It's again that time of the year ... or Muslim bashing!

[Izak]

Christianity is obviously not the violent religion Islam is otherwise we (a Christian culture) wouldn't have a problem with a moslem shooting up a club full of gays.

I'm sure the Orlando victims would be fine with you using their deaths to further your political agenda.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Why don't videos work?

Because the internet is shit. I live in Australia, and the internet is crappy and SOME workplaces (grrrrr) don't really try at fast internet.

 

[Vergil]

Because two major interpretations have taken hold, the Shia and Sunni sects and with that power they've forced out other sects.

Yes, those are the main two and prominent interpretation so when we refer to the Islamic world we refer to the sects that have any actual power. These other sects of Islam that you speak of are fucking tiny.

It was still a heavily Islamic empire, just because it was the 'most' secular doesn't mean it wasn't. Examples?

Yes but it was when the islamic countries weren't nearly as religious as they now are, and not that Islam has taken a front seat in decision making things have gone to complete shit. We saw this kind of stuff in Iran where once a religious leader was put into power women went from dressing like they do in the West to wearing burkas. Also the examples were already in that wiki article you posted. Actually look up a lot of those big names of the "islamic golden age" such as Ibn al-Muqaffa, Muhammad al Warraq (who may have believed in a god but not Islam), or Ibn al-Rawandi.

Actually you're referring to ROMAN writings, which was a decadent and brutal society.

Are you really going to try and say one of the pillars of Western civilization's writings aren't that important? Also Roman society wasn't nearly as decadent as Hollywood depicts and as far as brutal goes compared to the rest of the world around them I'd say they were pretty fucking civil.

Taking the easy way out I see. Just because they don't look reputable doesn't mean they're not. Remember, they're looking at a fictional text, not the law of gravity and theory of evolution. You don't need some science degree to analyze the bible.

But you should probably consider a degree in theology before you start trying to claim you can interpret a text that has been translated and retranslated and then translated again that also talks about complex topics better than centuries of theologians before you.

o Jesus was exaggerating and making shit up?
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
(Last time I checked, heaven and earth did not disappear)
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I've already explained this to you.

All that means is that RADICAL Islam is on a rise, which it is. Keep in mind that Anders Breivik killed 77 people to further a pro-Christian Europe while the Orlando Shooting had 49 people being killed. The reason why Muslims are doing the worst terrorist attacks are because of well armed Islamic extremist groups, many which have been funded by world powers like the US or Russia.

This doesn't go against anything I've advocated for. I've never said I supported the US's decision to fund any of these groups but I don't think that also means it's ok to flood our streets with them and let innocent civilians get raped and murdered by extremists.

What people?

Islamic extremists.

I'm sure the Orlando victims would be fine with you using their deaths to further your political agenda.

So nobody should ever talk about terrorism ever because it's "using deaths to further a political agenda"? I guess we should just shut the whole thread down then guys. Mentioning any kind of atrocity and saying that maybe we shouldn't let in the people who cause all these deaths is furthering a political agenda. This makes the point totally null and void now. Should we not take terrorist attacks into consideration when making decisions?

 

[Throatpunch]

But that is a different story. However, I think the largest part of the fighting aginst Daesh, was not done by the west. I doubt our bombing campaigns really ruined them. IT have been the people, there who fought against them. Like the kurdish fighters. Assads troops. And the current government of Iraq. Well that part that fights Daesh.

They do fight Daesh, but not as effectively as we have. Its the Iraqi/Kurdish and US forces working in concert that have seriously damaged them.

These are just two of the many fronts in both countries where the militants are being squeezed, stretched and pushed back, Front-line commanders no longer speak of a scarily formidable foe but of Islamic State defences that crumble within days and fighters who flee at the first sign they are under attack. The U.S. military estimated earlier this year that the Islamic State had lost 40 percent of the territory it controlled at its peak in 2014, a figure that excludes the most recent advances.
In eastern Syria, the seizure late last month of the town of Shadadi by the Kurdish YPG — aided by U.S. Special Forces — was accompanied by the capture of nearly 1,000 square miles of territory.The operation was planned to take place over weeks. Instead, the town fell within days, said a senior U.S. administration official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to talk candidly.
“Shadadi was going to be a major six-week operation,” he said. “The ISIS guys had dug trenches and everything. Instead, they completely collapsed. They’re collapsing town by town.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...east-250-isis-militants-in-iraq-a7110406.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/ne...Air-Force-releases-video-airstrikes-ISIL.html

 

[Crossfire]

I'm sure the Orlando victims would be fine with you using their deaths to further your political agenda.

Come on, that's absurd. You're better than that.

Because the internet is shit. I live in Australia, and the internet is crappy and SOME workplaces (grrrrr) don't really try at fast internet.

I know what you mean. I'm an Australian but I live in New Zealand. It's the same story here.

Actually you're referring to ROMAN writings, which was a decadent and brutal society.

Decadent and brutal relative to what? Ancient Rome forms the bedrock of Western Civilization and is one of the things that makes the western tradition so uniquely bent towards things like democracy, religious freedom and property laws.

 

[Izak]

So nobody should ever talk about terrorism ever because it's "using deaths to further a political agenda"? I guess we should just shut the whole thread down then guys. Mentioning any kind of atrocity and saying that maybe we shouldn't let in the people who cause all these deaths is furthering a political agenda. This makes the point totally null and void now.

First of all, this thread wasn't made to discuss the intricacies of Islamic terrorism, you derailed it into that, this thread was for Crni to air his fears that anti-Muslim violence would become more commonplace.
Secondly, there's a difference between lamenting the deaths of 49 people and suggesting ways to stop another tragedy like that from happening, and cynically using their deaths to basically say "Muslims are evil, keep them out or else they'll do it again!", that's a despicable tactic populists always use.

Ancient Rome forms the bedrock of Western Civilization and is one of the things that makes the western tradition so uniquely bent towards things like democracy, religious freedom and property laws.

It was Greece that started all those things, Rome just aped their culture, sort of like Japan did with China.

Because the internet is shit. I live in Australia, and the internet is crappy and SOME workplaces (grrrrr) don't really try at fast internet.

Out of curiosity, have you gotten NBN yet?

 

[Dr Fallout]

Yes, those are the main two and prominent interpretation so when we refer to the Islamic world we refer to the sects that have any actual power. These other sects of Islam that you speak of are fucking tiny.

Sadly yes, it's a shame that radicals usually get what they want.

Yes but it was when the islamic countries weren't nearly as religious as they now are, and not that Islam has taken a front seat in decision making things have gone to complete shit. We saw this kind of stuff in Iran where once a religious leader was put into power women went from dressing like they do in the West to wearing burkas. Also the examples were already in that wiki article you posted. Actually look up a lot of those big names of the "islamic golden age" such as Ibn al-Muqaffa, Muhammad al Warraq (who may have believed in a god but not Islam), or Ibn al-Rawandi.

So? They were still Muslim and their leadership was equivalent of the papacy (a Caliph was basically the pope/king), and Muslim thought was encouraged throughout the empire. They were just as a religious as their Christian counterparts, but to a much lesser radical degree. They believed in God as fervently as radicals do now, but interpreted things differently. Great examples, none of them provided anything other then criticism and poetry. The big names of scientific advances in the Islamic Golden Age were Muslim.

Are you really going to try and say one of the pillars of Western civilization's writings aren't that important? Also Roman society wasn't nearly as decadent as Hollywood depicts and as far as brutal goes compared to the rest of the world around them I'd say they were pretty fucking civil.

Where... oh you think that Christianity was one the pillars of Western civilization. Yes it was, but that only happened later. Little to no Christian texts that were not connected to the Bible were written at the time, keeping in mind the Christianity used Roman science for the next several hundred years. Rome was a society built on conquest and slavery. Also, their democracy was corrupt and inefficient.
http://www.roman-empire.net/children/evils.html

But you should probably consider a degree in theology before you start trying to claim you can interpret a text that has been translated and retranslated and then translated again that also talks about complex topics better than centuries of theologians before you.

A theological degree is basically an excuse to claim interpretive superiority over others. Having a degree of theology means you interpret it well or 'correctly' according to where you got it.

I've already explained this to you.

No you haven't. You mentioned that the new testament says the law is invalid. Jesus says otherwise.

This doesn't go against anything I've advocated for. I've never said I supported the US's decision to fund any of these groups but I don't think that also means it's ok to flood our streets with them and let innocent civilians get raped and murdered by extremists.

I know, my main point (which you ignored) is that some of the worst terrorist attacks in the world were done by Christian radicals.

Islamic extremists.

Around 1% of the Islamic population. Apparently only 325,000 Muslims are under risk of being radical in comparison to the billions Muslims there are, according to the Intelligence reports by most countries.

I know what you mean. I'm an Australian but I live in New Zealand. It's the same story here.

Out of curiosity, have you gotten NBN yet?

No... hmm maybe I should. And yeah, I don't expect it to be better in New Zealand. It's fucking annoying.

 

[Vergil]

First of all, this thread wasn't made to discuss the intricacies of Islamic terrorism, you derailed it into that, this thread was for Crni to air his fears that anti-Muslim violence would become more commonplace.

Yes but in doing so he also greatly downplayed the effects of islamic terrorism and mentioned Germany's current situation on dealing with the threat of islamic terrorism. I never derailed the thread into discussing the intricacies, I called him out on his downplaying of islamic terrorism and claim that Germany is doing a good job. And when he asked what I would do instead I told him. Never did I ask to have this sit down as we talk about ancient Rome and discuss theology.

Secondly, there's a difference between lamenting the deaths of 49 people and suggesting ways to stop another tragedy like that from happening

You mean like I've been doing this whole fucking thread?

using their deaths to basically say "Muslims are evil, keep them out or else they'll do it again!", that's a despicable tactic populists always use.

I'm not "using" their deaths for anything. I am stating the fact that they were killed in an islamic terror attack and that this attack and many others show that we shouldn't be importing massive fucking quantities of these people when we have already have multiple mass shootings with the ones we've already brought in!

It was Greece that started all those things, Rome just aped their culture, sort of like Japan did with China.

History isn't your strong suit is it? That's right guys, Rome sucks, just copied Greece. Same with Japan, all their innovation and history? Nah fuck that shit it's all due to the Chinese.

I'm pretty disappointed to be honest. I used to expect a lot better of your replies but you gone totally off the rails now.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Rome aped Greece's culture (and only to a point), not their technology or politics.

 

[Izak]

History isn't your strong suit is it? That's right guys, Rome sucks, just copied Greece. Same with Japan, all their innovation and history? Nah fuck that shit it's all due to the Chinese.

History obviously isn't your strongsuit. Yes, Rome aped Greek culture, do you think it's a coincidence that Roman gods are basically Greek ones with different names? That they all wore togas? That they became a republic? Man, fucking odd that Rome developed those all independently even though Greece was doing the exact same shit for hundreds of years and was only a short distance away.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

You know, this site has an ignore button, spamming threads is basically pointless considering that.

 

[Crossfire]

It was Greece that started all those things, Rome just aped their culture, sort of like Japan did with China.

Yeah, but the Romans did it better and spread it everywhere they went, granting Europeans, centuries later, the opportunity to reconvene the democratic project. I'm not sure how the Greeks were on religious freedom but I doubt they were as big on it as the Romans were (before Constantine, that is).

You have to remember that having a democracy in your culturally homogeneous city-state is one thing but taking that concept and applying it to a continental empire, with all the diversity that brings, is another entirely. The Greeks were philosophers and artists so the credit for conceiving of democracy goes to them. But, the Romans, they were engineers and what they get credit for is bringing it to the big picture.

First of all, this thread wasn't made to discuss the intricacies of Islamic terrorism, you derailed it into that, this thread was for Crni to air his fears that anti-Muslim violence would become more commonplace.
Secondly, there's a difference between lamenting the deaths of 49 people and suggesting ways to stop another tragedy like that from happening, and cynically using their deaths to basically say "Muslims are evil, keep them out or else they'll do it again!", that's a despicable tactic populists always use.

The tragedy in Orlando is relevant to the discussion. Vergil can bring it up if it helps him better serve his point. Even if his argument is simply "Muslims are evil, keep them out or else they'll do it again!" (which I don't, I give him the credit of believing it's more nuanced than that), if the events at Orlando help him elucidate some truth that supports such an argument than I see no reason why you should sit on some kind of moral high ground and scold him for doing so. This is a political issue and everybody here has a political agenda simply by virtue of showing up.

 

[Vergil]

So? They were still Muslim and their leadership was equivalent of the papacy (a Caliph was basically the pope/king), and Muslim thought was encouraged throughout the empire. They were just as a religious as their Christian counterparts, but to a much lesser radical degree. They believed in God as fervently as radicals do now, but interpreted things differently. Great examples, none of them provided anything other then criticism and poetry. The big names of scientific advances in the Islamic Golden Age were Muslim.

But being a moslem wasn't required like it is in the islamic world now. They obviously weren't as strict with they're beliefs as islamic countries are now.

Where... oh you think that Christianity was one the pillars of Western civilization. Yes it was, but that only happened later. Little to no Christian texts that were not connected to the Bible were written at the time, keeping in mind the Christianity used Roman science for the next several hundred years.

No that's not what I was saying at all. I was referring to Rome being a pillar of Western civilization.

Also, their democracy was corrupt and inefficient.
http://www.roman-empire.net/children/evils.html

So were the Greeks, who also owned slaves. You'll have to excuse the fucking founders of Western Civilization itself for not having figured things totally out yet.

A theological degree is basically an excuse to claim interpretive superiority over others. Having a degree of theology means you interpret it well or 'correctly' according to where you got it.

So instead of listening to people with at least some education in the topic I should just listen to some random website on the internet, got it. Not to mention the centuries of theologians who studied and interpreted the Bible.

No you haven't. You mentioned that the new testament says the law is invalid. Jesus says otherwise.

Jesus says he was there to not to abolish but to fulfill the law which he did by sacrificing himself and starting a new covenant with man.

I know, my main point (which you ignored) is that some of the worst terrorist attacks in the world were done by Christian radicals.

And more of the worst terrorist attacks have been done by moslem radicals. It wasn't Christians who flew planes into the twin towers and completely changed the way entire world works due to the aftermath of the attack.

Around 1% of the Islamic population. Apparently only 325,000 Muslims are under risk of being radical in comparison to the billions Muslims there are, according to the Intelligence reports by most countries.

Oh boy, it's this "peaceful majority" meme again.

35% of Palestinians have a favorable opinion of Al Qeada.http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/09/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Project-Extremism-Report-Final-9-10-135.pdf
40% of British Muslims want Shariah law.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
1 in eight Muslims worldwide has a favorable view of al Quaeda.http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/09/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Project-Extremism-Report-Final-9-10-135.pdf
1 in 3 Muslims favorably views Hamas, a known terrorist organization.http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/09/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Project-Extremism-Report-Final-9-10-135.pdf
25% of Egyptian Muslims support terrorist attacks to enforce Shariah law.http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/09/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Project-Extremism-Report-Final-9-10-135.pdf
1/5 British Muslims sympathize with the 7/7 terrorist attack.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
65% of European Muslims believe that Shariah law is more important than the law of the country they reside in.https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf
European Muslims are 7.5x more likely to be fundamentalists than Christians.https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf
45% of European Muslims believe that Jews cannot be trusted.https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf
60% of European Muslims are explicitly homphobic. This is not due to poverty or education.https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf
40% of Palestinians support attacks on US civilians in America.http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
87% of Egyptians agree with Al Qaeda's goals.http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
78% of Egyptians support attacks on US soldiers in the Middle East.http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
62% of Palestinians support the use of suicide bombings.http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/09/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Project-Extremism-Report-Final-9-10-135.pdf
28% of British Muslims would like for Britain to become a fundamentalist Islamic state.http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-british-muslims-put-islam-first/
68% of British Muslims support criminalizing criticism of Islam.http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-british-muslims-put-islam-first/
3 out of 4 British Muslims support criminalizing drawings of Mohammed.http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-british-muslims-put-islam-first/
9% of British Muslims define themselves as "hardcore Islamists".http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-british-muslims-put-islam-first/
Only 3% of British Muslims support free speech. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-british-muslims-put-islam-first/
0/500 British Muslims believe that homosexuality is morally acceptable.http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
38% of Muslims believe 9/11 was partially or wholly justified.http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/just-like-us-really
62% of Canadian Muslims want Shariah law.http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/01/strong-support-for-shariah-in-canada
More than 1 in 3 Canadian Muslims refuses to repudiate Al Qaeda.http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/01/strong-support-for-shariah-in-canada
Britain will become a Muslim country by 2050 if demographic trends continue.http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3770/the_islamic_future_of_britain
At least 85 legally binding Sharia courts operate in Britain.http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf
85% of rapists in Sweden were non-Swedish immigrants.http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
North African migrants to Sweden are 23 times more likely to rape than native Swedes.http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
African migrants to Sweden are 16 times more likely to rape than ethnic Swedes.http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
Iraqi migrants to Sweden are 2000% more likely to rape than real Swedes.http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
More than 1/2 of rapists in Denmark are immigrants.http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
In 2012 there were 7 known countries in the world where the state could execute you for being atheist. Every single one was officially Islamic.
There are 5 places in the world that still have amputation as a form of legal punishment. Every single one is officially Islamic.
There are 4 places in the world that still have beheading as a method of execution. Every single one is officially Islamic.
The use of the death penalty (hangings, decapitations, etc.) to implement the Shari'ah continues to increase year by year.

History obviously isn't your strongsuit. Yes, Rome aped Greek culture, do you think it's a coincidence that Roman gods are basically Greek ones with different names? That they all wore togas? That they became a republic? Man, fucking odd that Rome developed those all independently even though Greece was doing the exact same shit for hundreds of years and was only a short distance away.

Rome took obvious inspiration from Greek literature and art but to basically dismiss their entire history as "eh, they're just a rip off of the greeks" is fucking retarded.

 

[valcik]

.. it just so happens that the politics of the Middle East and Northern Africa are married to Islam.

Spot on, that's the point.
Too bad that we cannot forbid islamism the same way as any other totalitarian ideology. Unlike nazism mentioned by Crni in his example, with any open manifestation of nazist ideology or nazist symbols strictly forbidden by law in most of western world, islamism can spread freely due to its religious nature.

 

[Throatpunch]

We mustn't label all Muslims as bad raping terrorists. We work with the Kurd's and Iraqi's to defeat ISIS, they are not the same as ISIS.
Stopping Muslims from entering the US and becoming anti - Muslim would make it harder to build the coalition we need to defeat ISIS with the Kurds, and the Kurds are Muslim.

 

[Vergil]

We mustn't label all Muslims as bad raping terrorists. We work with the Kurd's and Iraqi's to defeat ISIS, they are not the same as ISIS.
Stopping Muslims from entering the US and becoming anti - Muslim would make it harder to build the coalition we need to defeat ISIS with the Kurds, and the Kurds are Muslim.

I really don't think we need Iraq and the Kurds to take care of ISIS. And we certainly don't need to allow massive amounts of migrants into our countries to defeat ISIS either.

 

[Throatpunch]

I really don't think we need Iraq and the Kurds to take care of ISIS.

The Iraqi Military is useful and an effective tool against ISIS. They have retaken Fallujah:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-islamic-state-daesh-iraqi-army-a7103931.html
and almost Tikrit:


and there airstrikes are excellent:


The Kurds are our most reliable partners, so we need to support them properly. They are the most loyal and committed forces fighting against ISIS not because they want to serve the West but because they want to save their own lives. US help for the Kurds is critical to defeat ISIS.
http://articles.philly.com/2016-01-25/news/70038722_1_iraqi-kurdish-isis-massoud-barzani

don't need to allow massive amounts of migrants

Well, have you ever actually thought about moderating migration, because your only solution is a blanket ban and that will be detrimental to the West. There needn't be a blanket ban, but some kind of points system.

 

[Vergil]

If we actually fully committed ourselves to taking out ISIS we wouldn't need them. And I really don't see how a temporary ban would be detrimental to the West. There not exactly bringing in very useful and productive members of society.

 

[Hassknecht]

Just a friendly reminder that alt-accounts are not allowed. Especially not if you're gonna use the same static IP as your regular account so I can see who it is...

 

[Vergil]

Just a friendly reminder that alt-accounts are not allowed. Especially not if you're gonna use the same static IP as your regular account so I can see who it is...

 

[Izak]

Rome took obvious inspiration from Greek literature and art but to basically dismiss their entire history as "eh, they're just a rip off of the greeks" is fucking retarded.

Where the fuck did I do that?