responsibility for civilian deaths with Israel. It does not mean all responsibility goes from Israel to Hezbollah. They're not killing their own civilians, you are.

no.
if the hizbullah doing it intentionally then it is not my blame, if they really cared a jack ass about lebanon, they would fire from unpopulated areas, they would've built thier bunkers in areas where there are no civilians-but they wouldnt. because they know it would harm israel more than it would harm them.

Including but not "most" major cities.

what in most dont you understand, if 1 million people cant work, sleep and being paralaysed by the whole situation, this is a major part of the country.

Duh. Never contested, never mentioned. Why do you bring this up? It is irrelevant.

duh, because if this operation was financed by those countries, including arming the hizbullah with suffciant ammunition to last for a prolonged war, and sophisticated bunkers which were never there in 2000 when israel left, means something of thier "peaceful" intent. and furthermore it strengthen the fact that it doesnt matter who started it-they wanted this to happen, thats why they preperared themselves so good for it.

Why don't YOU address the fact that Israel has more military casualties than civilans while Lebanon is vice versa?

i will if you will adress the fact that hizbullah planned this whole thing and the ones who should be judged on thier moral is them first and maybe afterward israel.

what if you die after staying? would it be YOUR fault for dying by a 'hizbullah' bomb or would it be hizbullah's fault?

it depends on who wanted to be left alone in peace, and who wanted to raise a conflict again to storm the whole mid-east again.
the way i see it, and you guyz probably dont-we didnt want this to happen-and they did.
and yeah IF i started this war on some stupid crusade to annihalte another country it would've been my fault alone.
but it isnt, and i'm not.[/quote]

 

[SuAside]

it depends on who wanted to be left alone in peace, and who wanted to raise a conflict again to storm the whole mid-east again.
the way i see it, and you guyz probably dont-we didnt want this to happen-and they did.
and yeah IF i started this war on some stupid crusade to annihalte another country it would've been my fault alone.
but it isnt, and i'm not.

well, herein your main faults are pretty obvious to me.

there is no "us" & "them". there are the isreali army, the terrorists and the civilians (be it israeli, jewish, moslim or arab (whatever you want to call them) makes not goddamn difference, they're civilians).

you fail to see you've been militarized, aegis. but that's logical. a civilian faced with a threat will either turn to the military (like you did) or turn to a peace movement. this is exactly the same on both sides.

a terrorist blows himself up in Haifa (be it out of despair or out of mental conditioning, i'm not going to argue that). people die. the israeli's are forced to make a choice. do i turn to the aggressive military to retaliate (maybe not enlist, but support through tax or political means) or do i strive for peace (through political means probably, trying to figure out why this is happening & how it can be prevented).

an israeli jet bombs a lebanese city (out of 'self-defense', you'll argue). people die. the lebanese are forced to make a choice. turn to the violent terrorists to retaliate (maybe not actively participate, but support through goods or political means) or do they strive for peace (through political means probably, trying to figure out why this is happening & how it can be prevented).

now, if you grab the numbers, the israeli's hit more civilians than the terrorists do. this creates a virtually unending influx of sympathy for the terrorists. the more you bomb, the more the terrorists gain, the more the local governements & the EU looses in rebuilding the mess each time.
the more the terrorists bomb, the more israeli's react, the more terrorists win. isn't that nice? i'm sure the strategic command of the terrorist shards are rubbing their hands in delight.

you say you didn't want this? you say your governement didn't support this? well, they bloody well are doing their best to keep things at status quo: perpetual warfare. (or worse, hoping to escalate it whenever possible)

you're a nation that prides itself on it's intelligence services & on their special forces capabilities. i ask you:
why have we only heard of bombing civilian targets, which might harbor terrorists? impersonal, low risk for israeli's, high chance of failure.
why haven't you attacked the heads of the organisation? hard to find surely, so why try? we're only after a status quo afterall. whatever keeps us in place, right?
why no commando raids on suspected strongholds? a bomb can't figure out if there's a birthday party in a house, but a commando can. sure, the material costs (including lives lost) will be higher, but the influx of hate should be far less.
why bomb indiscriminately? sure, an ambulance has a 1 in a hundred chance of being abused by transporting missiles. but is that worth the risk of bombing innocents? appearantly it is, since you bomb every civilian target you can find anyway.
why bomb roads & then tell people to leave? they've got no where to go, smartass. not to mention they frequently bomb random fleeing vehicles anyway.
why threathen UN & NGO's? why bomb an identified UN site for that matter? regretably, friendly fire happens. however, this looks more like simply not caring what you hit anymore... what's the difference between arab civilians & terrorists anymore? they're all against us anyway, right? what's the difference between UN observers & lebanese civilians? collateral damage, who cares.

how about you idiots just launch those nukes & lay a cordon of 100km wide radioactive glass desert around your country, just to be on the safe side?

i'll be the first to admit that this is a conflict without solution (certainly after so many years of hate building up). but you can try to lessen it's impact. indiscriminately bombing civilians in a souvereign country isn't something that's going to help israel's cause (and it's certainly not going to bring back a captured soldier).

 

[Brother None]

and what would you do einstein? give hizbullah chocolate after thier hostile act. it is clear that this war was forced upon us.

No, avorefaki, that is not clear. I do not deny your right to respond with military arms to the Hezbollah act of war, but it was your choice to draw civilians and the entire country of Lebanon into a war that is between you and Hezbollah. This choice was not made for you, you made it. Grow some balls and accept responsibility.

and i guess the chocolate solution is your suggestion when you are bombard from civilian areas?

Suffer has warned you before not to put words in my mouth. The chocolate idiocy is you talking. Suffer does not like other people talking for him.

thats the best thing you can do for them, beside getting into the village , getting killed by hizbullah and kidnapping those civilians so they will be unharmed, besides show me 1 country that did this.

Showing other countries that did or do this is irrelevant if it doesn't help. SuAside and SimpleMinded have now shown a myriad of reasons that these pamphlets are useless; there are no roads, people are forbidden to use cars. So why is it relevant that Israel is doing this? Who does it help, except Israel?

Also, are you claiming the Israeli army is too incompetent to carry out those close special ops missions cutting off a terrorist arm or leg? Now that's a new one. Here I was thinking the Israelis were famed for such.

if the hizbullah doing it intentionally then it is not my blame, if they really cared a jack ass about lebanon, they would fire from unpopulated areas, they would've built thier bunkers in areas where there are no civilians-but they wouldnt. because they know it would harm israel more than it would harm them.

If Hezbollah was intentionally killing its own citizens you would not be to blame. It isn't.

Whose bombs are it that fall on those civilians? They're not Hezbollah's, they're yours. This means that ipso facto you are killing these civilians, whereas Hezbollah is just shoving them in the way. You're *aiming* your bombs at civilian buildings, at roads, at populated areas.

And you actually dare to claim you have no responsibility for civilian deaths when you're firing right into a city just because there are also terrorists in the city? This is an unheard of level of cowardice. How dare you hide your moral responsibility behind such a thin veneer of pseudo-logic.

what in most dont you understand, if 1 million people cant work, sleep and being paralaysed by the whole situation, this is a major part of the country.

But not "most major cities". Learn to read already. And please learn not to counter an argument about a point (the point being that the "most major cities" remark was bullshit) with another point (that 1 million people are being terrorized in Israel (and far more in Lebanon)), which is another point.

duh, because if this operation was financed by those countries, including arming the hizbullah with suffciant ammunition to last for a prolonged war, and sophisticated bunkers which were never there in 2000 when israel left, means something of thier "peaceful" intent. and furthermore it strengthen the fact that it doesnt matter who started it-they wanted this to happen, thats why they preperared themselves so good for it.

Are you saying Israel wasn't prepared? Are you saying that being prepared means de facto that you want war? Are you saying we should blame Israel for the war because they were prepared too? Why does this logic only apply to their side?

And who ever mentioned peaceful intent? Nobody, that's right. Stop mouthstuffing.

i will if you will adress the fact that hizbullah planned this whole thing and the ones who should be judged on thier moral is them first and maybe afterward israel.

Actually, Hezbollah wanted to trade kidnapped soldiers for captured terrorists. I don't think they wanted war, yet. If they did they would've just started bombing Israel. As it stands you're the one that started bombing. You're the one that invaded *their* country. There is no cheap way out of your moral burden here, coward, so stop hiding.

the way i see it, and you guyz probably dont-we didnt want this to happen-and they did.

Suffer knows this is so.

The sad thing is that you, aegis, have been making me shake in my support of Israel. I used to support it fully in this conflict, but your idiotic reasoning has begun to instill me with doubts about the validity of the war. I should probably bring the point up with someone who can actually defend Israel properly.

 

[aegis]

how about you idiots just launch those nukes & lay a cordon of 100km wide radioactive glass desert around your country, just to be on the safe side?

just when you were starting to make sense you go on and curse.
you just criticise us from your comfortable chair thousends of miles away, well i curse those who cant see what hizbullah is doing to israel, like all in israel intrest is to kill civilians, yeah, to satisfy my blood lust for muslamic casualties.
who said anything that killing civlians is good for anything?
but you think that NOT hurting them si possible in a warzone.
you already agreed that hizbullah shoots from populated areas, so why do we have to repeat here 5 times? they are the ones doing it to THIER civlians, otherwise they would shoot from other areas, you dont see IDF shooting from populated areas.

This choice was not made for you, you made it. Grow some balls and accept responsibility.

right, i was making all those bunkers in the past 6 years in lebanon, getting financed by iran to start a war with israel, right-its MY reponsibility, not THIERS.
you cant see the diffrence between defense and offense can you?

there are no roads, people are forbidden to use cars. So why is it relevant that Israel is doing this?

but still you have time to leave your village on foot, even if you are a terrorist you would gladly accept it. regarding the roads that are being destroyed, thats thier ammunition routes-so yuo think you can pin point which truck is civilian or a military target?

And you actually dare to claim you have no responsibility for civilian deaths when you're firing right into a city just because there are also terrorists in the city? This is an unheard of level of cowardice. How dare you hide your moral responsibility behind such a thin veneer of pseudo-logic.

]


how YOU dare to call this MORAL, when hizbullah is the one's who is HIDING behind civilians so they can die and harm israel support?
and you think there is thing here that calls for moral on thier side??
lets see....
to hit terrorists hiding behind civlians, or keep getting bombed?
hypocrisy. so i'm unmoral because i'm firing on terrorists hiding behind civlians? no. if there is anyone to blame on any moral side here is them.

Are you saying Israel wasn't prepared? Are you saying that being prepared means de facto that you want war? Are you saying we should blame Israel for the war because they were prepared too? Why does this logic only apply to their side?

huh?? no. i am saying that israel did NOT want this, and you somehow want to show that both sides wanted this to happen.
israel is prepared to war is much as any other coutry is prepared, espcially in a delicate situation, being prepared doesnt make us aggersors, it makes us ready for defense, thats a diffrence, and its BIG.

Actually, Hezbollah wanted to trade kidnapped soldiers for captured terrorists. I don't think they wanted war, yet. If they did they would've just started bombing Israel. As it stands you're the one that started bombing. You're the one that invaded *their* country.

i'm sorry but thats such a bullshit thing you just said, because if they only wanted to trade captured terrorists, they wouldn't occupy all south lebanon, arm themselves with top of the line bunkers and tens of thousends of rockets, all from iran, who everybody knows ONLY wants to trade poor defensless terrorists, and not destroy israel and drag her to war with her or something meangless like this, right.

Suffer knows this is so.

no. either you just enjoy talkback to people you tagged them as idiots, which i'm sure is what everyone on this forum has tagged me, or you never really cared about any of this.
and i think its the latter.

 

[Sander]

right, i was making all those bunkers in the past 6 years in lebanon, getting financed by iran to start a war with israel, right-its MY reponsibility, not THIERS.
you cant see the diffrence between defense and offense can you?

Yes he can. He can also see that if someone kills someone else, he is responsible for that death at least in part, regardless of whoever else is *also* responsible and what the circumstances are. This has jack shit to do with you being in the right or not, it has everything to do with your responsibility and how you treat the fact that you do kill innocents, whether on purpose or not.

but still you have time to leave your village on foot, even if you are a terrorist you would gladly accept it. regarding the roads that are being destroyed, thats thier ammunition routes-so yuo think you can pin point which truck is civilian or a military target?

That wasn't the point. The point is that this makes the pamphlets rather senseless, since there are going to be very few people who will indeed leave because of the pamphlets.

how YOU dare to call this MORAL, when hizbullah is the one's who is HIDING behind civilians so they can die and harm israel support?
and you think there is thing here that calls for moral on thier side??
lets see....
to hit terrorists hiding behind civlians, or keep getting bombed?
hypocrisy. so i'm unmoral because i'm firing on terrorists hiding behind civlians? no. if there is anyone to blame on any moral side here is them.

Can you say anything else other than 'But Hezbollah is worse!'
Get this: the fact that the other party is immoral does not make *you* morally right, nor does it excuse you from any responsibility you have over deaths caused directly by you.

huh?? no. i am saying that israel did NOT want this, and you somehow want to show that both sides wanted this to happen.
israel is prepared to war is much as any other coutry is prepared, espcially in a delicate situation, being prepared doesnt make us aggersors, it makes us ready for defense, thats a diffrence, and its BIG.

Are you this blind?
The reason Suffer brought this up was to show the fallacy of your *reasoning* not the right or wrong of your side.
Besides that, you completely miss the point. He asks why the logic of 'They were prepared' means that they are the aggressors, while you were prepared just as well.

i'm sorry but thats such a bullshit thing you just said, because if they only wanted to trade captured terrorists, they wouldn't occupy all south lebanon, arm themselves with top of the line bunkers and tens of thousends of rockets, all from iran, who everybody knows ONLY wants to trade poor defensless terrorists, and not destroy israel and drag her to war with her or something meangless like this, right.

He said *yet*, you idiot. This means that at the point the war started they did not want war at that point in time.

no. either you just enjoy talkback to people you tagged them as idiots, which i'm sure is what everyone on this forum has tagged me, or you never really cared about any of this.
and i think its the latter.

...
You're a moron.
He said 'Suffer knows this is so.' and you say 'no.'
What the hell? He just said he did. How can you possibly deny that he knows?
Also, yes, we're all convinced you're an idiot and are just pretending to be on your side to fuck with you. Obviously.

 

[Brother None]

you just criticise us from your comfortable chair thousends of miles away

Suffer thought it had been made clear that "I am in Israel!"-rhetoric is unfiltered bullshit already?

right, i was making all those bunkers in the past 6 years in lebanon, getting financed by iran to start a war with israel, right-its MY reponsibility, not THIERS.
you cant see the diffrence between defense and offense can you?

I can, apparently you can't. History tends to judge the people that, you know, invade another country as the aggressors. You're only not the aggressor in the same way that the US wasn't the aggressor when invading Afghanistan.

And I'm not defending Hezbollah, I'm saying you should stop trying to hide your own responsibility.

but still you have time to leave your village on foot,

What? Are you insane? How will they take anything with them? Are they supposed to carry their water and food? How will they *NOT STARVE* in the endless wasteland between one town and the next town which, incidentally, isn't safe at all?

even if you are a terrorist you would gladly accept it. regarding the roads that are being destroyed, thats thier ammunition routes-so yuo think you can pin point which truck is civilian or a military target?

No, I think I would simply admit that I can not pin point such facts and then accept my due responsibility.

how YOU dare to call this MORAL, when hizbullah is the one's who is HIDING behind civilians so they can die and harm israel support?
and you think there is thing here that calls for moral on thier side??
lets see....
to hit terrorists hiding behind civlians, or keep getting bombed?
hypocrisy. so i'm unmoral because i'm firing on terrorists hiding behind civlians? no. if there is anyone to blame on any moral side here is them.

Are you stupid or just pretending, papadopoulaki?

I am not denying their partial responsibility. They draw people into a warzone. That sucks.

But it is still not their bombs or bullets that kill those people.

Look, collatoral damage is a fact of life, it happens to every army in every combat situation. It happens. You need to stop trying to wash your hands clean of all blood in good Roma-judaic tradition and simply accept that it IS your bombs killing those civilians no matter what Hezbollah has to do with it. This implicitally makes you responsible for their deaths. Morality is only a part of it, this is simply about responsibility and trying to hide from it. Which you are. Cowards.

huh?? no. i am saying that israel did NOT want this, and you somehow want to show that both sides wanted this to happen.
israel is prepared to war is much as any other coutry is prepared, espcially in a delicate situation, being prepared doesnt make us aggersors, it makes us ready for defense, thats a diffrence, and its BIG.

Oh, so when Israel builds bunkers and stockpiles arms they're alright and innocent but when Hezbollah does they're warmongerers? So the logic obviously only applies to one side?

I'm not saying I want to show that both sides wanted this to happen. That is bullshit and again putting words in my mouth, averofaki. I'm saying that the argument that Hezbollah is responsible for war breaking out simply because they stockpiled arms is bullshit on its own.

i'm sorry but thats such a bullshit thing you just said, because if they only wanted to trade captured terrorists, they wouldn't occupy all south lebanon, arm themselves with top of the line bunkers and tens of thousends of rockets, all from iran, who everybody knows ONLY wants to trade poor defensless terrorists, and not destroy israel and drag her to war with her or something meangless like this, right.

"yet"

Learn to read.

no. either you just enjoy talkback to people you tagged them as idiots, which i'm sure is what everyone on this forum has tagged me, or you never really cared about any of this.
and i think its the latter.

This has nothing to do with the point suffer was adressing.

 

[SuAside]

they are the ones doing it to THIER civlians, otherwise they would shoot from other areas, you dont see IDF shooting from populated areas.

yet again you fail to see the civilians aren't "their" civilians, aegis...

you seem to have a severe case of "the end hallows the means". or even "they did it first, so i can do it too!".

how do you think the civilians caught in the conflict feel? this really isn't their war... they simply wanted to rebuild their country after years of bad luck.

don't you think the lebanese have suffered enough? don't you think the palestines have suffered enough? don't you think the israeli's have suffered enough? i'd say yes on all three counts, so why don't you take responsability & try to sort this mess out? there is no easy way out & the peace proces would take decades, perhaps even generations before it's all sorted out, but by the gods (and i'm an atheist) it's better that simply fueling the steady stream of hate against Israel. you have to realise your army is doing everything necessary for the terrorists to be guaranteed years of steady streams of cannon fodder for their cause. i doubt they even have to make a lot of publicity or have recruitment drives. as is, people come to them, courtesy of the IDF.

it's undeniable that the IDF has the means for a less random form of retaliation/justice/selfdefense, but it's just so much easier to say "tough luck" & bomb the shit out of everything that moves. justifying it with "they did it first, nananananana! (besides, they're only poor arabs, plenty more where those came from)".

 

[Icewendigo]

Hey, there's an Hezbolla cell hidden somewhere in Tel Aviv, lets bomb Tel Aviv with 500lb bombs razing one building after another until we hit them! Who cares if scores of jewish families get killed? Its their fault the terrorist cell is hidden in the city.

What? Another Terrorists cell in London that hasn't been caught yet? Lets call the artillery and naval guns, we'll raze one neighborhood after another, who cares if the old, women and children get their intestines blown apart, they just were in the wrong city its their fault and they failed to bring the terrorist to justice in time. Or has some isreali said, you cant make omlettes without braking eggs. Too bad for Londoners. We'll also blow up bridges in London just in case the terrorist might used them, and blow up the airport cause the terrorist could use that too, and how about all Oil reserves so no one including the terrorist can escape the carnage, hey the terrorist in London eat so lets bomb food factories too, then how about bombing the power plants so that terrorist cell has no electricity or running water?

Then, Hezbolla should replace one of their rocket warheads with leaflets saying "escape from Israel, we are merciful and want you to leave the region altogether before we bomb you. From Hezbolla with love.", would that be hailed the same way Israel's leaflets have?

Then, Escape? Many families were afraid to leave because they could have been bombed in the car while fleeing, some families did try to escape only to be blown appart in their cars.

Israel shells a UN observation post that directly calls the Israeli army several times to have the madness stoped and they still get bombed, And after that the UN contacts the Israeli army and nonetheless the rescue workers pulling out the corpses of the unarmed UN observers still get shelled! What chance does a family living in a house without a big UN on the roof and no phone of avoiding bombs?

Its a carnage and an outrage totally out of proportion. Regardless of how justifed some people think it is, the war is making the Israel (and US) look like butchers on the world stage. My statements wont change the opinion of pro-Israeli (and Pro-US) supporter, but their comments wont change World opinion and outrage either.

 

[aegis]

here's an example of proportion:

http://www.blogherald.com/2006/08/06/little-green-footballs-busts-reuters/

in short they just falsified a picture of bombing in lebanon, if this 1 exists imagine how many more..

I can, apparently you can't. History tends to judge the people that, you know, invade another country as the aggressors. You're only not the aggressor in the same way that the US wasn't the aggressor when invading Afghanistan.

why do you see only this side? is it impossible for you to grasp that the other side forced it upon the unaggressive countries?
wasnt the USA attacked in 9/11? wasnt israel attacked? yea i know its retorical, but i know you would speak much diffrently when this shit was in your country.

And I'm not defending Hezbollah, I'm saying you should stop trying to hide your own responsibility.

what responsibilty? you mean beside trying to defend my country and to use pincette on hizbullah so the world wont shout at israel, "you fucking butcher"?
the only responsiblity should lay on the hands of those who layed this war, you think our moral resposibility is lacking? check out the other side please, and then we will discuss ours-not before.

What? Are you insane? How will they take anything with them? Are they supposed to carry their water and food? How will they *NOT STARVE* in the endless wasteland between one town and the next town which, incidentally, isn't safe at all?

you're right, they are pretty much screwed up, because hizbullah told them to stay there and not flee thier houses, if a terrorist organization would tell you to stay in your house would you stay? i know i wouldn't. i think those civilians wanted to be there, you know its a muslamic belief to be a "shahid", even if you are not a member of an organization.

No, I think I would simply admit that I can not pin point such facts and then accept my due responsibility.

what do you mean? you think we enjoy butchering civilians so the world can scream at us? those are poor souls allright, but i have to worry about my shit before them, wouldn't you?
its like, this war is shit from all stances, no matter what you do, the world says you're an ass, you pay millions of dollars each day to finance this shit, lose all the tourism that could've been up north, people lose money, houses, die etc..
and all because of a bunch of extremists which lebanon goverment couldn't handle.

Which you are. Cowards.

no. this is what you dont get, if the goverment in lebanon would control its shit and not let iran and syria dictate the rules of engagment, there wouldn't be any casualties from lebanon, but the point is, iran and syria dont give a jackass about lebanon, and hizbullah also-and the proof is there, so i should take responsiblity just because the physical damage is mine?
its like you would blame yourslef if someone would hold a gun you were shooting that you didnt want to shoot in the first place, and that anaology you cant precieve.

Oh, so when Israel builds bunkers and stockpiles arms they're alright and innocent but when Hezbollah does they're warmongerers? So the logic obviously only applies to one side?

you cant say it diffrently-like:if someone has an army does that mean he is going to use it for immoral usage?
so you are saying that the warmongers here are israel.typical.

I'm saying that the argument that Hezbollah is responsible for war breaking out simply because they stockpiled arms is bullshit on its own.

not according to the last situation. what do you think they would do with all that? make fireworks? they wanted to open a war, what does it matter WHEN? "yet", who cares??they are using it against us now, better we finish them now before they push us to unneccessary grounds, like iran or syria.

--------------------

it has everything to do with your responsibility and how you treat the fact that you do kill innocents, whether on purpose or not.

read above.

Can you say anything else other than 'But Hezbollah is worse!'

thats what you're saying. i'm saying that they are the one causing directly all this misery upon the lebanonise people, we are doing what we can to defend israel, it is very unfourtunate its on the account of those civilians, for sure, but to say that i am responsible directly for thier death is simply not true, "worse" has nothing to do with it, there isn't a "nice" way to make war, its ugly, and cruel to everyone, but there is a BIG diffrence on those who wants war wiht lebanon, and those who dont-THOES are the people that should be on the stand, not those trying to STOP the war.

The reason Suffer brought this up was to show the fallacy of your *reasoning* not the right or wrong of your side.

whats that about "reasoning", who are you demanding to take responsiblity? exactly the wrong people.

He said *yet*, you idiot. This means that at the point the war started they did not want war at that point in time.

and what bullshit is that-"yet". who gives a fuck about yet?
if a terrorist was near your house, and he wasnt ready to attack "yet" would you let him by, and wait until he decides to do it? btw it really suits the moderators in nma to curse, well done.

.

..
You're a moron.
He said 'Suffer knows this is so.' and you say 'no.'
What the hell? He just said he did. How can you possibly deny that he knows?
Also, yes, we're all convinced you're an idiot and are just pretending to be on your side to fuck with you. Obviously.

i was answaring to the logic of what he says, because
i fail to see what side are you really, except from the loads of loathing i hear from the tone of your voice, i'm not a fucking israeli embassador, but you guyz dont sound much like sympathizers.
otherwise you would talk about blame from the other side.

again, if you think i'm doing propaganda here or anything, and not talking with you, just say so now and i will shut up.

 

[Brother None]

Good post, aegis.

here's an example of proportion:

http://www.blogherald.com/2006/08/06/little-green-footballs-busts-reuters/

in short they just falsified a picture of bombing in lebanon, if this 1 exists imagine how many more..

That Reuters thing is pretty messed up. Hajj has so far been proven to have edited two pictures (one of a burning Beirout and one of an Israeli F-16 firing missiles) and, worse, it's pretty much sure he staged a lot of the pictures surrounding Qana.

Reuters fired him, though, and retracted all his pictures.

More importantly to me, until I read the news about him being fired, I never saw a single one of those pictures, meaning none of that false propaganda even reached me.

yea i know its retorical, but i know you would speak much diffrently when this shit was in your country.

Yes, it is rhetorical and irrelevant. So stop saying it.

what responsibilty? you mean beside trying to defend my country and to use pincette on hizbullah so the world wont shout at israel, "you fucking butcher"?

No, not that responsibility.

The responsibility to face up to the simple fact that when you kill the civilian or even a terrorist this death is your responsibility. Whether or not the death is "justified" because you're defending your country, which you are, is a seperate question.

Consider the way the war has gone and its reasons to exist, Israel has no need to hide behind false arguments of "we drop flyers hence the deaths are not our fault." Such blatant lies ill besuit you.

the only responsiblity should lay on the hands of those who layed this war, you think our moral resposibility is lacking?

That's bullshit. "They started it" does tilt the moral balance in one direction or another, but it does not mean "the only responsibility" should be called theirs. Nevermind that we can even argue about who started bombing and who has invaded whose country by the point, punching someone back still means you've punched.

check out the other side please, and then we will discuss ours-not before.

Why? I was unaware there was a morality-queue that you have to pass through before coming up for judgement. Is there any reason at all I would have to judge Hezbollah before Israel?

you're right, they are pretty much screwed up, because hizbullah told them to stay there and not flee thier houses, if a terrorist organization would tell you to stay in your house would you stay? i know i wouldn't. i think those civilians wanted to be there, you know its a muslamic belief to be a "shahid", even if you are not a member of an organization.

That is complete nonsense.

A muslim will never consider himself shaheed unless he believes the case he dies in is ordained by Allah. Dying in a war you do not personally believe him will get you squat. Saying they stayed in buildings just to be shaheed sounds very improbable.

And drop the "Hezbollah told them to stay there"-bit. Again; the roads are broken, the bridges gone, it's impossible to walk. Why do you bring up Hezbollah telling them they shouldn't leave, when in fact Israel already made it impossible to leave?

what do you mean? you think we enjoy butchering civilians so the world can scream at us? those are poor souls allright, but i have to worry about my shit before them, wouldn't you?
its like, this war is shit from all stances, no matter what you do, the world says you're an ass, you pay millions of dollars each day to finance this shit, lose all the tourism that could've been up north, people lose money, houses, die etc..
and all because of a bunch of extremists which lebanon goverment couldn't handle.

The extremists are a part of the government, so that's a bit of an odd point.

I repeat; I am not condemning your reasons for waging war, I'm condemning your attempts to wash your hands clean of any and all deaths.

no. this is what you dont get, if the goverment in lebanon would control its shit and not let iran and syria dictate the rules of engagment, there wouldn't be any casualties from lebanon, but the point is, iran and syria dont give a jackass about lebanon, and hizbullah also-and the proof is there, so i should take responsiblity just because the physical damage is mine?
its like you would blame yourslef if someone would hold a gun you were shooting that you didnt want to shoot in the first place, and that anaology you cant precieve.

What? That analogy doesn't even vaguely work. Nobody is pushing the buttons of Israel's rockets except Israel. Nobody is holding the gun for you, you're holding it yourself

Yes, you should take a part of the responsibility because the physical damage is yours. You're throwing bombs, when the bombs land it is your throwing them that made them land. Nothing else. There's no other reason for bombs to fall than for someone to shoot them.

"Yeah, but they..." is all well and good and serves to defend your reasons for doing it, but it does not alleviate your responsibility. Simply accept it. Stop trying to run away.

so you are saying that the warmongers here are israel.

Heh. Avoferaki, that wasn't what I was saying at all. In fact, me and Sander both explicitely stated that that was not my point. My point, to repeat myself, is that your argument doesn't work because it would apply to Israel as well. Got it?

thats what you're saying.

Not really, it's what you're saying.

i'm saying that they are the one causing directly all this misery upon the lebanonise people

Really? Suffer never noticed any Hezbollah killings of Lebanese people. "Directly" might not be the term you're looking for, papadopoulaki.

whats that about "reasoning", who are you demanding to take responsiblity? exactly the wrong people.

Not really. Neither of us has so far denied the responsibility of Hezbollah or Israel. You're the only one denying responsibility of one side or, apparently, indicating that responsibility has to lie with one *or* the other.

and what bullshit is that-"yet". who gives a fuck about yet?
if a terrorist was near your house, and he wasnt ready to attack "yet" would you let him by, and wait until he decides to do it?

Heh. How George W. Bush. "Preventive" warfare, huh? So where does it stop? After Lebanon, what about Iran? Syria? What about subversive elements in Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia? What about young muslims, they could become terrorists, ready to attack, should we kill them preventively?

"Preventive" warfare is a brainfart as it assumes complete knowledge of the future. It will never serve as an excuse of reason to strike, so do not use it as such.

i was answaring to the logic of what he says, because i fail to see what side are you really, except from the loads of loathing i hear from the tone of your voice, i'm not a fucking israeli embassador, but you guyz dont sound much like sympathizers.
otherwise you would talk about blame from the other side.

No, we don't sympathize with Israel by definition. We sympathize with Israel on this unique case because we believe them justified and rational in their approach, if not completely in execution. This means that we're on the side of Israel's reason for fighting, not that we support any haphazourd argument thrown in Israel's way.

The fact that we support the war but disagree with you says a lot about your arguments, logic and way of expressing yourself. Not ours. Your failure to see what side we are on says a lot about the way you look at the world. It says nothing about us.

 

[Nuerof]

@aegis

Your arguments are all well however you cannot deny that you take responsibility for those whom you kill, even if this is shared with al-queda based netowrks *you* are still killing them. Having siad that this is justified to some extent, the rise in EU opium smuggling since the afghan disaster has been over 75%, this has led to the deaths of thousands of innocents, if the jewish and muslim community stamped down on the cultural roots of opium growing in afghanastan then the problem could be solved, they dont they suffer.

The rise in opium access to the eu and us has been alarming, also illegally produce fentanyl has been mixed with street dope and is now killing many throughout holland and the us, this is due to governements in sharia states supporting al queda based terrorism, the increase is disturbing.

That Reuters thing is pretty messed up. Hajj has so far been proven to have edited two pictures (one of a burning Beirout and one of an Israeli F-16 firing missiles) and, worse, it's pretty much sure he staged a lot of the pictures surrounding Qana.

By definition pictures originating from a teroroist group in a Sharia law warzone should not be believed...

Reuters fired him, though, and retracted all his pictures.

I find this hard to believe.

More importantly to me, until I read the news about him being fired, I never saw a single one of those pictures, meaning none of that false propaganda even reached me.

But as we are talking about deaths from terorism and opium from the region this is morraly unjust, whilst you americans *may* be seperated from the harsh realities of Sharia law states the fact remains, their opium laced with fentaly is killing you, just as their bombs are, claiming the lies of their regicm do not apply because oyu have not witnessed them until your cnady filled local news station throws it in your face is frankly unjust.

es, it is rhetorical and irrelevant. So stop saying it.

You would, you have failed to address his point - look at what happened at 911, the following wars and the opium boost.

The responsibility to face up to the simple fact that when you kill the civilian or even a terrorist this death is your responsibility. Whether or not the death is "justified" because you're defending your country, which you are, is a seperate question.

Consider the way the war has gone and its reasons to exist, Israel has no need to hide behind false arguments of "we drop flyers hence the deaths are not our fault." Such blatant lies ill besuit you.

I won't argue with that.

That's bullshit. "They started it" does tilt the moral balance in one direction or another, but it does not mean "the only responsibility" should be called theirs. Nevermind that we can even argue about who started bombing and who has invaded whose country by the point, punching someone back still means you've punched.

True, its like saying americans invade pakistan, a local captures a marine and tortures him, is the local suffering moral instability?

A muslim will never consider himself shaheed unless he believes the case he dies in is ordained by Allah. Dying in a war you do not personally believe him will get you squat. Saying they stayed in buildings just to be shaheed sounds very improbable.

Wrong:
'[11.9] And if We make man taste mercy from Us, then take it off from him, most surely he is despairing, ungrateful.'

Need more?

What? That analogy doesn't even vaguely work. Nobody is pushing the buttons of Israel's rockets except Israel. Nobody is holding the gun for you, you're holding it yourself

Wrong again, the israeli governemtn is just puppets o the greater power of western society, whilst no one specifically pulls the strings so to speak, society as a whole governs israels actions, western society daemonises street opium use, thus they consider the war just, thus it occours, thus people die.

 

[Sander]

@aegis

Your arguments are all well however you cannot deny that you take responsibility for those whom you kill, even if this is shared with al-queda based netowrks *you* are still killing them. Having siad that this is justified to some extent, the rise in EU opium smuggling since the afghan disaster has been over 75%, this has led to the deaths of thousands of innocents, if the jewish and muslim community stamped down on the cultural roots of opium growing in afghanastan then the problem could be solved, they dont they suffer.

The rise in opium access to the eu and us has been alarming, also illegally produce fentanyl has been mixed with street dope and is now killing many throughout holland and the us, this is due to governements in sharia states supporting al queda based terrorism, the increase is disturbing.

Opium? You'd better be talking about opiates because this makes no sense otherwise.
Oh, wait, it doesn't make any sense if you're talking about opiates either. This fentanyl has not been killing many over here.

As for your suggestion that Israel's war with Lebanon is somehow going to help to stop the trade of opiates from Afghanistan is ridiculous. How could that even be connected?

By definition pictures originating from a teroroist group in a Sharia law warzone should not be believed...

Reuters is a terrorist group in a Sharia law warzone?
Wait, Lebanon is under Sharia law?

Reuters fired him, though, and retracted all his pictures.

I find this hard to believe.

I find it fitting that you think the truth is hard to believe.

But as we are talking about deaths from terorism and opium from the region this is morraly unjust, whilst you americans *may* be seperated from the harsh realities of Sharia law states the fact remains, their opium laced with fentaly is killing you, just as their bombs are, claiming the lies of their regicm do not apply because oyu have not witnessed them until your cnady filled local news station throws it in your face is frankly unjust.

First of all, Kharn is Dutch. Secondly, I very much doubt that fentanyl is killing him since I'm pretty sure he's not a heroin user. Thirdly, what the hell does Lebanon have to do with opiates?
Also, what the hell kind of logic is 'claiming the lies of their regicm [sic] do not apply because oyu [sic] have not witnessed them [..] is unjust.'
He said that he had not seen any doctored photos. He claimed that that was a good thing, since that meant that the doctored photos were not as widespread as the undoctored photos.

You would, you have failed to address his point - look at what happened at 911, the following wars and the opium boost.

aegis point was essentially 'you'd do the same'. What the hell does this have to do with the trade in opiates, 9/11 and the wars you do not know Kharn's stance on?

A muslim will never consider himself shaheed unless he believes the case he dies in is ordained by Allah. Dying in a war you do not personally believe him will get you squat. Saying they stayed in buildings just to be shaheed sounds very improbable.

Wrong:
'[11.9] And if We make man taste mercy from Us, then take it off from him, most surely he is despairing, ungrateful.'

Need more?

Erm, yeah, that so says that they are going to consider themselves shaheed if killed without believing that their struggle is one ordained by Allah.
What is your fascination with quoting only very vaguely related, inconclusive pieces of 'evidence'?

Wrong again, the israeli governemtn is just puppets o the greater power of western society, whilst no one specifically pulls the strings so to speak, society as a whole governs israels actions, western society daemonises street opium use, thus they consider the war just, thus it occours, thus people die.

...
What the hell? How did that first bit (which is pretty silly an sich, since barely anyone supported Israel invading Lebanon before they did it) relate to the second bit about opiate street opiate use? Here's a concept: Lebanon has barely anything to do with street opiate use. Especially in the view of the people that, you claim, are forcing Israel into a war through peer pressure.

 

[Brother None]

Reuters fired him, though, and retracted all his pictures.

I find this hard to believe.

Do you?

Reuters drops freelance Lebanese photographer over image

Reuters withdraws all photos by freelancer

For the rest, see Sander's reply, and remember that Suffer is Kharn.

 

[Nuerof]

Opium? You'd better be talking about opiates because this makes no sense otherwise.

nO I am talking about opium, opiates are rarely synthesised in the far east, they are slipped into europe where they are illegally turned into opiates and opiods in submodern crime culture (read mafia, new protest etc)

Oh, wait, it doesn't make any sense if you're talking about opiates either

Yes it does: http://opioids.com/opium/golden-route.html

This fentanyl has not been killing many over here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5890552,00.html

I did not specifically mention Germany, its more the US and Holland.

As for your suggestion that Israel's war with Lebanon is somehow going to help to stop the trade of opiates from Afghanistan is ridiculous. How could that even be connected?

Well as hezbolluh control a great amount of the opium trade, yes it will.

 

[Sander]

nO I am talking about opium, opiates are rarely synthesised in the far east, they are slipped into europe where they are illegally turned into opiates and opiods in submodern crime culture (read mafia, new protest etc)

If you're talking about opium, you're even more of an idiot. No one uses opium nowadays. People use substances that contain opiates, though. But no one uses opium.

Yes it does: http://opioids.com/opium/golden-route.html

Right, that does it, strike one for trolling.
That link does not have anything to do with Lebanon.

FYI, no one claimed that Afghanistan does not produce opiates, which is what that article is about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5890552,00.html

I did not specifically mention Germany, its more the US and Holland.

Erm, I'm not in Germany, I'm in 'Holland' (the Netherlands). Are you that blind that you can't even read location names?

Again a link that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I said that that was not happening over here. Since I live in the Netherlands, I was talking about the Netherlands. You then give me a link where *nothing* is said about the Netherlands (hell, it doesn't even talk about Germany either).
Thus, strike two for trolling. One more and you're out for a week.

Well as hezbolluh control a great amount of the opium trade, yes it will.

Source. One more useless link and you're out for a week to think about the principle of providing actual proof. So make it a link that actually means something, okay?

 

[Brother None]

Uhm, Neurof, this concept might be slightly beyond you, but the point of linking to an article is that the article proves what you are saying. Linking to random articles that have little to do with your statements is a bit...odd.

Also, well done ignoring half the reply from Sander.

 

[Mani]

Great, Israel was finally trying to get rid of Fuckbollah and the world forces them into a ceasefire, which allows those subhumans to regroup and get more rockets from Iran so we can forever enjoy the fucked up status quo in western Asia.

As for the Lebanese, sorry your democratically elected government chose to allow the terrorists to run free and attack Israel again and again, but since you elected them it's probably what you wanted.

Now that there's a ceasefire, suddenly there's 15.000 Lebanese troops available to guard south Lebanon so the terrorists wont attack Israel anymore...... where were these troops before? Jacking off to chicks in Burkas?

But no fear people, France will solve this crisis! They will send 200 whole soldiers to the area! There will be peace now....

Special thanks to the U.N. for being completely useless as allways~!

 

[SuAside]

Great, Israel was finally trying to get rid of Fuckbollah and the world forces them into a ceasefire, which allows those subhumans to regroup and get more rockets from Iran so we can forever enjoy the fucked up status quo in western Asia.

i'm quite certain Israel's escapades only bolstered the support for Hezbollah. they'll have more volunteers & gain more sympathy on the 'ground'.

as we speak, Hezbollah representatives are handing out money to people who lost their houses & jobs.

As for the Lebanese, sorry your democratically elected government chose to allow the terrorists to run free and attack Israel again and again, but since you elected them it's probably what you wanted.

yeah, thats like saying every american wanted to bring soldiers home in coffins...

Now that there's a ceasefire, suddenly there's 15.000 Lebanese troops available to guard south Lebanon so the terrorists wont attack Israel anymore...... where were these troops before? Jacking off to chicks in Burkas?

tbh, if i were a Lebanese general, i wouldnt have sent the available troops to the south either during the whole crisis. why? 1) due to sympathy of your own troopers, attacks will still slip through (who can blame them? Israel destroyed & occupied their country and stole the territory of their neighbors) & 2) Israel bombs anything anyway. they bombed the UN and thousands of civilians, do you think they'll feel any remorse over bombing the Lebanese military? no, it would be a bonus to wipe those out, since they're potential enemies of Zion!!!!1!one! death to the heathens!

But no fear people, France will solve this crisis! They will send 200 whole soldiers to the area! There will be peace now....

Special thanks to the U.N. for being completely useless as allways~!

granted, it's stupid from france. my country promised troops though & we're already overstretched in peacekeeping operations as is.

but it's even stupider that 2 countries need a babysit after decades of conflict. fucking pussies... war is easy, peace is tough.


and where might you be from Mani?

i'd like to know the country that doesnt wage war, that doesn't make political errors, that is perfect and happy in every way.

 

[Brother None]

Great, Israel was finally trying to get rid of Fuckbollah and the world forces them into a ceasefire, which allows those subhumans to regroup and get more rockets from Iran so we can forever enjoy the fucked up status quo in western Asia.

Factually incorrect. The world didn't force Israel into anything. Israel never wanted to invade Lebanon, it's a quagmire, they didn't want to get involved in that.

The originally stated goal of "wiping out Hezbollah" very quickly turned out to be more difficult than originally imagined. You can't imagine the firepower, manpower, money and lives it would've cost to do this. I'm sure Olmert has considered this, though.

Israel wanted a ceasefire and a force there to safeguard its borders. It's an easy way out for them. Nobody forced them.

As for the Lebanese, sorry your democratically elected government chose to allow the terrorists to run free and attack Israel again and again, but since you elected them it's probably what you wanted.

You do realise Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese government, right?