J.E. Sawyer on the Legion, money and miscellanea

[Ilosar]

Which is why House sets up trade as the core of New Vegas economy: with Vegas energy-independent thanks to Lucky 38's reactor, the entire power output of Hoover Dam can be sold to the NCR, together with virtually limitless clean water.

Crimson Caravans and the like set up most of the trade routes in the game. They are not under House's authority. The only people that explicitely are under his command are those on the Strip, and they're not teaders, they're casino holders.

Furthermore, he explicitly states that he'll need half a century to restart the high technology industry (which includes heavy industry as a prerequsite), with the goal of putting people in space in a hundred years. Which isn't that implausible, considering we went from Benz's firt automobile internal comustion engine to Armstrong on the Moon in ninety years, having to invent everything beforehand.

I know this is Fallout science and thus not like ours, but putting Armstrong on the moon was a baby step compared to what is required to move populations from Earth to an habitable planet who knows how many light years away. It's much, much more complicated, and would require positively absurd amount of ressources, ressources that House simply does not have if he sticks to the Mojave. Notice how we've made basically no notable progress from human space transportation since said moon landing. We're far from going to Mars, let alone leaving our star system. The whole going to other planets thing is utterly idiotic anyway, Earth can be rebuilt (as in food and water pipes et all) by NCR's tech, surely House has something even better in store.

I don't have a problem with a government being dishonest some of the time, it's one of the unfortunate drawbacks of any government. My problem is with how the NCR leadership is almost completely dishonest and corrupt: under the guise of bringing democracy and rule of law to the Mojave, they are pursuing an imperialistic, war mongering agenda. It isn't that they're not hitting their goals - they're not even trying to. It's enough to move Chief Hanlon, a patriot, to sabotaging his own army.

How are they dishonest and corrupt, exactly? Again, the whole ''torch into the Mojave'' is Kimball's speech to NCR troops. it doesn't reflect what other NCR leadership tells you. Moore is pretty crystal clear about her intentions. So are Oliver, Crocker and Hsu. And that's the extent of the leadership here. Moore is a massive bitch and Oliver is a stupid glory hound, but Hsu is an honest, competent guy and the Chief is equal parts tired of Oliver's bullshit and weary of the seemingly endless war. He realizes what he does is a mistake as soon as you confront him with the effects.

I honestly don't see that much corruption and dishonesty here. Flawed, very flawed individuals, certainly. The situation would be much improved by replacing Oliver and Moore with Hsu and Hanlon. But then there would really be not many arguments vs NCR if their leaders were all good, even-handed people.

This is Fallout, each faction needs flaws to be beliavable. I think you are dampening House and the Legion's and grossly amplifying NCR's.

That's why I consider them equally bad. Legion might offer crappy prospects for life if you happen to be enslaved, better if you luck out and become a subject, but at least you are informed upfront that Caesar wants to establish a totalitarian state.

The only thing you're informed up-front is that you're a Profligate barely worthy of being alive. Ceasar tells you his reasons because the PC is special and the Legion needs at least basic motives, but the vast majority of the people probably have no idea what the Legion's purpose is beyond conquer and enslave. Not many people in the Mojave semed to think so at any rate.

Depends on what you mean on leadership. There are no positions that entail real power in the Legion: centurions and decanii are glorified team leaders, liable to be removed at any time for disobedience or failure. Hell, that's one of the reasons Graham was issued a one-way ticket into the Grand Canyon, on fire, despite being a Legate and Caesar's closest friend. Even Lucius, leader of the Praetorian guard, is worrying Caesar, as he might have the respect of other Praetorians, preventing them from challenging him for his position.

A position of power that depends on merit is not a position of power? I don't understand the logic. They are commanders. Graham was in a position of almost absolute power over his troops. Had he been victorious, Ceasar would certainly have rewarded him greatly. He failed, and so he was removed.

By your logic, no one in the current US government has power, since they can all be dismissed/voted out if they do a bad job. Power and leadership doesn't mean you are untouchable or not accountable for your actions. Quite the opposite in fact, IMO.

As for women, it isn't stated anywhere that they are subservient to men. They have different responsibilities that don't cross with the responsibilities of legionaries. The real problem is the attitude of the latter, which isn't something Caesar can fix.

Erm, let me explain it simply. Power in the Legion is concentrated in its soldiers, the Legionaries are literally what is holding it together. Men are soldiers and can command soldiers. Women cannot be soldiers and cannot command soldiers. Women will be regarded as second-class, since they cannot wield power. End of story.

Also, Ceasar has absolute power over his people and has proven he can utterly erase a life of tribal identity, but telling his boys to stop beating and raping women is beyond him? What a sorry excuse.

However, this still brings us back to the original point: Legion is not shown enough in the game.

Completely agreed.

Sell it to the NCR, which needs energy and water from Hoover Dam. House only unleased his Securitrons on the Legion, as a demonstration of his power, subsequently demanding the capitulation and withdrawal of all NCR military from the Mojave.

This move is calculated to see that Kimball and Oliver fall from public grace and their imperialist policy is abandoned by the Republic (aided by Hanlon and others), but in such a way, as to keep the NCR as a business partner. House has nothing against the NCR, if they are not scheming to steal Vegas out from under him.

Not sure he has nothing against NCR. Remember is ''look by the window'' comment. Also, if he wants to become an economic powerhouse, he can't just dick around in New Vegas forever. He has to expand. Sooner or later those rich NCR territories full of competent, educated labors will become tempting, maybe.

But anyway, I think House simplifies a lot. Yes, in the immediate time Kimball and co. will be blamed, but NCR won,t soon forget that he kicked them out of a region of great strategic and economic importance. NCR needs to expand and grow. Maybe it will turn its eyes elsewhere (Mexico?) but just forget about him as soon as Kimball is out? I doubt so. Politics are not an exact science by any means. House's inability to see the world as anything else than a chessboard or a math equation is his greatest weakness, imo. The world doesn't fit in his tight little model. In 3 scenarios out of 4, the Courier doesn't fit in his perfect master plan.

The entire deal is actually better for the Republic, as instead of wasting men and money on the Mojave, they can cut their military spending and devote the surplus to purchasing energy and water from House, who is then responsible for keeping the Mojave safe. Plus, the neutral wasteland there also becomes a buffer zone between the Legion and the Republic, as well as a trade hub for commercial activity.

Except that since House controls the energy supply, he can blackmail NCR to no end. Jack up the energy price to ridiculous levels, and because of the robot army there's not much NCR can do in the short term. House has already shown he has no problem sucking NCR's caps dry, he is certainly capable of doing so again to keep them in check. I seriously doubt this is a good deal for the Republic.

They only do that after Pacer beat up the messenger and the NCR just assumed, without further investigation, that the Kings are hostile.

If I sent a messenger and the recipient's second in command beat him up, I would kinda assume said recipients are hostile.

No, send an envoy with an escort that politely requests a meeting with the King. Or a covert agent to negotiate (like Crocker). Not react by sending a death squad like Moore.

You said it yourself, it's an initiative cooked up by a small force led by Kieran and maintained by her contacts, not an official government-led program or something. Crooker is not NCR military, he might not even know about it. They simply cannot allow to start a diplomatic offensive, they need to law low, lest they become swarmed by locals wanting handouts.

Not really. The Followers aren't pacifists, otherwise why would they have armed guards at the fort?

Mercenaries. As in, not part of the Followers. Because they also aren't stupid, a camp full of medicine, food and drugs in the middle of Freeside guarded only by doctors and Arcade is a giant target begging to be looted.

Why would Tom Anderson consider killing an NCR investigator justified to maintain Westside?

He's obviously desperate and knows that NCR won't take kindly to having their farms die out to fuel Westside's. Bill Rompe's pump is one thing, drying up the Sharecropper farms is quite another.

How the people of the Mojave are represented in the process of annexation? They are not. Are they protected? Primm is evidence that they're not, as well as outer Vegas, Freeside, Westside, Novac etc. Services? See above.

You seemed to have missed what I said. Before the NCR victory, nobody in the Mojave pays taxes. Thus they logically do not have the right to the protection, services and representation granted by NCR. After the NCR victory, then they pay taxes, and should obtain those rights. What I mean is that it is not said if they do or don't in the epilogue, and thus saying that the Mojave is not represented when it should be is just false. The locals aren't NCR citizens until the Second Battle, why should they be represented beforehand?

The Legion does tax the people, but it makes them *safe* and gives them prosperity in return. It also doesn't pretend it's being just and equal at the same time.

I would like to see such safety and prosperity in-game, not have it told on a formspring account years after the game is released, in complete contradiction with almost everything we see in-game.

You're contradicting yourself. You're saying that the NCR wouldn't be providing protection for free, but also stating that they are, because they're not drawing taxes from people in the wastes.

They are because the locals happen to be in the place NCR wants to defend. If Hoover dam was their sole objective, they probably would not care about the Fiends until New Vegas was annexed, and so on. It seems simple to me.

As for the rest... Lack of representation was addressed above.

No it wasn't.

Mass enslavement doesn't happen - a lot of people end up slaves

Reread that statement again. ''a lot of people end up being slaves'' counts as mass enslavement. The exact quote is ''much'', which is by convention a majority. Yeah, the critera aren,t disclosed, so we need to work with what we have. I just need to know ''much'' of the population was enslaved to know that this outcome is not desirable at all.

Also, how do those quotes matter? Anderson doesn't like NCR because he wants to protect Westside from them, and Jules is a North Vegas drifter.

Look, my own bottom line is that I don't pity the people of New Vegas much. The place is a serious shithole. Only district that fares well is Westside, and that's because they basically steal the water NCR intends for their crops. The rest is mostly thugs, squatters, druggies and House's playthings in the Strip. If they had shown to be capable people on their own right their plights would have mattered more to me, but as it is they sound like people who want to sit on their asses and have NCR and House hand them out everything no strings attached, on the pretense that they squat some old ruins.

 

[ramessesjones]

Crimson Caravans and the like set up most of the trade routes in the game. They are not under House's authority. The only people that explicitely are under his command are those on the Strip, and they're not teaders, they're casino holders.

Even if they aren't under his authority the have allowed Vegas to be major trade hub of the region.

How are they dishonest and corrupt, exactly

The most notable example is game is Heck Gunderson. He bribes senators who in turn allow him to hire mercenaries to force other ranchers off their land and give it to him. That is a severe example of corruption at the highest level of their government.

Erm, let me explain it simply. Power in the Legion is concentrated in its soldiers, the Legionaries are literally what is holding it together. Men are soldiers and can command soldiers. Women cannot be soldiers and cannot command soldiers. Women will be regarded as second-class, since they cannot wield power. End of story.

The game doesn't even show the full role women have or how they are organized. They may have their own separate power structure they may not, you're jumping to conclusions. The Legion as it was originally designed for Van Buren did have separate "priestess" positions for women, I assume these people would have some authority or power structure associated with their organization.

Except that since House controls the energy supply, he can blackmail NCR to no end. Jack up the energy price to ridiculous levels, and because of the robot army there's not much NCR can do in the short term. House has already shown he has no problem sucking NCR's caps dry, he is certainly capable of doing so again to keep them in check. I seriously doubt this is a good deal for the Republic.

I don't think he can bully them too much, as he needs to maintain good relations with NCR, because he needs the Gunderson types in his casinos, free trade with the likes of Crimson Caravan and needs to keep friendly enough to prevent a future invasion. Keeping the cost fair makes him plenty of money but makes any possible invasion by NCR not worth the cost of resources and human life. They need his energy, but he needs to be careful to not push his demands too far.

Thus they logically do not have the right to the protection, services and representation granted by NCR.

Primm begin paying taxes as soon as NCR takes over as sheriff, but they are completely abandoned in multiple endings.

If they had shown to be capable people on their own right their plights would have mattered more to me, but as it is they sound like people who want to sit on their asses and have NCR and House hand them out everything no strings attached, on the pretense that they squat some old ruins.

This statement is ridiculous. The Garrets aren't capable? Mick and Ralph aren't? The people in Novac or Goodsprings aren't? Nash isn't? Marcus isn't capable? The Boomers aren't capable? There are a lot of people working hard and getting things done in the Mojave, even if building it up is a slow process.

 

[Ilosar]

Even if they aren't under his authority the have allowed Vegas to be major trade hub of the region.

Tag's point was that it was House's doing. It wasn't. Most of these outfits come from California, even if they aren't NCR. The Gun Runners are almost a branch of their military at this point, at least Alexander says so.

The most notable example is game is Heck Gunderson. He bribes senators who in turn allow him to hire mercenaries to force other ranchers off their land and give it to him. That is a severe example of corruption at the highest level of their government.

As Tagaziel himself said, one example does not a trend make. Also, while this does suck, it's not remotely as bad as mass slavery in my books.

The game doesn't even show the full role women have or how they are organized.

They are not ''organized''. They are slaves. Some of them are centurion,s wives, but I very strongly doubt they wield the same powers as their husbands.

They may have their own separate power structure they may not, you're jumping to conclusions. The Legion as it was originally designed for Van Buren did have separate "priestess" positions for women, I assume these people would have some authority or power structure associated with their organization.

Jumping to conclusions? The only women we see in the Legion as slaves. You tell me they have their own power structure somewhere without the game hinting at this one bit, beyond the women being ''priestresses''. They could very well be mere mouthpieces spouting out what Mighty Ceasar wants them to. You assume things that aren,t even touched in-game.

I don't think he can bully them too much, as he needs to maintain good relations with NCR, because he needs the Gunderson types in his casinos, free trade with the likes of Crimson Caravan and needs to keep friendly enough to prevent a future invasion. Keeping the cost fair makes him plenty of money but makes any possible invasion by NCR not worth the cost of resources and human life. They need his energy, but he needs to be careful to not push his demands too far.

Point taken, but I still think the situation is far from ideal for NCR.

Primm begin paying taxes as soon as NCR takes over as sheriff, but they are completely abandoned in multiple endings.

And then stop paying taxes, unless House or the Legion takes over. As said, it's a backwater border town, NCR is not going to do a last stand there. They just leave the town and whomever wins takes over.

This statement is ridiculous. The Garrets aren't capable? Mick and Ralph aren't? The people in Novac or Goodsprings aren't? Nash isn't? Marcus isn't capable? The Boomers aren't capable? There are a lot of people working hard and getting things done in the Mojave, even if building it up is a slow process.

I was speaking of New Vegas itself, not the entire Mojave. Most of the outlying towns are fine.

In your example, there are two businesses owned by locals in the city, which great. Some do a few odd jobs, such as Bill Rompe, or are mercenaries. The majority of New Vegas's NPCs outside the Strip and Westside? Squatters, druggies and thugs. Just look around. Hell, even Westside only manages to have an economy rolling because they steal NCR water. Seeing this, I'm not really surprised NCR doesn't care much about the locals. I cetainly don't overly do.

 

[ramessesjones]

Tag's point was that it was House's doing. It wasn't. Most of these outfits come from California, even if they aren't NCR. The Gun Runners are almost a branch of their military at this point, at least Alexander says so.

It's at least partially his doing because he made the area appealing to the open branch, due to the money and people the casinos and dam bring into the area and the security he created by pacifying the local tribes. If House doesn't do his thing first, they don't really have any reason to be there.

As Tagaziel himself said, one example does not a trend make. Also, while this does suck, it's not remotely as bad as mass slavery in my books.

It's implied elsewhere in the game that their corruption is more widespread. Although I agree its not shown directly much. Their senators in Fallout 2 where involved in a quite some of shady dealings as well, so they have a history there. I agree they are better than the Legion. But this type of corruption is definitely something that would make independence or House's more hands off approach more appealing.

They are not ''organized''. They are slaves. Some of them are centurion,s wives, but I very strongly doubt they wield the same powers as their husbands.

Their soldiers are also slaves but are organized and have power structures. Female slaves could have the same thing, we don't know, it isn't shown in the game.

You assume things that aren,t even touched in-game.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm saying because it's not shown in game, we don't know what really is going on. Women likely make up a significant majority of the population of Legion, as they likely have a much longer life expectancy and they are less likely to killed when the tribe is first conquered and all we really see are a couple front line slaves that aren't involved in the main task of the Legion women, birthing and raising children.

And then stop paying taxes, unless House or the Legion takes over. As said, it's a backwater border town, NCR is not going to do a last stand there. They just leave the town and whomever wins takes over.

I see no reason for them to abandon the town under the Independent ending, the Courier put them in charge there, so I don't think they are in any danger, keeping a small presence there. All they really have to do is leave one guy there to act as sheriff, but they don't even do that.

I was speaking of New Vegas itself, not the entire Mojave. Most of the outlying towns are fine.

In your example, there are two businesses owned by locals in the city, which great. Some do a few odd jobs, such as Bill Rompe, or are mercenaries. The majority of New Vegas's NPCs outside the Strip and Westside? Squatters, druggies and thugs. Just look around. Hell, even Westside only manages to have an economy rolling because they steal NCR water. Seeing this, I'm not really surprised NCR doesn't care much about the locals. I cetainly don't overly do.

The NCR imposes their will over some of the outside areas as well, so their dislike of NCR seems relevant. I agree most of Freeside mostly sucks, especially Pacer, but it is a fairly new community as is making at least a little progress.

 

[Tagaziel]

Crimson Caravans and the like set up most of the trade routes in the game. They are not under House's authority. The only people that explicitely are under his command are those on the Strip, and they're not teaders, they're casino holders.

You did notice I'm referring to post-All or Nothing Vegas, right?

Furthermore, he explicitly states that he'll need half a century to restart the high technology industry (which includes heavy industry as a prerequsite), with the goal of putting people in space in a hundred years. Which isn't that implausible, considering we went from Benz's firt automobile internal comustion engine to Armstrong on the Moon in ninety years, having to invent everything beforehand.

I know this is Fallout science and thus not like ours, but putting Armstrong on the moon was a baby step compared to what is required to move populations from Earth to an habitable planet who knows how many light years away. It's much, much more complicated, and would require positively absurd amount of ressources, ressources that House simply does not have if he sticks to the Mojave. Notice how we've made basically no notable progress from human space transportation since said moon landing. We're far from going to Mars, let alone leaving our star system. The whole going to other planets thing is utterly idiotic anyway, Earth can be rebuilt (as in food and water pipes et all) by NCR's tech, surely House has something even better in store.

Yes, rebuilding the Earth so that people can then travel to the stars.

I'm baffled that you're claiming, with a straight face no less, that because House doesn't have access to such resources right now, he won't ever have them. It's particularly baffling when one considers that us not reaching beyond the Moon isn't a result of technical limitations, so much as political decisions and budget cuts.

How are they dishonest and corrupt, exactly? Again, the whole ''torch into the Mojave'' is Kimball's speech to NCR troops. it doesn't reflect what other NCR leadership tells you. Moore is pretty crystal clear about her intentions. So are Oliver, Crocker and Hsu. And that's the extent of the leadership here. Moore is a massive bitch and Oliver is a stupid glory hound, but Hsu is an honest, competent guy and the Chief is equal parts tired of Oliver's bullshit and weary of the seemingly endless war. He realizes what he does is a mistake as soon as you confront him with the effects.

I honestly don't see that much corruption and dishonesty here. Flawed, very flawed individuals, certainly. The situation would be much improved by replacing Oliver and Moore with Hsu and Hanlon. But then there would really be not many arguments vs NCR if their leaders were all good, even-handed people.

This is Fallout, each faction needs flaws to be beliavable. I think you are dampening House and the Legion's and grossly amplifying NCR's.

I've explained the point enough times already. If you don't understand how the top leadership that is responsible for all policies of the NCR and their implementation is corrupt and thus the effect of their actions is an imperialistic, warmongering agenda that stomps over free people of the wasteland by this point, no amount of explanation will ever make you understand.

Here are some keywords, maybe they will make you understand: Annexation under the guise of liberation. Military occupation instead of equal representation. Assassination instead of cooperation.

The only thing you're informed up-front is that you're a Profligate barely worthy of being alive. Ceasar tells you his reasons because the PC is special and the Legion needs at least basic motives, but the vast majority of the people probably have no idea what the Legion's purpose is beyond conquer and enslave. Not many people in the Mojave semed to think so at any rate.

So?

A position of power that depends on merit is not a position of power? I don't understand the logic. They are commanders. Graham was in a position of almost absolute power over his troops. Had he been victorious, Ceasar would certainly have rewarded him greatly. He failed, and so he was removed.

By your logic, no one in the current US government has power, since they can all be dismissed/voted out if they do a bad job. Power and leadership doesn't mean you are untouchable or not accountable for your actions. Quite the opposite in fact, IMO.

Straw man. In the US military you aren't literally crucified for mistakes, set on fire and thrown into the Grand Canyon for a failed military operation or hacked apart by Marines for disobeying the President.

Power, by definition, includes tolerance for mistakes and margin for error, as well as partial immunity. Without that it's an illusion.

Erm, let me explain it simply. Power in the Legion is concentrated in its soldiers, the Legionaries are literally what is holding it together. Men are soldiers and can command soldiers. Women cannot be soldiers and cannot command soldiers. Women will be regarded as second-class, since they cannot wield power. End of story.

Power in the Legion is concentrated in the hand of Caesar. That's it.

There is no other power in the legion. Men and women are separate castes, with separate hierarchies. Legionaries are assholes, but that doesn't change the fact that women aren't subservient to men – they cannot be, for they are a separate hierarchy.

Also, Ceasar has absolute power over his people and has proven he can utterly erase a life of tribal identity, but telling his boys to stop beating and raping women is beyond him? What a sorry excuse.

So it's okay for the NCR to be flawed, but Caesar must be perfect?

Not sure he has nothing against NCR. Remember is ''look by the window'' comment. Also, if he wants to become an economic powerhouse, he can't just dick around in New Vegas forever. He has to expand. Sooner or later those rich NCR territories full of competent, educated labors will become tempting, maybe.

And what makes you think he doesn't want to expand?

NCR becomes a business partner to House after they are kicked out of the Mojave. Why should House attack his best foreign market, when he can expand in every other direction? Arizona, for example. Or the north.

But anyway, I think House simplifies a lot. Yes, in the immediate time Kimball and co. will be blamed, but NCR won,t soon forget that he kicked them out of a region of great strategic and economic importance. NCR needs to expand and grow. Maybe it will turn its eyes elsewhere (Mexico?) but just forget about him as soon as Kimball is out? I doubt so. Politics are not an exact science by any means. House's inability to see the world as anything else than a chessboard or a math equation is his greatest weakness, imo. The world doesn't fit in his tight little model. In 3 scenarios out of 4, the Courier doesn't fit in his perfect master plan.

Kimball's campaign in the Mojave is already unpopular among the electorate by 2281. Its failure would ultimately cause NCR citizens and politicians to refrain from invasion for the next decades, particularly since strategic goals would be, ironically, met: electricity and water from Hoover Dam would continue to flow into the Republic, and money otherwise spent on military wages, ordnance, transport etc. would pay for it.

You also underestimate the importance of commerce. New Vegas is already a regional trade hub. With major economical powers such as Crimson Caravan and Gun Runners, not to mention tens of smaller outfits and individual traders involved with the Mojave, the risk of war becomes smaller. It's bad for business, and no politician is going to risk political suicide by openly attempting to attack a business partner that puts money in so many coffers in the Republic.

Your approach is a gross oversimplification that fails to account for the importance of money in politics.

Except that since House controls the energy supply, he can blackmail NCR to no end. Jack up the energy price to ridiculous levels, and because of the robot army there's not much NCR can do in the short term. House has already shown he has no problem sucking NCR's caps dry, he is certainly capable of doing so again to keep them in check. I seriously doubt this is a good deal for the Republic.

Why would he do that? It's bad for business. House repeatedly states that he doesn't want NCR hostile.

If I sent a messenger and the recipient's second in command beat him up, I would kinda assume said recipients are hostile.

Good thing you aren't a diplomat.

You said it yourself, it's an initiative cooked up by a small force led by Kieran and maintained by her contacts, not an official government-led program or something. Crooker is not NCR military, he might not even know about it. They simply cannot allow to start a diplomatic offensive, they need to law low, lest they become swarmed by locals wanting handouts.

rsrch plz

It was supposed to be an official program, but it was scrapped as soon as NCR could cut it loose. Kieran barely managed to get support for a smaller, conservative relief program. Both are official.

And yes, the NCR can afford diplomatic action. What else is a full relief program that's implemented once the matter is investigated by someone who bothered to do so, if not diplomatic action? What are Crocker's actions?

Mercenaries. As in, not part of the Followers. Because they also aren't stupid, a camp full of medicine, food and drugs in the middle of Freeside guarded only by doctors and Arcade is a giant target begging to be looted.

Which means they aren't pacifists. Every single member of the Followers is also armed, even in the Mormon fort. I'm baffled how did you come to the conclusion that Followers are pacifists.

He's obviously desperate and knows that NCR won't take kindly to having their farms die out to fuel Westside's. Bill Rompe's pump is one thing, drying up the Sharecropper farms is quite another.

They aren't drying up due to Westside drawing some water to fuel their crops? The problem is in Vault 34, not Westside.

Furthermore, Anderson murdered White in cold blood to keep Westside safe. Hardly a pacifist thing; furthermore, premeditated murders are rarely desperate. Read up on criminology.

You seemed to have missed what I said. Before the NCR victory, nobody in the Mojave pays taxes. Thus they logically do not have the right to the protection, services and representation granted by NCR. After the NCR victory, then they pay taxes, and should obtain those rights. What I mean is that it is not said if they do or don't in the epilogue, and thus saying that the Mojave is not represented when it should be is just false. The locals aren't NCR citizens until the Second Battle, why should they be represented beforehand?

You're making shit up. People in the Mojave under NCR protection do pay taxes. There's a reason why annexation of Primm by the NCR only happens once its inhabitants agree to fully support the NCR's wartime effort. And how can they support it? With taxes. Now compare Primm and the choices it has to make with other communities that are protected by the NCR. Why should only Primm be forced to fully support the wartime effort?

Your logic is mind boggling. Mojave inhabitants do not have the right to the protection, services and representation granted by NCR? What are they, untermenschen? Subhumans?

Furthermore, what about the right to self-determination? You're basically stating that Anschluss tactics are all fine and dandy. That it's okay to annex lands using military force, without asking their inhabitants for permission.

What. The. Fuck.

I would like to see such safety and prosperity in-game, not have it told on a formspring account years after the game is released, in complete contradiction with almost everything we see in-game.

The game doesn't depict Legion territories. How can JES contradict something that's not depicted in the game?

They are because the locals happen to be in the place NCR wants to defend. If Hoover dam was their sole objective, they probably would not care about the Fiends until New Vegas was annexed, and so on. It seems simple to me.

You don't have any idea about military campaigns, do you?

Reread that statement again. ''a lot of people end up being slaves'' counts as mass enslavement. The exact quote is ''much'', which is by convention a majority. Yeah, the critera aren,t disclosed, so we need to work with what we have. I just need to know ''much'' of the population was enslaved to know that this outcome is not desirable at all.

Much hardly means a majority. 40% is also much, for example.

Also, how do those quotes matter? Anderson doesn't like NCR because he wants to protect Westside from them, and Jules is a North Vegas drifter.

Yes, they do. They are examples of how local people, or those close to them, view the NCR occupation.

Look, my own bottom line is that I don't pity the people of New Vegas much. The place is a serious shithole. Only district that fares well is Westside, and that's because they basically steal the water NCR intends for their crops. The rest is mostly thugs, squatters, druggies and House's playthings in the Strip. If they had shown to be capable people on their own right their plights would have mattered more to me, but as it is they sound like people who want to sit on their asses and have NCR and House hand them out everything no strings attached, on the pretense that they squat some old ruins.

Talk about a skewed perspective. So, the Mojave inhabitants are subhumans that deserve to be annexed, in your opinion?

 

[Crni Vuk]

the legion is simply the worst option to chose. Cant we agree on that and be finished with it?

 

[Ilosar]

Damn, you taken a level in hostility Tag. I'll just end it here.

...after responding to big reading comprehension failure.

You're making shit up. People in the Mojave under NCR protection do pay taxes. There's a reason why annexation of Primm by the NCR only happens once its inhabitants agree to fully support the NCR's wartime effort. And how can they support it? With taxes. Now compare Primm and the choices it has to make with other communities that are protected by the NCR. Why should only Primm be forced to fully support the wartime effort?

Your logic is mind boggling. Mojave inhabitants do not have the right to the protection, services and representation granted by NCR? What are they, untermenschen? Subhumans?

Furthermore, what about the right to self-determination? You're basically stating that Anschluss tactics are all fine and dandy. That it's okay to annex lands using military force, without asking their inhabitants for permission.

What. The. Fuck.

I thought I had made it crystal clear, don't bring strawman nazi arguments into this, it makes you looks like a fool. If you don't pay taxes, you are not entitled to protection, services ect. Doesn't matter one bit if you're from the Mojave, Colorado, China or the Moon, in theory, no taxes = no soldiers, no elected officals, nothing.

Now, the Mojave is a special case, since it's a vital militarry objective. Thus, NCR is defending the place (as well as the locals, to an extent) without asking for taxes in return, and without granting representation in turn, since the people of New Vegas aren't NCR citizens. That's it, that's my entire goddamn point. Not that they re sub-humans (seriously, what a dumb argument) but that as long as they don't pay taxes like every other State of the Republic, they aren't entitled to anything from NCR. They just get some things because New Vegas must be defended. IF NCR wins, then they become part of it, and presumably pay taxes aand get representation. It's not pointed out in-game, but it's a reasonable guess.

Primm is a special case within the special case (yo dawg), it's the first Mojave town to be well and truly annexed by the NCR. So they pay taxes, and get rights of protection and such. Their epilogue states that they while the taxes area bit heavy, the really benefit from the deal in the end. I really don't see what's so fucking terrible with NCR's approach that enslaving a majoriy of the Mojave is a better solution.

And finally, your precious House also ''uses anchluss tactics''(herpaderp) and takes over the Mojave by force, settling old scores just as well as the NCR. You complained about NCR death squad killing the Kings? Well if they displease him House does the exact same fucking thing with his killbots. Buuuut I guess he gets a free morality pass because he wants us to go to space, eh?

I'm done with this discussion. We're going nowhere.

 

[Tagaziel]

I thought I had made it crystal clear, don't bring strawman nazi arguments into this, it makes you looks like a fool. If you don't pay taxes, you are not entitled to protection, services ect. Doesn't matter one bit if you're from the Mojave, Colorado, China or the Moon, in theory, no taxes = no soldiers, no elected officals, nothing.

Now, the Mojave is a special case, since it's a vital militarry objective. Thus, NCR is defending the place (as well as the locals, to an extent) without asking for taxes in return, and without granting representation in turn, since the people of New Vegas aren't NCR citizens. That's it, that's my entire goddamn point. Not that they re sub-humans (seriously, what a dumb argument) but that as long as they don't pay taxes like every other State of the Republic, they aren't entitled to anything from NCR. They just get some things because New Vegas must be defended. IF NCR wins, then they become part of it, and presumably pay taxes aand get representation. It's not pointed out in-game, but it's a reasonable guess.

Which, again, is not what the NCR's official mission in the Mojave is (see: Kimball, President and head policy maker).

And finally, your precious House also ''uses anchluss tactics''(herpaderp) and takes over the Mojave by force, settling old scores just as well as the NCR. You complained about NCR death squad killing the Kings? Well if they displease him House does the exact same fucking thing with his killbots. Buuuut I guess he gets a free morality pass because he wants us to go to space, eh?

I'm done with this discussion. We're going nowhere.

And you'll keep getting nowhere, if you fail to research and understand concepts, like the quoted Anschluss. It's in no way applicable to House, at all.