this is in reply to the one who posted that article:
well... you know... it probably is a waste of time of me, to comment over this totally subjective report, as it's very easy to mutilate millons of facts, and for me to explain why they are wrong... but what tha heck?
this example of the girl you brought over here, is simply a wonderful one to what happens when you bring only part of the facts, but not all of them.
let me give you ALL THE FACTS. that outpost she approached was no "some outpost" like rediculously put in that artice, but it was a military outpost in a restricted area, not close at all to palestinian borders(by foot at least) an by NO MEANS on the way to any school. that girl left the territories, went 400 meters into the restricted area with a bag. when the soldiers used a speaker to tell her to back off, she still approached. when they fired the warning shots in the air, she still continued approaching, and then she threw the bag at the outpost. when children smaller in age than her are caught with explosives belts, there's no reason to believe she's not a genuine threat. the soldiers had no choice but to follow regulations, so they had to kill her. why did it take 20 bullets you ask? because she was shot at from many different locations simultaniously, and because of the automatic rate of fire. yes, the bag had school books in it, but it's almost certain she was used as a diversion for a terrorist attack.
so don't you bullshit they were near "some outpost" on their way to school... a restriced area is what it is...
about "israeli have a right to defend themselves" and the israeli terrorists 50 years ago things, i'm sorry, but the artice you quoted was written by either somone retarted, or by someone who is an antisemite... idiotic remarks which are made to insult the inteligence of the human race.
if you want to have a serious discussion, you better bring true and accurate points and not idiotic blurbs.
now in reply to sander:
i'm very happy that we're making progress. and start seeing things some eye to eye here in some points...
Whether or not they are doesn't matter, because your remarks of "slogans" is standing in the way of actually looking at the content of these ideas. "They're slogans" doesn't mean they're bad, you know. But hey, if you want more ideas, I'll get back to that later.
when i say slogans, i don't mean they are bad. i mean that they can't be inplemented because you don't give a way to inplement them. sure, those ideas are could be good potentially, but how exactly do you make them work? some of the things you say are not practical.
Yes, when Arafat actually held power. Whether or not you need to do this now is another matter, but if Arafat dies, the Palestinian government will probably have very few contacts with the terrorists left. Whether you like it or not, supporting that government and making sure that that government then spends it on such things as jobs, house construction, welfare and whatnot is a really good way of making them more friendly towards you.
Quote:
we don't have money to give them! all the money we have-we need.
Bullshit. Israel may not be one of the richest countries in the world, it's still a hell of a lot richer than Palestinia and should therefore easily be able to afford to give them money.
you simply don't know our financial state. i don't know if you really want to get into this, but it's a bit complicated and it will take a big effort to explain why we simply can't support another country, couse we have a real trouble supporting ours. in a few words, right now we have more than 15 percent of people without jobs, a lot more people who can't support their families, and a thriving poverty. we have to take care of ourselves first before we can adress to others, and we haven't done that yet. if you wanna check this thing out, just search the net for our economic state.
What the bloody bloody BLOODY hell does this have to do with anything. I didn't say anything that came even close to this rubbish.
See what I mean by not READING what I say.
what i meant was, that we're trying to solve the problem of terrorism here, and the thing of giving them money is not supposed to be any way to help preventing terrorism(making their lives better)
For one acknowledging it, giving it support to continue on a peaceful road, supporting it in trying to stop the terrorists, because they do not support them.
Those are a few very abstract things but I'm sure that anyone with a bit more knowledge of the exact situation could come up with some more concrete things to help the current Palestinian government, because it's better to have a government than none at all.
we always did acknowledge it. that's why we had talks with them. helping them stop terrorism is not practical, because not only they are not trying to do so, they simply can't. we're stopping terrorism by ourselves.
Hah. That's one of the most useful remarks and a remark everyone should adhere to, and why? Because the Israelis are currently NOT thinking about a better world for the rest of the world, but for themselves. Learn to help those Palestinians and learn to make THEIR lives a better place, because, I repeat again, that's the only way you'll not get slaughtered.
i didn't express myself properly... sorry. it's useful alright! but how exactly is it practical? it's easy to say "do this and that", but we can't if there's no way to do it.
Bah. "Shit happens so it's cool." NO, it's NOT cool. You know what the Israeli government should do?
1) Issue a fine for every discriminatory remark made (as long as it wasn't in jest).
2) Strictly forbid ANY military personnel to treat Palestinians as a lower form of life under punishment of prison (unless, of course, the Palestinian is trying to blow them up).
3) Strictly forbid the military personnel to use violence on anyone, unless in self-defense or to make sure someone abides by the rules.
4) Start a campaign to strongly discourage any form of discrimination or violence towards Palestinians.
Those are some really concrete examples that would work, if executed properly. Because diminishing the hatred between people is one of the few sure-fire ways to diminish violence.
And you dismiss that with "shit happens".
huh? what do you mean "it;s cool" i didn't say that... i said it's something of human nature when there are those who can't hold themselves back. an example can be criminals or rapists in every country, which are that ugly part of society which will never be prevented, unless we'll become prophets.
as for punishing those who do that, don't think you're the only smart guy here
all those points(1, 2 ,3 ,4) you maid, exist from day one. it was NEVER legal to do that, and all who did abuse palastinians were punished exactly like they should have.
it was always forbiden to use violence when it wasn't needed. the thing is rules are meant to be broken
there will always be those exepcional who will brake the rules. it can't be avoided, it's the human factor.
Look, you do realise I'm advising the Israelis what to do now, don't you? That means that I'm NOT advising the Palestinians, because the first thing THEY need to do is stop the suicide bombing, stop endorsing terrorists and stop the hate-mongering. But hey, you're not a Palestinian, and I'm talking to YOU now.
that's the thing... even if we did all you said(some things are just not practical, but even if), they still have to do all the things you said they should do. and if they did that, there would be a palastinian country besides ours about 50 years ago...
- Don't build the wall over Palestinian land. You say "why not?". My response to that, is that it creates more hatred. There's no need whatsoever to build it over Palestinian land, so why are you building there?
1. there's no exactly "palastinian land" they don't have any formal land... there's our formal land, and there's no-owner land.
2. "1" is not really relevant, because we have to bulid this wall which will help to prevent borders from being breached, and if you looked at the map of israel, and saw our lands, and their lands, you would see that building a wall is very problematic, and some of our lands will be sacrificed for them, and some of theirs for us. that's no excuse not to bulild a wall because of it(there's no way to bulid a wall whiich won't hinder them AND us...)
Now this, I did not know. Are there any studies or articles you can link me to, because this is good.
i don't know if statistics were documented, but you'll just have to take my word for it if you won't find any. i really do know what i'm talking about, as those suicide bombings just can't be overlooked, and we notice everyone of them BIGTIME when it happens, so we know when it's often, and when it's rare. anyway, this is simply a fact. i'm not fooling you, don't worry
if you'll try to find out for yourself, you'll see i'm totally right. just in order to be sure of what i said, and not give you inaccurate info, i asked other people and they told me exactly those numbers.
about the thing of the "90 percent of terrorist attacks prevented", it's a fact cause it was on the news... i didn't read it on the net, i watched it on live news so i can't find it for you, again, you'll just have to take my word for it...
Hah. Apparently you don't know your own country, there are plenty of Israeli extremists, you just don't see them as extremists because you (partially) agree with them. No, they aren't conducting suicide attacks, but that doesn't mean they aren't extreme.
you said it yourself... "no, they aren't conducting suicide atacks"... they can be "extremists" all they want to, and they can have protests all they want to, but when they don't actually DO anything that's harmful, except saying stuff like "burn all arabs", they are pretty much harmless. all those extremist parties are against the law btw, any many of those fools are behind bars. the only incident of actually a terror act on our behalf, was about 8-10 years ago when a crazy religious idiot(last name goldstein) took an automatic weapon and emptied it on innocent palestinian prayers in a church... don't compare our "extremists" with theirs because of this.
We all understand that, but what we also understand is that they won't go away if you keep killing Palestinians and keep offending them. As you said yourself, there will be more Palestinians than Israelis in about 50-100 years if everything keeps going on this rate, so why do you think that killing them will have any effect?
You see, the more terrorists that are killed, the more rise up and retaliate.
The only way out of that vicious circle is to diminish popular support for them to such a low that they have no way of working anymore, and that can only happen through friendliness, not hatred and fear.
when you say "killing palestinians", what do you mean? the "retaliation missions"? they are not retaliation missions. they are missions which are meant to prevent further incidents of the sort which were done to provoke them(the missions), and like i said, they work like magic. but let's leave that alone.
even if i pretend for a sec that we "kill palestiniants and offend them", you do understand that if we won't do that, terror WILL be the same right? you contradict yourself... just read what you commented on, and then read your comment and you'll see that.
about the 50-100 years thing, that's what's the wall for, and WE DON'T KILL PALASTINIANS! stop saying that for no reason. we kill terrorists, and sometimes innocents get killed too, but that can't be avoided if we want to find terror. if you don't believe me, then you must think you know better than generals and commanders of what could be the best army in the world in fighting terrorist. in our military actions, we think of the option of innocents getting hurt, and we're taking mesures to make it as less as possible, but it's usually not possibe to be totally unavoidable, because of the terrorist's way of fighting us, which includes hiding in civillian homes, and using little children as human shields, and forcing the battle zones to be civillian city streets. you see?
Proof. I'll believe that there are classrooms where this happens, but not that it happens frequently or that it's spread out over the population without any form of proof, just like I won't believe you were brainwashed by your teachers.
fair enough... you have a point there. i can't assume that all schools work this way over there just because i saw that happen a few times on tv. the small difference is, that you won't find ONE time, for that to happen in israel.
As I've said many times before: READ what the fuck I SAY, and DO NOT ATTACH MEANINGS TO MY WORDS THAT AREN'T THERE. This supposition is insulting, stupid and bullshit.
sorry, but that's just what i assume from what you say. if you read this whole topic from start to finish, you'll see why.
