J.E. Sawyer on the Legion, money and miscellanea

[Independent George]

I have mixed feelings about these "postgame" interviews. On the one hand, I'm glad they really thought these things through, and that there really is a canon explanation for what we see in the game. On the other hand, it really makes the final game feel even more half-assed than it was.

Don't get me wrong - I loved FNV, especially after wasting so much time with FO3. But starting with the lack of Legion missions in the game, the game just felt incomplete. The fact that there was all of this thought behind the currencies, yet none of it appeared in-game, almost makes me even more irritated at the cut content. Explaining this in-game would have added a LOT of depth to it; learning it now just makes its absence even that much more annoying.

 

[Lexx]

Well, cut content is normal. Just look at the Van Buren design documents. It is very unlikely that all the written down stuff would have appeard in the final game.

 

[Per]

Just look at the Van Buren design documents. It is very unlikely that all the written down stuff would have appeard in the final game.

It is very unlikely that your face would have appeared in the final game. Van Buren would have shipped with all that, more, and gold coins. If you don't believe me, ask Tagaziel, who is very objective about everything that Black Isle/Obsidian do.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

All of the stuff about currency is more or less available in-game and was actually covered before the game came out. I don't know if having more Legion settlements would have fixed the fact that it's difficult to sympathize with a bunch of mass murderers and rapists.

 

[DemonNick]

All of the stuff about currency is more or less available in-game and was actually covered before the game came out. I don't know if having more Legion settlements would have fixed the fact that it's difficult to sympathize with a bunch of mass murderers and rapists.

I don't really think you're supposed to sympathize with the legion, I think you're supposed to sympathize with people like Dale Barton, or to listen when people like Barton, Raul, and IIRC Cass tell you that Legion territory is generally safer and 'fairer' than Republican territory. What happened to Cass's Caravan, for instance, would probably never happen in Legion land. The legion has a stabler currency, and most likely lower taxes on the profligates that live in Legion territory.

The problem is that there's only one 'civilian' from legion territory in the entire game, and other references to what life's like under the legion are buried in expository dialogue trees. I can only assume that if they'd gone further east of the Colorado, the content out there would have more Dale Barton-types.

As for sympathizing with mass murderers and rapists, you kind of run into that problem with the Republic and House too.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

I don't really think you're supposed to sympathize with the legion, I think you're supposed to sympathize with people like Dale Barton, or to listen when people like Barton, Raul, and IIRC Cass tell you that Legion territory is generally safer and 'fairer' than Republican territory. What happened to Cass's Caravan, for instance, would probably never happen in Legion land. The legion has a stabler currency, and most likely lower taxes on the profligates that live in Legion territory.

The problem is that there's only one 'civilian' from legion territory in the entire game, and other references to what life's like under the legion are buried in expository dialogue trees. I can only assume that if they'd gone further east of the Colorado, the content out there would have more Dale Barton-types.

As for sympathizing with mass murderers and rapists, you kind of run into that problem with the Republic and House too.

But Legion territories are clearly *not* fair, in the same way brutal dictatorships aren't. Sure, there might be people that are fine as long as they're safe.

And I do think you're expected to sympathize with a faction and their cause.. the NCR troopers are depicted as a variety of more or less sympathetic individuals, with lives outside of the Mojave, dreams and objectives. The faction has its big problems and fucked up in the past, but they're clearly a much better bunch than the Legion.

Mr. House is a bit more in the grey area admittedly, and does some despicable stuff in the ending, but he's still only a laissez-faire autocrat, and nothing he does is remotely comparable to Caesar's cultural education for the tribes.

I mean, something that people overlook is that the tribals, by his own admissions, weren't like that before he started acting like a cult leader and indoctrinated them all. Take their issues with women for example: Sawyer argued on Formspring that Caesar isn't sexist but.. he's clearly okay with the Legion raping women left and right, since he never, like, go out and says "oh hey guys, that's kind of not nice".

Ultimately, though, I'm not sure if this kind of discussion will ever be productive at the end. Some people liked the Legion just fine (hoping for more content about them to end up in the game, which I think it's fair, since compared to the other factions it kind of got shafted) and some people like it less, with different shades in between. As I already said, I don't necessarily despise the faction in terms of lore, it's not the worst addition you could come up with, but it just didn't work in terms of a joinable faction (and the number of people that got their ending, judging by the achievements, kind of proves it).

 

[Tagaziel]

I wouldn't be so sure that the NCR overall is better than the Legion. They come into the Mojave, stomp on the locals, enact their own laws and regulations without giving local communities a say in the matter. Their ultimate goal is annexation of the Mojave, for Hoover Dam and Lake Mead water. The NCR doesn't give a damn about the locals. Natives don't have political rights, just like nobody living under the Legion.

In general, life east of the Colorado is good. I'll quote my Legion article on The Vault:

People living under the Legion are primarily inhabitants of non-tribal communities that existed before the rise of the Legion. In the east (former Arizona and other areas) the Legion enslaves tribes, rather than organized settlements with the Mojave and NCR regions as exception, since they are considered war zones.[6] People under legion control are considered subjects, not members of the Legion proper.

Lands under Caesar's protection enjoy stability and security far greater than lands outside its sphere of influence. Traders that have to cross NCR's territories with a guard contingent can safely travel on Legion trade routes alone, without fear of being raided.[9] People who live in Legion towns enjoy a stable, consistent flow of electricity and water, a steady and ample food supply, and very low crime and corruption levels. They enjoy safe and productive lives with one caveat: never disobey or disturb the Legion. Caesar's men only ask once and the order has to be carried out without question, even if it means resettling fifty miles away at a moment's notice. This generally means that Legion subjects have little, if any, political freedom, rights, or say in what happens to their communities.[6] However, if one keeps quiet, goes about their business and fulfills the rare request the Legion has, then Caesar is a peaceful and caring lord.[6][10] Many people don't consider this a problem, as even before Caesar's rise, they had little say in the chaotic wastes.[6]

A lot of gamers make the error of treating the Legion as the actual civilization east of the Colorado. This is a grave mistake, equal to treating the US Marines the actual US society.

Furthermore, Caesar isn't sexist. Sawyer points out that he's simply min-maxing his army: men fight and get killed, women help men fight and get killed (and make more people).

 

[Brother None]

A lot of gamers make the error of treating the Legion as the actual civilization east of the Colorado. This is a grave mistake, equal to treating the US Marines the actual US society.

Only it's not really an error.

We've seen NCR society. We can, in fact, see a lot of how it works in New Vegas. I don't care if the game "tells" about how nice life is back eastways, this is your prototypical "show, don't tell" showcase, it's not relevant. Other than a few drunkards mumbling that caravans are safer under Caesar's Legion, I don't recall a single redeeming feature for the faction. Because I'm stupid? No, because the devs did a piss-poor job writing and implementing the faction, pure and simple. If you have to dig and research and repeat over and over why the faction isn't so bad, then the developers failed. And because they failed so spectacularly, I think the Legion is pretty much dead before they've even started. They don't even work as an antagonist.

Furthermore, Caesar isn't sexist. Sawyer points out that he's simply min-maxing his army: men fight and get killed, women help men fight and get killed (and make more people).

Or, in other words, sexist.

 

[Ilosar]

I wouldn't be so sure that the NCR overall is better than the Legion. They come into the Mojave, stomp on the locals, enact their own laws and regulations without giving local communities a say in the matter. Their ultimate goal is annexation of the Mojave, for Hoover Dam and Lake Mead water. The NCR doesn't give a damn about the locals. Natives don't have political rights, just like nobody living under the Legion.

Which is why they built the sharecroper farms, the Lake Mead pipe that supplies much of New Vegas's water, brought along the Followers of the Apocalypse, established trade routes with a city that has little to offer but gambling and squatters, ect. of course, they also benefit from it, but it's not like the people of New Vegas can't. I mean, the King makes peole pay for the water that NCR brings to Freeside, and they pretty much overlook it. In fact, they only start gunning for the Kings if Pacer starts shooting first, and can end up being allies with them. While the Legion invariably massacres them.

I mean, of course NCR aren't saints, but there's a massive difference between high taxes (which also brings in services, such as protection and water) and being fucking enslaved by mass murderers and rapists. Because we can extrapolate all day long, what we actually see of the Legion is nothing but mass murderers and rapists, with an old man of a leader that uses dubious pseudo-philosophy to justify it all.

And personally, I loved the Legion at Nipton. A stark purity of justice. Sometimes, I think that such an approach is necessary.

OMG, this town has whores in it and the mayor is a jerk, let's go kill them all and pretend it's ''virtue'' and ''justice'' while the boys back at camp are busy raping slave girls.

Yeah, ''purity'' indeed. Why not also raze New Vegas then, because it fits Vulpes's ''town of whores'' declaration far, far more than Nipton.

Nipton was a daring raid, a fuck-you to the NCR, nothing else. As soon as you enter the Fort and see he actual Legion, their excuses don't hold anymore ground.

 

[Tagaziel]

I'm not denying that the Legion should've been more developed, I'm stating that treating the slave army as representative of the society it bases on is wrong.

JES admits that the decision to cut Legion settlements was bad. Everyone knows that. That's one of the reasons I'm digging for stuff, to have a clearer image of what it was intended to do. It's part of my roleplaying style: I'm basing decisions of my characters in game off of the complete image of the Legion, rather than just the fragments given in the game.

As for sexism, why is Caesar sexist? Given the high attrition levels in the Legion, it's simply more efficient to use the disposable gender for fighting and the non-disposable one for non-combat roles. If men could give birth to children, that would be a non-issue, but alas, we cannot.

Which is why they built the sharecroper farms,

Which serve the NCR.

the Lake Mead pipe that supplies much of New Vegas's water,

Which is sold for hard cash. The NCR has no interest in supporting communities in the Mojave for free (vide Westside).

brought along the Followers of the Apocalypse,

And cut them loose at the first possible opportunity.

established trade routes with a city that has little to offer but gambling and squatters,

Do your research. Trading outfits set up trade routes, not the Republic. Furthermore, the NCR only behaved peacefully due to the threat of the Legion, otherwise, they'd stomp Vegas into the ground and conquer it like the Legion (talk to House about it sometime).

ect. of course, they also benefit from it, but it's not like the people of New Vegas can't.

Westside, North Vegas, Vegas sewer dwellers, Freeside... Ton of people benefitting from NCR presence there!

I mean, the King makes peole pay for the water that NCR brings to Freeside, and they pretty much overlook it.

The pump was installed by a Freeside local, Bill Ronte, independent.

In fact, they only start gunning for the Kings if Pacer starts shooting first, and can end up being allies with them. While the Legion invariably massacres them.

I take it you haven't really spoken with Col. Moore on the Kings and seen her solution in action?

I mean, of course NCR aren't saints, but there's a massive difference between high taxes (which also brings in services, such as protection and water)

You mean like NCR protects Primm in case the Legion takes the dam?

Hint: They do not, even if McGee is installed as sheriff.

and being fucking enslaved by mass murderers and rapists.

You talk as if the NCR doesn't have slaves, mass murderers and rapists. What are NCR chain gangs, if not slave workers? And Moore's orders essentially using the Courier as a mobile death squad? You might be right on the rapist part, though. After all, it's easier to just use the services of women in Gomorrah, slaved to the Omertas with drugs and booze.

Because we can extrapolate all day long, what we actually see of the Legion is nothing but mass murderers and rapists, with an old man of a leader that uses dubious pseudo-philosophy to justify it all.

I see a highly dedicated, unified military force under a very intelligent leader. What we see of the Legion is its army. It's raw, it's terrible and it's pretty damn effective.

I am more of a House supporter, though. Man's got aces up his sleeve.

OMG, this town has whores in it and the mayor is a jerk, let's go kill them all and pretend it's ''virtue'' and ''justice'' while the boys back at camp are busy raping slave girls.

Yeah, ''purity'' indeed. Why not also raze New Vegas then, because it fits Vulpes's ''town of whores'' declaration far, far more than Nipton.

Nipton was a daring raid, a fuck-you to the NCR, nothing else. As soon as you enter the Fort and see he actual Legion, their excuses don't hold anymore ground.

Have you investigate Nipton deeper? "Town of whores" is a figurative statement. It's more than just the mayor being a jerk or Sylvia and Rose being prostitutes. The town organized a trap for the NCR troopers (who actively used its services), to sell them out to the powder gangers. It sheltered dangerously insane people (Harry Collins), people of disrepute (Tony the Tinker) and of course, Steyn himself. Traitors, sell outs... Prostitution is the least of Nipton's problems.

 

[Brother None]

I'm not denying that the Legion should've been more developed, I'm stating that treating the slave army as representative of the society it bases on is wrong.

You work with what you get, if you want to make stuff up to make a game better, the BGS forums are over there.

The Enclave was a lulzy sci fi base plus a bunch of military dudes running around in power armor in Fallout 2. Underneath it was an operational society. We never got to see it. We never really see how plausible or organized their long-term plans are. Everyone just dismisses the whole thing as a crazy loonybin, because that's what it is.

The Legion just hits that magical sweet spot of getting everything wrong. The Master was plausibly necessary (it wasn't guaranteed humanity would survive) and tragic. That made him a nice, grey villain. The Enclave were fucking loonies. That made them fun to shoot.

The Legion? They're no longer necessary, since there are simply better alternatives, from the NCR to various independent communities. They represent a solution to a problem that no longer exists. And then, to make things worse, notorious Umberto Eco-fanboy JE Sawyer decides the best way to get players on your side is by pseudo-intellectually ranting at them in barely lucid misinterpretations of already invalid philosophical doctrines. By all rights, Caesar should have been another President Richardson. He walks the walk, he talks the talk, the difference is we're supposed to take him and his faction seriously. Just hitting that exact wrong spot between the Unity and the Enclave: so stupid as to almost be a parody, yet it takes itself seriously.

And that's what we get from the game. I'll stick with what the game gives me. If I have to put in independent effort to make a videogame's story work, something is really wrong.

(man I really don't like the Legion. It's their pointlessness that really does them in for me. What are they an alternative to? Life doesn't look that hard, and it's even better in the NCR core lands. What is their purpose?!)

As for sexism, why is Caesar sexist?

?? He's restricting the life/career opportunities of women on the basis of nothing else than that they are women. That is the very definition of sexism. Just because it doesn't depend on stereotypes or prejudices doesn't mean it's not discrimination, brah.

 

[Walpknut]

But men in the Legion are also restricted to become Cannon Fodder for the rest of their life, they don't exactly choose to join the army, they are born into it.

 

[Tagaziel]

You work with what you get, if you want to make stuff up to make a game better, the BGS forums are over there.

Explain to me how investigating the project lead's posts for more material on the Legion is "making stuff up." I understand that you don't like the Legion, but your ad hominem is truly unwarranted.

The Enclave was a lulzy sci fi base plus a bunch of military dudes running around in power armor in Fallout 2. Underneath it was an operational society. We never got to see it. We never really see how plausible or organized their long-term plans are. Everyone just dismisses the whole thing as a crazy loonybin, because that's what it is.

The Legion just hits that magical sweet spot of getting everything wrong. The Master was plausibly necessary (it wasn't guaranteed humanity would survive) and tragic. That made him a nice, grey villain. The Enclave were fucking loonies. That made them fun to shoot.

Uh, that's self contradictive. We already see human civilization reemerging and developing in Fallout, with no immediate threat to their survival. How is the Master even remotely plausibly necessary? The thing that makes Richard Grey, well, grey, is not his plans (which call for the sterilization of all non-compliant normals for M'Atra's sake) or the means (unambiguously evil religious fanatics and mutants ahoy!), but the fact that he can be reasoned with. That he can be convinced of the error of his plans. Remove that and he's unambiguously evil proto-Richardson, seeking to force his evolutionary dead-end on all humans.

Actual supermutants are hardly helpful, being either morons or superintelligent men with a superiority complex. It wasn't until Fallout 2 that they were made more ambigous (<3 Marcus).

The Legion? They're no longer necessary, since there are simply better alternatives, from the NCR to various independent communities. They represent a solution to a problem that no longer exists. And then, to make things worse, notorious Umberto Eco-fanboy JE Sawyer decides the best way to get players on your side is by pseudo-intellectually ranting at them in barely lucid misinterpretations of already invalid philosophical doctrines. By all rights, Caesar should have been another President Richardson. He walks the walk, he talks the talk, the difference is we're supposed to take him and his faction seriously. Just hitting that exact wrong spot between the Unity and the Enclave: so stupid as to almost be a parody, yet it takes itself seriously.

Better alternatives? Short of House (a liberal dictator) I can't think of any that's significantly better. The NCR is a corrupt monolith that's slated for mass famine in a few decades and comes a-stompin', assimilating communities whether they like it or not, independent Vegas is hardly ideal as chaos still reigns in the Mojave...

The Legion has lands east of Arizona going for them, which are, as Raul, Dale Barton and even Cass state, peaceful, safe and prosperous. I do believe that the Legion should've been more richly detailed (as does JES), but I'm far from trashing it like you do.

And that's what we get from the game. I'll stick with what the game gives me. If I have to put in independent effort to make a videogame's story work, something is really wrong.

New Vegas' story *works.* Independent effort simply makes it a richer experience.

(man I really don't like the Legion. It's their pointlessness that really does them in for me. What are they an alternative to? Life doesn't look that hard, and it's even better in the NCR core lands. What is their purpose?!)

Talk to Raul, ask him about pre-Legion Arizona. Also, lol@ "life doesn't look that hard."

?? He's restricting the life/career opportunities of women on the basis of nothing else than that they are women. That is the very definition of sexism. Just because it doesn't depend on stereotypes or prejudices doesn't mean it's not discrimination, brah.

Uh, you're actually being sexist. You're singling out Caesar's supposed discrimination of women while completely ignoring how men are discriminated in the Legion. If you're a man and you can't fight after being conscripted, you're dead. If you're a woman, you have the obligation to bear children, sure, but you aren't running the risk of dying a variety of deaths, ranging from brutal to terrible, excruciating and brutal, with the only prospect being more combat until you die.

Ever wondered why there are no old legionaries? That's because everyone dies before they reach old age. By comparison, women are much better off in practical terms. They outlive legionaries.

 

[Ilosar]

First, + 1 to BN.

Which is sold for hard cash. The NCR has no interest in supporting communities in the Mojave for free (vide Westside).

Why should they? They aren't part of NCR. They don't pay NCR taxes. They don't really produce anything, many of them are squatters or do odd jobs for various factions. Why should NCR build, defend and maintain a water pipe, then give it away no strings attached?

And cut them loose at the first possible opportunity.

Be that as it may, apart from Independant it's the only ending in which they can remain in New Vegas. And in that scenario they are said to be overflowed with refugees. Again, I never said NCR was perfect, it's just better than the others.

Do your research. Trading outfits set up trade routes, not the Republic. Furthermore, the NCR only behaved peacefully due to the threat of the Legion, otherwise, they'd stomp Vegas into the ground and conquer it like the Legion (talk to House about it sometime).

Duh, of course House would say that, he wants you to support him. There is no such thing as ''stomping'' New Vegas in the NCR's ending should they beat the Legion. What you said is pure extrapolation.

Westside, North Vegas, Vegas sewer dwellers, Freeside... Ton of people benefitting from NCR presence there!

They get water, food and protection from the Fiends, that's already something no other faction can get them, including House. Westside is independant, but the rest of New vegas is more or less a shithole that tells NCR to sod off. Does it really surprises you that NCR says ''alright, keep wallowing in your own shit if you like it so much''?

The pump was installed by a Freeside local, Bill Ronte, independent.

... using water from the Lake Mead pipe.

I take it you haven't really spoken with Col. Moore on the Kings and seen her solution in action?

Moore's a jerk, yeah. But she's not in charge of what happens in New Vegas and has absolutely no bearing on wthe events there, so I don't know what your beef is. Crooker's the one that asks you to look into the Kings issue, and he wants peace.

You mean like NCR protects Primm in case the Legion takes the dam?

Hint: They do not, even if McGee is installed as sheriff.

Their army is in full retreat from the Mojave. The hell do you want them to do, make a last stand at some random town?

You talk as if the NCR doesn't have slaves, mass murderers and rapists. What are NCR chain gangs, if not slave workers? And Moore's orders essentially using the Courier as a mobile death squad? You might be right on the rapist part, though. After all, it's easier to just use the services of women in Gomorrah, slaved to the Omertas with drugs and booze.

Chain gangs are prisoners, criminals, while slaves in the Legion are anybody that cannot fight. Not the same thing at all, seriously.

The Courier is a mobile death squad because that's what the PC is. It's how you act for House, it's how you act for Ceasar, it,s how you can choose to act for yourself. And you can vey well send her to hell and make peace with all the factions she send you to kill if you want. Who cares about Moore, anyway? She's only one person. The NCR is much, much bigger than her.

Also, House is the one that uplifted the Omertas and made Gomorrah possible. He even made a treaty more or less forcing NCR to spend their caps in New Vegas if they didn't want a two-front war, and thus into the whores of that place. You seem to want to put the blame on NCR no matter what, but House is just as much a culprit here, if not more. he runs New Vegas, what happens there is more his fault than anyone else's.

I see a highly dedicated, unified military force under a very intelligent leader. What we see of the Legion is its army. It's raw, it's terrible and it's pretty damn effective.

Effective at what? killing people and enslaving them? Yeah that's just what the wasteland needs.

Before you go on about the NCR having problems in the Mojave, most of these are directly or indirectly caused by the Legion (Fiends, cut off supply roads, raided caravans), House (forced to spend manpower and caps in New Vegas) or the Divide being bombed to hell by the Courier. They are by no means perfect, but their situation is really shitty.

Have you investigate Nipton deeper? "Town of whores" is a figurative statement. It's more than just the mayor being a jerk or Sylvia and Rose being prostitutes. The town organized a trap for the NCR troopers (who actively used its services), to sell them out to the powder gangers. It sheltered dangerously insane people (Harry Collins), people of disrepute (Tony the Tinker) and of course, Steyn himself. Traitors, sell outs... Prostitution is the least of Nipton's problems.

New Vegas has slavers, cannibals, whores, mafiosi, murderers, rapists, psychos such as the Van Graffs, and I'm not even counting the Fiends yet. Yet it's somehow a glorious city fit to become Ceasar's Rome, while a few odd/crazy/greedy people in Nipton is reason enough to burn it to the ground after inflicting physical and moral torture on all it's inhabitants but one, chosen at random.

Please, just stop.

EDIT:

Ever wondered why there are no old legionaries? That's because everyone dies before they reach old age. By comparison, women are much better off in practical terms. They outlive legionaries.

There are also no old women, so that argument comes out of left field. All the women you see in the Fort are slaves, most with their les broken and forced to carry really heavy loads. Does that look like a good life for you?

Also, Cass doesn't really say that she would prefer being ruled by the Legion (being a woman, she certainly wouldn't). She just states caravans are safer there, because the Legion is present in force in Arizona. We have absolutely no clue how the other States under the Legion fare. And, it's said the Legion raids caravans that help NCR, so it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, innit?

 

[Guiltyofbeingtrite]

But men in the Legion are also restricted to become Cannon Fodder for the rest of their life, they don't exactly choose to join the army, they are born into it.

the sexism works both ways, the Legion is a heavily stratified society with the ONLY means of social mobility through the army, which is something only men can participate in.

 

[Brother None]

Explain to me how investigating the project lead's posts for more material on the Legion is "making stuff up."

Didn't say it was.

How is the Master even remotely plausibly necessary?

What, you didn't see it? I know it's easy to forget for those of us who played Fallout 2 as well, but Grey's whole point was that humanity's odds of ever reaching much more than subsistence level in the post-apocalypse were meager at best. None of Fallout's communities are particularly stable or wealthy, except the BoS, which is insular. Nothing in Fallout actually points to the Master being wrong, we only know he was with hindsight. The world changed and it's a valid question whether or not humanity has the capability to still thrive. We know they do, in this setting, but the Master's theory was they did not, and he wasn't even proven wrong in that, his solution was flawed instead.

Remove that and he's unambiguously evil proto-Richardson, seeking to force his evolutionary dead-end on all humans.

Only the fact that it's an evolutionary dead-end is inclusive in the fact that you can reason with him. That's kind of the point. If his solution was functional, it would have been a wholly different conversation. In fact, you can convince him to keep trying, because it's his solution that's flawed, not his core assumption. You're skipping a lot of steps here.

The NCR is a corrupt monolith that's slated for mass famine in a few decades and comes a-stompin', assimilating communities whether they like it or not, independent Vegas is hardly ideal as chaos still reigns in the Mojave...

No. The NCR is "said" to be a corrupt monolith slated for mass famine. What you *see* is a functioning military organization that invests heavily in the community and has significantly improved the Mojave in their short time there. What the game then TELLS us is that they're seriously corrupt (some corruption will always happen) and intolerant (compared to the Legion?) and collapsing (overstretch happens, but solutions will present itself, perhaps it'll split, big deal, still better than the Legion)

Chaos reigns in the Mojave? It reigns because the Legion is invading. The Legion is actually the cause of the problem you're proposing they're the solution to. That is absolutely pathetic storytelling. Really grinds my gears. It's just so lazy.

I do believe that the Legion should've been more richly detailed (as does JES), but I'm far from trashing it like you do.

Why? It failed in the game. So why not trash it?

New Vegas' story *works.*

Oh, it really, really doesn't. Even ignoring the plotholes it leaves gaping here and there, I wouldn't start praising NV for its main storyline.

Talk to Raul, ask him about pre-Legion Arizona. Also, lol@ "life doesn't look that hard."

Life isn't hard enough to warrant the solutions the Legion offers. The Legion's answers would have been appropriate around the time of Fallout 1. By the time of New Vegas, the NCR is so clearly superior, the writers can't really even construct a proper set of reasons to make them look mildly problematic.

You're singling out Caesar's supposed discrimination of women while completely ignoring how men are discriminated in the Legion.

Yeah, that's sexist too. Life's choices and career paths are being restricted or pre-determined based on gender. The definition of sexism. Not sure how you're not understanding this.

 

[Walpknut]

You can move from being cannon fodder, to cannon fodder with a bigger armor if you manage to survive being cannon fodder, and then you can hope to become cannon fodder that tends to die more often by being a frumentari who are expected to be suicidaly ready to accomplish their goal. All of this without any kind of medicine being permited as to weed out the weak ones.
That's hardly better than making food and having kids for the rest of your life. The only one that is not an slave in their army is Caesar himself.

 

[Tagaziel]

Why should they? They aren't part of NCR. They don't pay NCR taxes. They don't really produce anything, many of them are squatters or do odd jobs for various factions. Why should NCR build, defend and maintain a water pipe, then give it away no strings attached?

Have you actually visited Westside? You know, the community west of New Vegas that produces food and is generally self sufficient?

In general, you're trying to prove that the NCR is a good choice for the region. If so, why wouldn't they, in a simple gesture of good will, provide water to Westside and other communities? Even for a small fee. In turn, you actually support my point of NCR being corrupt, by underlining that if you're not turning a profit for the Republic, you're cut loose.

Be that as it may, apart from Independant it's the only ending in which they can remain in New Vegas. And in that scenario they are said to be overflowed with refugees. Again, I never said NCR was perfect, it's just better than the others.

Actually, if the Followers dare stay neutral, the NCR basically kicks them out of Vegas. Only if they support the NCR openly will they be allowed to remain.

Duh, of course House would say that, he wants you to support him. There is no such thing as ''stomping'' New Vegas in the NCR's ending should they beat the Legion. What you said is pure extrapolation.

Annexing New Vegas after assassinating its leader and without asking its citizens for permission is the very definition of stomping. The NCR is basically conquering New Vegas.

I'm also amused by your argument. “Duh.” What interest would House have in lying to his protege? He doesn't reveal his hand immediately, true, but out of all the faction leaders he is the only one who's 100% sincere with the Courier.

They get water, food and protection from the Fiends, that's already something no other faction can get them, including House. Westside is independant, but the rest of New vegas is more or less a shithole that tells NCR to sod off. Does it really surprises you that NCR says ''alright, keep wallowing in your own shit if you like it so much''?

“Protection from the Fiends?” Is that supposed to be an actual argument? Fiends protect nobody except themselves. As for the rest of Vegas, they tell NCR to fuck off because NCR invades their home and imposes its own taxes, giving nothing in return. The situation would be different if they could spare basic supplies or even simply given access to water.

... using water from the Lake Mead pipe.

Doesn't change the fact it wasn't installed by anyone in the NCR.

Moore's a jerk, yeah. But she's not in charge of what happens in New Vegas and has absolutely no bearing on wthe events there, so I don't know what your beef is. Crooker's the one that asks you to look into the Kings issue, and he wants peace.

Do your research. Moore is in charge of the military affairs around the Mojave in the absence of Oliver and she's everything that's wrong about the NCR distilled into one, terrible woman.

Problems with Kings? Send a death squad to gun them down. Brotherhood? Kill them. The Khans? Wipe them out. Get in the way of her vendetta and you're suddenly having difficulties.

Their army is in full retreat from the Mojave. The hell do you want them to do, make a last stand at some random town?

Do what any army would do for its constituents: instead of abandoning the city to Caesar, evacuate them. Do *something**. As it stands, you're supporting NCR incompetence and aggression as good things.

Chain gangs are prisoners, criminals, while slaves in the Legion are anybody that cannot fight. Not the same thing at all, seriously.

You apparently haven't played the game. The NCRCF was essentially a slave labour camp, thinly veiled as a “work release prison.” That was one of the reasons for rebellion.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean about the Legion. Subjects of the Legion aren't slaves. People who were enslaved for the purposes of serving the Legion are. Their status is identical to pre-rebellion NCRCF inmates (except for the fact that NCR inmates have better clothes, and that's about it).

The Courier is a mobile death squad because that's what the PC is. It's how you act for House, it's how you act for Ceasar, it,s how you can choose to act for yourself. And you can vey well send her to hell and make peace with all the factions she send you to kill if you want. Who cares about Moore, anyway? She's only one person. The NCR is much, much bigger than her.

She's the acting commander of the entire NCR military in the Mojave in Oliver's absence. Hardly “only one person” when that person is responsible for implementing a rather vicious military strategy. And if you support her, you're automatically supporting the worst, war mongering elements of the NCR public lie.

Also, House is the one that uplifted the Omertas and made Gomorrah possible. He even made a treaty more or less forcing NCR to spend their caps in New Vegas if they didn't want a two-front war, and thus into the whores of that place. You seem to want to put the blame on NCR no matter what, but House is just as much a culprit here, if not more. he runs New Vegas, what happens there is more his fault than anyone else's.

You're really grasping at straws here. House doesn't interfere with the Families, as per their employment contracts. Gomorrah Is free to organize their business without interference. The problem here is that NCR troopers generate demand for sexual services and troopers have no problems having sex with women that are thinly veiled slaves.

Effective at what? killing people and enslaving them? Yeah that's just what the wasteland needs.

Effective at conquering and holding vast territories, eradicating raiders and crime as well as securing trade routes to the point that one doesn't need an armed escort to travel. That's one of the points where the Legion is ludicrously effective.

Before you go on about the NCR having problems in the Mojave, most of these are directly or indirectly caused by the Legion (Fiends, cut off supply roads, raided caravans), House (forced to spend manpower and caps in New Vegas) or the Divide being bombed to hell by the Courier. They are by no means perfect, but their situation is really shitty.

Most of them are caused by incompetence of their officers, warmongering policies of the government and corruption. Supply lines are second to that.

New Vegas has slavers, cannibals, whores, mafiosi, murderers, rapists, psychos such as the Van Graffs, and I'm not even counting the Fiends yet. Yet it's somehow a glorious city fit to become Ceasar's Rome, while a few odd/crazy/greedy people in Nipton is reason enough to burn it to the ground after inflicting physical and moral torture on all it's inhabitants but one, chosen at random.

All these elements you mention are generally a marginal part of Vegas. Apart from Mortimer, the White Gloves all sworn off cannibalism. Chairmen are damn cool. Omertas are snakes, true, but that's about it for the Strip. I'm not really sure where you find grounds for comparing a den of scum and vilainy like Nipton to Vegas. I'm surprised you're bringing up Van Graffs or the Fiends, neither of which are a part of Vegas.

There are also no old women, so that argument comes out of left field. All the women you see in the Fort are slaves, most with their les broken and forced to carry really heavy loads. Does that look like a good life for you?

Sucks to be a slave in the army of the Legion, yes.

As for the broken legs, it's a hack to show struggle to carry heavy loads.

Also, Cass doesn't really say that she would prefer being ruled by the Legion (being a woman, she certainly wouldn't). She just states caravans are safer there, because the Legion is present in force in Arizona. We have absolutely no clue how the other States under the Legion fare. And, it's said the Legion raids caravans that help NCR, so it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, innit?

She states that caravans are safer, as well as that attacks like the ones that wiped out Cassidy Caravans wouldn't happen in Legion territory. We have clues. You're just ignoring them.

Didn't say it was.

Huh. Okay. I was miffed by your snide remark about BGS forums.

What, you didn't see it? I know it's easy to forget for those of us who played Fallout 2 as well, but Grey's whole point was that humanity's odds of ever reaching much more than subsistence level in the post-apocalypse were meager at best. None of Fallout's communities are particularly stable or wealthy, except the BoS, which is insular. Nothing in Fallout actually points to the Master being wrong, we only know he was with hindsight. The world changed and it's a valid question whether or not humanity has the capability to still thrive. We know they do, in this setting, but the Master's theory was they did not, and he wasn't even proven wrong in that, his solution was flawed instead.

I don't see it. With every replay I'm more convinced than ever that Grey was dead wrong, being shut off from the world for so long. By 2161 the Hub is a bustling, wealthy city, a literal hub of human civilization across the wastes. Junktown has power, shelter, food and water, enough to develop. Adytum is a community on the verge of independence. Only Shady Sands, Necropolis and non-Adytum Boneyard qualify as supporting the Master's vision. Everything else, well...

Only the fact that it's an evolutionary dead-end is inclusive in the fact that you can reason with him. That's kind of the point. If his solution was functional, it would have been a wholly different conversation. In fact, you can convince him to keep trying, because it's his solution that's flawed, not his core assumption. You're skipping a lot of steps here.

We'll be going in circles eventually, I think.

No. The NCR is "said" to be a corrupt monolith slated for mass famine. What you *see* is a functioning military organization that invests heavily in the community and has significantly improved the Mojave in their short time there. What the game then TELLS us is that they're seriously corrupt (some corruption will always happen) and intolerant (compared to the Legion?) and collapsing (overstretch happens, but solutions will present itself, perhaps it'll split, big deal, still better than the Legion)

How do you *show* a future mass famine? Hildern, one of the most intelligent men in the Mojave, predicts a famine. I'm inclined to believe him. As for the NCR investing in the community... Where does it do so? Apart from the caps flowing into New Vegas' Strip, that is. Communities that could be vital support are neglected because they don't provide an immediate profit (North Vegas and around). You have the NCRCF slave camp. You have an annexation of the Mojave, following a political assassination, without even asking the locals about it. A warmongering government. Strikes against mutants for the benefit of politicians in Boneyard jumping on the bigot bandwagon etc.

Chaos reigns in the Mojave? It reigns because the Legion is invading. The Legion is actually the cause of the problem you're proposing they're the solution to. That is absolutely pathetic storytelling. Really grinds my gears. It's just so lazy.

Chaos caused by the Legion is actually a small part. Much more is caused by NCR occupation or neglect.

Why? It failed in the game. So why not trash it?

Oh, it really, really doesn't. Even ignoring the plotholes it leaves gaping here and there, I wouldn't start praising NV for its main storyline.

Matter of taste. I find it working well.

Life isn't hard enough to warrant the solutions the Legion offers. The Legion's answers would have been appropriate around the time of Fallout 1. By the time of New Vegas, the NCR is so clearly superior, the writers can't really even construct a proper set of reasons to make them look mildly problematic.

A solution that gives a life of security, prosperity and general well being, at the cost of losing one's political rights and having to fulfil the occasional request without question sounds pretty good.

Yeah, that's sexist too. Life's choices and career paths are being restricted or pre-determined based on gender. The definition of sexism. Not sure how you're not understanding this.

Probably because it makes sense, rationally.

 

[Ilosar]

I won't accuse you of trolling, but I'm really wondering if you're serious now.

Have you actually visited Westside? You know, the community west of New Vegas that produces food and is generally self sufficient?

In general, you're trying to prove that the NCR is a good choice for the region. If so, why wouldn't they, in a simple gesture of good will, provide water to Westside and other communities? Even for a small fee. In turn, you actually support my point of NCR being corrupt, by underlining that if you're not turning a profit for the Republic, you're cut loose.

A gesture of goodwill? To people who sit on their collective asses and tell you to fuck off? House doesn't do it, the Legion sure as hell wouldn't do it, but it's bad bad bad if NCR doesn't do it? You have a strange set of morality. They built the pipeline, their engineers maintain it, their soldiers die defending it (as well as all of New Vegas), anyone that doesn't pay taxes coughs up caps for the water. It's not some grand machiavelian scheme, it's just common friggin sense.

Actually, if the Followers dare stay neutral, the NCR basically kicks them out of Vegas. Only if they support the NCR openly will they be allowed to remain.

And House kicks them out no matter what. Ceasar lets them live on nostalgia, while Lanius uses violence IIRC. Yet again, I'm not saying NCR is perfect, just that if you do good for them, they will do good for you.

Annexing New Vegas after assassinating its leader and without asking its citizens for permission is the very definition of stomping. The NCR is basically conquering New Vegas.

House planned to use his robot army to backstab NCR and take New Vegas for himself. You think he asked for it's resident's permission? He's not exactly a victim in this story. Every faction is a conqueror. Some are just smoother about it than others

What interest would House have in lying to his protege

What interest would a guy that's been manipulating things behind the scene for ages lie to you, random courier, at first? If you want answers about the Chip, he throws a hissy fit and dismisses your concerns. House is not evil, but he's certainly not a saint. It's perfectly understandable why he would lie to you in order to acheive his goals.

“Protection from the Fiends?” Is that supposed to be an actual argument? Fiends protect nobody except themselves.

Protection FROM the fiends. As in, NCR kills the Fiends and stops them from rampaging over to New Vegas proper.

As for the rest of Vegas, they tell NCR to fuck off because NCR invades their home and imposes its own taxes, giving nothing in return. The situation would be different if they could spare basic supplies or even simply given access to water.

So basically, they are evil because they don't just descend from the heaven to hand out vital supplies to people who sit on their collective asses and complain? What the hell. Doing nothing in return? They build a water pipe, rebuild Hoover Dam and give some power to Vegas, establish farms, help establish trade, bring along their doctors, oh and yeah, there's the little thing about holding off the army of mass murderers on the other side of the Colorado. NCR has done a hell of a lot for New Vegas, far more than House. Why should they be expected to do it for free, when no one else would? Why does it make them, in your words, a corrupt, inefficient invading army?

Doesn't change the fact it wasn't installed by anyone in the NCR.

But he could not have installed it without the pipe. Indirect consequences, but consequences still.

Do your research. Moore is in charge of the military affairs around the Mojave in the absence of Oliver and she's everything that's wrong about the NCR distilled into one, terrible woman.

Agreed, she's a bad apple.

Problems with Kings? Send a death squad to gun them down. Brotherhood? Kill them. The Khans? Wipe them out. Get in the way of her vendetta and you're suddenly having difficulties.

Death squad? The NCR soldiers were distributing food to NCR refugees, hell they offered to help the people of Freeside but Pacer intercepted the message. They had weapons of course, because it's goddamn Freeside.

The Brotherhood are a long-standing enemies of the NCR. She's suffered a lot because of them. It just so happens that the one person who would tell you to kill them all was her. It proves nothing about NCR as a whole.

The Khans are THE sworn enemy of NCR they have been attacking them since Shady Sands 150 years ago. It's kinda understandable why they are hated. Also, ''getting in the way of her vendetta'' earns you a scolding and a token rep loss. Not exactly excruciating difficulties.

Do what any army would do for its constituents: instead of abandoning the city to Caesar, evacuate them. Do *something**. As it stands, you're supporting NCR incompetence and aggression as good things.

Any army? History strongly dissagrees with you. Primm is a border town that's barely important. Evacuating civilians would presumably take too much time. I dunno. Again, the Republic is not perfect. You think the Legion would stop for some random town?

You apparently haven't played the game. The NCRCF was essentially a slave labour camp, thinly veiled as a “work release prison.” That was one of the reasons for rebellion.

Seems like stupidly giving them dynamite was a better reason for rebellion. And again, these are convicted criminals. Not random enslaved townsperson. They serve their time harshly, then get out.

Subjects of the Legion aren't slaves.

There are no ''subjects'', ''citizens'' or ''townpeople'' in the Legion. The Legion is the Legion. Sawyer has been very clear about that several times. I can,t seem to find the quote but you're either a working slave, a ''wife'' or a warrior. There's no in-between, apart from caravans bringing in vital supplies.

She's the acting commander of the entire NCR military in the Mojave in Oliver's absence. Hardly “only one person” when that person is responsible for implementing a rather vicious military strategy. And if you support her, you're automatically supporting the worst, war mongering elements of the NCR public lie.

I'm not supporting her? You basically have to put up with her angry antics. I would much, much rather Hsu be in charge, but the world is not perfect.

House doesn't interfere with the Families

Which is why he sends you to kill Benny when he suspects him of treason. Right, got it.

Gomorrah Is free to organize their business without interference. The problem here is that NCR troopers generate demand for sexual services and troopers have no problems having sex with women that are thinly veiled slaves.

House obviously doesn't have problems with it, then. Neither does the Legion, since they do worse to their women. Yeah, some troopers pays for sex. As do some locals, and some tourists. One of said locals also murders them and gets away with it because he can supply the Omertas with weaponry. Why are the NCR evil in this scenario? Again, they probably would not allow the Troopers there (or much less of them) if not for their agreement with, ta-da, House. So I think you are grasping at straws. There's no good guys here.

Effective at conquering and holding vast territories, eradicating raiders and crime as well as securing trade routes to the point that one doesn't need an armed escort to travel. That's one of the points where the Legion is ludicrously effective.

We have three NPCs telling us Legion territory is relatively safer. In your mind, that justifies mass murder, conquest, rampant sexism, indoctrination, slavery, and inhuman cruelty?

Holy shit.

Most of them are caused by incompetence of their officers, warmongering policies of the government and corruption. Supply lines are second to that.

Because the Legion does not suffer from incompetence? Yeah, they kill them, but it still happens. No corruption, which is why Silus defected? Supply lines aren't important when you're an expeditionary force in hostile terrotory in a desert? Supply lines are of primary importance. Why dyou think the Legion concentrates their operations in the south-east of the map?

All these elements you mention are generally a marginal part of Vegas

What?

Apart from Mortimer, the White Gloves all sworn off cannibalism

Blatantly false. You can see them dine over a human corpse in the primvate quarters before completing his quest. The fact they re-adopt it so quickly is also pretty damning evidence.

Chairmen are damn cool

They're groovy, baby. ''cool'' is for losers.

Omertas are snakes, true, but that's about it for the Strip

''Snakes'' is putting it midly. They shelter a murderer, maintain the biggest whorehouse this side of New Reno (you know, the whorehouse you say is worse than slavery) and plan to attack the Strip.

I'm not really sure where you find grounds for comparing a den of scum and vilainy like Nipton to Vegas

Nipton is small-time compared to Gommorah alone. We're not even counting the Atomic Wrangler, the Van Graffs, that other hotel which houses prostitutes which name I don't remember, and those two slaver guys in Westside, which ARE part of Vegas; the strip is just half of the city.

Sucks to be a slave in the army of the Legion, yes.

Not that much, you seem to think being an NCR citizen is worse.

As for the broken legs, it's a hack to show struggle to carry heavy loads.

Oh wel,, it's ok then. Let the females carry the loads while the male soldiers recite latin poetry at each other. True gentlemen.

She states that caravans are safer, as well as that attacks like the ones that wiped out Cassidy Caravans wouldn't happen in Legion territory. We have clues. You're just ignoring them.

Legion territory doesn't have the Van Graffs, true. I'm ignoing nothing, I'm telling you it's a small price, because Cass likely would not be able to even own a caravan in Legion territory, she would be a slave.

How do you *show* a future mass famine? Hildern, one of the most intelligent men in the Mojave, predicts a famine. I'm inclined to believe him

He's also shown to be kinda incompetent and unwilling to listen to reason. I would not put much stock in what he says.

Chaos caused by the Legion is actually a small part. Much more is caused by NCR occupation or neglect.

Back that affirmation up please.

A solution that gives a life of security, prosperity and general well being, at the cost of losing one's political rights and having to fulfil the occasional request without question sounds pretty good.

Bolded the funny part. Being a slave equals having to fulfill the occasional request? What tells you life in the Legion is so friggin wonderful, apart from off-handed comments that the roads are a bit safer?

 

[gumbarrel]

A solution that gives a life of security, prosperity and general well being

Until it inevitably turns in to the same mess that the NCR is.

Also, secure from what? Being oppressed, robed, and killed? The legion is already oppressive enough, you are robbed of all rights and potentially possetions, not to mention taxes. Also, how does being more or less a slave to the state = general well being? And how is this state going to prosper, exactly? Can people own property? Do they have any sort of economic freedom to invest their wealth in anything?