J.E. Sawyer on the Legion, money and miscellanea

Brother None said:
(man I really don't like the Legion. It's their pointlessness that really does them in for me. What are they an alternative to? Life doesn't look that hard, and it's even better in the NCR core lands. What is their purpose?!)

Didn't Caesar described the first tribes he conquered as disorganized, warring with each other for no real reason and basically wasting any potential they had or something like that? I can understand the Legion being an alternative to that.

Ilosar said:
Subjects of the Legion aren't slaves.

There are no ''subjects'', ''citizens'' or ''townpeople'' in the Legion. The Legion is the Legion. Sawyer has been very clear about that several times. I can,t seem to find the quote but you're either a working slave, a ''wife'' or a warrior. There's no in-between, apart from caravans bringing in vital supplies.

IN the Legion? No. In territories UNDER the Legion control? Yes.

"While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people.

The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).

In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway)."
 
Brother None said:
The Legion? They're no longer necessary, since there are simply better alternatives, from the NCR to various independent communities. They represent a solution to a problem that no longer exists. And then, to make things worse, notorious Umberto Eco-fanboy JE Sawyer decides the best way to get players on your side is by pseudo-intellectually ranting at them in barely lucid misinterpretations of already invalid philosophical doctrines. By all rights, Caesar should have been another President Richardson. He walks the walk, he talks the talk, the difference is we're supposed to take him and his faction seriously. Just hitting that exact wrong spot between the Unity and the Enclave: so stupid as to almost be a parody, yet it takes itself seriously.

I don't think they supposed to taken too seriously. They are joinable to because people often want to play the bad guy and Caesar's philosophical nonsense is there to give them more motivation and justification than pointlessly murdering people, but I don't think they were ever really supposed to be seen as a more reasonable option than NCR, House or Independence, if there is any moral dilemma about what is best for Mojave it is between those three, not the Legion.

I agree they are a solution to a problem that no longer exists in the Mojave, they were a solution to whatever was going on in Arizona and New Mexico, but that isn't relevant to where they are now, which why everyone feels very strongly about stopping them. Caesar is another President Richardson, this time you can just him if you want to from some reason.
 
Instead of quote pyramids, Ilosar, I'll answer with a more general reply.

First, let me quote the President of the New California Republic on what the Republic and its Army stand for.

There are some back home who ask me, "But who are we protecting? What is Nevada to us?" Sometimes we forget that the light of our society shines beyond our borders. Sometimes we take those privileges for granted that our forebears fought so hard to achieve. We must always remember that wherever Californians stand, we carry our principles with us: equal respect, representation, and protection under the laws of a just republic. This was the same fire that burned in the heart of the Old World that preceded us. We are the heirs of that civilization, torchbearers eastward of the Pacific, into the darkness of this wasted land.

This is what the Republic is supposed to do. They have taken upon themselves the burdon to protect the Mojave and beyond. Not select communities or people who meet specific criteria. The Mojave in general. As such, I'm holding them up accountable for what they did and what they did not do. The Republic aspires to greatness and such is the level I expect. But ad rem.

For instance, neglected communities of Westside, North Vegas, the entire outer Vegas area in general. Although the NCR preaches equality and protection under its law (and the occupied Mojave is under their law), they ignore communities that do not offer an instant return. The NCR isn't even making any token gestures of good will. As such, it comes as no surprise that the Republic is disliked by people of outer Vegas, people who have been ignored by the Republic and forced to fend on themselves, despite NCR's official mission in the Mojave.

The same is true for neutral factions in the Mojave. The Followers are only permitted to stay, if they actively support the NCR. If they stay neutral, they are forced out of Vegas, despite committed no actual crime against the Republic. The Great Khans, if allied with the NCR, are used as machete cannon fodder by Colonel Moore during the battle and later smothered in reservations. And that's after they were brutalized at Bitter Springs and Red Rock Canyon.

And, of course, Robert House. The saviour of the Mojave, who single handedly defended it from nuclear annihilation. The man who rebuilt New Vegas in under a decade, leader of an independent city. And thus, a thorn in NCR's plans. The NCR plans to annex New Vegas and the Mojave into the Republic, but rather than offering the people of the land a choice, including Mr House, the plan of the head commander of NCR military in the absence of General Oliver is to quietly assassinate him, removing the only real obstacle on the way to seizing the Mojave. This move is corrupt no matter how one twists words and facts. It's as corrupt as the one who contracts the Courier for this: Cassandra Moore.

(Side note: House is the only faction leader who is perfectly honest and sincere with the Courier as he quickly becomes his most trusted aide. Although he withholds confidential information at first, as he is unsure of the Courier's loyalty, he becomes quite forthcoming with it later and never lies.)

Ah, Colonel Moore. All the things bad about the Republic in 2281, distilled into one loathsome person. Moore is one of the current administrations warhawks, along with General Oliver and President Kimball, bent on continuing the campaign of expansion no matter the cost. She also has carte blanche to deal with threats in the Mojave as he sees fit, typically with violence. As pointed out, her preferred way to deal with the Kings is to send a death squad to their headquarters, with orders to shoot to kill. The same goes for the Khans, the Brotherhood and every other threat. People who interfere with her vendetta tend to run into problems (such as Ambassador Crocker losing his position, if the problem with the Kings is solved peacefully). And the best part? She does it will full blessing of the top brass, with more moderate officers, like Col. James Hsu, relegated to camp duty for not supporting the party line.

There are also other problematic policies of the NCR. One of them is the infamous NCRCF. Essentially a forced labor camp, the only difference between the Legion's slave laborers and NCR convicts is that the latter have better clothes and access to dynamite. Another, related one, is inaction. When Primm was taken over by escaped convicts, the NCR outpost on the other side was ordered to secure the perimeter and not interfere, as Primm wasn't considered NCR territory (despite the obligation NCR accepted upon its shoulders). And even if the crisis is resolved and an NCR rep is installed as sheriff, the town is abandoned to the wolves as soon as the army starts to withdraw from the Mojave. Again, contradicting their mission.

I'm not saying that there aren't good people in the Republic. There are plenty of them, but they are mostly down the food chain or in isolated position with no actual power. The policy makers are a corrupt lot, insisting on building the Republic's power with violence, ignoring the values it is supposed to stand for. Calling the likes of Cassandra Moore or Lee Oliver “bad apples” is candidate for understatement of the year. These two top military commanders are responsible for acts of gross incompetence or outright war crimes, something which should be self-evident by now.

Of course, someone's going to use the tired old “but the Legion is even worse” fallacy. Maybe it is. This is irrelevant to assessing the Republic and its policies in practice: imperialism, warmongering, massive loss of life due to them. But no, the Legion is worse, so it automatically makes everything the Republic does acceptable.

The Legion is an interesting subject, as it is confused with the society that it protects. The army is composed of reconditioned tribals and slaves supporting legionaries in combat, but behind them is a vast number of people living under their protection in lands east of the Colorado. People who have ready access to food, water, electricity and shelter. They may be subjects, rather than citizens, but their land is safe and rich. There'd be no problem with Fiends, Powder Gangers or remnants of tribes brutalized by the NCR, as they'd have been wiped out by the Legion before they'd become a nuisance.

(On gender segregation in the Legion: Caesar maximizes effectiveness of his army, using both genders as parts of a machine. Saying that women have a poor life because they have to bear children, cook food and do typical support stuff, while ignoring the fact that men are no better off because they look forward to a life of combat with the inevitable brutal death at the end is manipulation. )

The Legion isn't much worse than the NCR. It is unforgiving and demanding, true, but it offers peace and stability. Something the Republic is having trouble with, particularly with its leadership being what it is.

Now, junkpile:

*The White Gloves aren't dining on a human corpse. Check the GECK.
*One Legion defector does not a rule make
*NCR soldiers that make use of Gomorrah's services are responsible for their own actions and directly supporting sex slavery; no amount of word twisting will change that
* Nipton was entirely corrupt, whereas Vegas has a great deal of redeeming features: the Wrangler twins are interested in sustainable business, open to cooperation with the Followers, while Van Graffs are a completely foreign operation. Not to mention that slavers in Westside operate in secret, as they wouldn't be tolerated by anyone.
* Hildern is brilliant. Stubborn and single minded, but brilliant nonetheless.
 
First, you're taking one sentence of a speech given to NCR soldiers away from home by a known hawkish president as irrefutable evidence that NCR should always behave like that, towards everyone, all the time, else it's corrupt and wrong. I could very well do the same thing for House (sending us to other planets? his ''watch outside the window'' fallacy? House says a lot of loonish stuff, and taking him to the letter is also a bad idea).

Now, onto your argument. I understand the gist of it, but I think you havea huge tunnel vision. You seemto care about words. I care about actions, what we actually see in-game.

What did House do for New Vegas, for the people of the Mojave? First, anyone outside New Vegas he obviously doesn't care about, beyond having Victor spy on Goodsprings, and presumably a fewother such Securitron to keep watch on key areas. In New Vegas proper, what did he do? He uplifted a few tribals into loonish bunches and made them build casinos. Woopie fucking doo. As far we know, as far as we see, that's literally the only thing he did. He did nothing for Freeside, nothing for North Vegas, nothing for Westside, didn't touch the Dam, didn't supply water via Lake Mead, didn't grow farms, nothing. In 10 years. Or so little it's barely noticeable.

You say NCR doesn't do anything for New Vegas? Well, apart from keeping the Strip alive with their money, they also

1) built the sharecropper farms which supply the region
2) built, maintain and defend the Lake Mead pipe, as well as say nothing when locals use their water to establish their own pipes
3) Defend the locals from the Legion and the Fiends. With uncertain effeciveness, of course, but they still do. Without them, the Legion quickly overwhelms New Vegas and enslaves ''much'' off its population (epilogue's words, not mine). I'd say that for them it's a wee bit worse being enslaved than paying taxes.
4) brought along the Followers. Yes, relations are tenuous because they don't want a neutral party bandaging everybody on the battlefield including their enemies, but no NCR presence = no Followers, theycome from there.
5) Established a trade route between New Vegas and the core NCR regions. Yes, it benefits them too of course, because that's how trade works, it's not a selfless act
6) Actually wanted to hand out food to the people of Freeside, but again Pacer made sure it didn't happen

In the face of these in-game facts, can you really, truly say that NCR brought nothing to New Vegas? Not even token aid? Come on, they brought food, water, protection, medication, trade, everything a settlement needs, hell they even wanted to give away their own food. That's way, way more than House ever did for anyone outside of the Strip.

Is there an interest behind it all, of course there is, they are a Republic, not selfless angels descending from the heavens to offer free food and health care. One line from a political speech geared towards an already conquered audience proves nothing and certainly doesn't tie up the NCR to do things way outside their interests.

You think House has no interests behind what he does? He wants to rule, everything he does and did has this goal in mind. You paint him as some sort of messiah, but there's a good reason he protected the Mojave; he was in it! He would have died if not for his laser defenses! It's not like the people who live now, 200years later, should just bow down to him because of that.

As for Moore, jesus you really hate her. Of course she removes obstacles to NCR interests, it's her goddamn job. You don't even have to listen to her, even. Hell, House does it too; he demands you murder the Brotherhood, even if they aren't even aware of his existence. He demands you dispose of Benny. The Legionis even more violent that NCR in this regard, but they apparently get a free morality pass because ''it's necessary'' or something.

What's the fixation with NCRCF? It's a prisoner camp. The people in there are convicted criminals, and nothing indicates they are political ones either. Once free, their leader immediately goes to Vault 19 in order to find explosives, hardly the reaction of an ordinary prisoner. They put them to use because someone figures they're better off building a railway than rotting away in prison. How you equate that to institutionalized slavery is simply beyond me.

The Legion is an interesting subject, as it is confused with the society that it protects. The army is composed of reconditioned tribals and slaves supporting legionaries in combat, but behind them is a vast number of people living under their protection in lands east of the Colorado. People who have ready access to food, water, electricity and shelter. They may be subjects, rather than citizens, but their land is safe and rich. There'd be no problem with Fiends, Powder Gangers or remnants of tribes brutalized by the NCR, as they'd have been wiped out by the Legion before they'd become a nuisance.

And where is that shown in-game?

Nowhere. I strongly doubt they even have access to electricity, given that Ceasar is terrified of his men simply seeing the interior of House's bunker.

This description is completely at odds with everything we see of the Legion in-game. Even Sawyer seems to be ccontradicting himself, as he once described the Legion as ''basically a roving army''. Yeah, a ''roving army'' cannot be expected to keep the peace in 3-4 States and provide such an idyllic lifeffor all it's citizens. It's utterly illogical.

And again, nothing of the sort is ever hinted in-game. There's not even one line describing civilian life in the Legion, simply some throwaway lines that caravans are safe. Then we are supposed to believe all is sunshine and rainbows in LegionLand while everything we see in-game is murderous slavers and rapists. It's utterly piss-poor storytelling, that's what it is, and that's what the disccussion is all about.

On gender segregation in the Legion: Caesar maximizes effectiveness of his army, using both genders as parts of a machine. Saying that women have a poor life because they have to bear children, cook food and do typical support stuff, while ignoring the fact that men are no better off because they look forward to a life of combat with the inevitable brutal death at the end is manipulation.

And you're accusing me and BN of twisting words? ''gender segregation'' is another word for sexism. When you're in a warrior-led society and only the men are allowed to be warriors, the women are considered inferiors. Sorry, there's simply no way around it. The females take care of mundane tasks and labour, while men leadthe society and seek glory on the battlefields. Like in ancient Sparta. It might have been good for its era, but when the opposite is for all intents and purposes an egalitarian society, it's simply completely unneccesary.

(Also, I showed that text to a kinda feminist friend of mine and she wants to kill you right now)

The Legion isn't much worse than the NCR. It is unforgiving and demanding, true, but it offers peace and stability. Something the Republic is having trouble with, particularly with its leadership being what it is.

They're waging a war against the Brotherhood, the Khans, the Powder Gangers, the Fiends and the Legion all at the same time, they have House and his cronies breathing down their neck, they have tenuous supply lines in a desert faraway from home, and you're somehow surprised the NCR can't possibly offer the Mojave perfect peace and stability?

Methinks you ask way too much out of them becauseof a single sentence of a stupid speech.
 
Great debate guys. I tend to agree with Tagaziel, but Illosar brings up valid points too. I think the NCR is just as dangerous as the Legion personally - They did murder a bunch of defenseless woman and children at Broken Springs. Not to mention that they march into the Mojave like conquerors with grand aspirations of liberating the poor citizens of New Vegas. Funny thing is most people don't want them there at all. NCR preaches the security of their citizens, but doesn't give a damn about those living in the Mojave - How hypocritical is that? Sure the NCR may not support slavery outright, but they do impose taxes and laws that take away the freedom of the citizens that live in Vegas. They also murder anyone who doesn't side with them. They do supply water and protection to the areas, but the Followers would do that without ulterior motives. People defending NCR's decision to abandon Primm, even after they pledge to protect it, is pretty lame-o. Maybe if NCR citizens lived there they would have cared more, but as it was they retreated and left Primm to fend for itself. It really feels like choosing the lesser of two evils when picking between NCR and Legion - Both have their good sides, but NCR's is easier to see. You have to dig a little deeper for the Legion information, but that is primarily due to rushed development. What a shocker.


The Legion isn't much better though. Nipton was a pretty corrupt town, but the Legion had no right to crucify all the citizens that lived there. Slavery is wrong no matter how you put it. I might add that if you play as a female and join the Legion, things work out ok, so they might be open to change in the future. The Legion condones sex slaves while the NCR uses woman that other factions provide. Neither is right really. I'm not sure they have electricity in Colorado either. They don't use Autodocs, so why would they use generators? I'm unsure on this since I haven't played NV in a few weeks. The Legion seems destined to fail, since they don't educate their troops, don't allow simple things like booze and stimpacks, and they treat their woman like cattle. I wonder how they will fair after Caesar is gone?


That is why I chose to side with House, or went Independent, due to ulterior motives in all the factions conflicting with my view of what Vegas should be like. Why should the NCR have control of the strip? So they can continue to march across the US, invading territories as they see fit, and subjugating the citizens that live there? Doesn't sound much better than the Legion really.

Just my two cents. (probably worth less)


Edit: Tagaziel, I do think you are wrong about the treatment of the woman in the Legion. It's hard to justify that one dude. They treat woman like shit. Period.

Illosar, the NCR wouldn't be fighting several wars if they stayed in California. Maybe they shouldn't stretch their army so thin if they want to be protectors of the wasteland. Besides the Fiends and Powder Gangers are weak sauce. A couple of hollow-points usually does the trick. :smile:
 
All Roads Lead To Rome

All Roads Lead To Rome


Western civ' romantic-sizes the past, the present, and ultimately, the future.
Many 'Garden Of Eden' metaphors are conscripted to stomp out a mesmerizing narrative.
One natural golden age for the fallen / Fallout United States Of America would be a confused puree of the Roman republic and empire.
All those court house neoclassical architecture veneers and school dazed Latin declensions stack the deck to favor " ' the grandeur that was Rome ' ".



Consider this duce who would command the brahmin 'to run on time'.
Benito-Mussolini-007.jpg


500x_chemussolini.jpg

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2010/08/chemussolini.jpg
Mussolini-the-original-Che-300x225.jpg

http://according2g.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Mussolini-the-original-Che.jpg
The battle of the Brands!


If the end justifies the means, then 'all roads lead to Rome'.





4too
 
Tagaziel said:
Have you actually visited Westside? You know, the community west of New Vegas that produces food and is generally self sufficient?
I don't think thats the core of BNs point. Thing is that the Legion makes in the game no sense as the NCR is the better alternative if you have to chose between those two factions just by what the game shows you. Simply because the NCR has already done much more in the short time they are around compared to the Legion.

Man Tagz ... BN explains it so nicely, how can you not agree with him, I get almost a boner from how well he explains the flaws with the Legion :(

*Also, please you have a woman. Show here what you wrote about the Legion and Sexism.

On gender segregation in the Legion: Caesar maximizes effectiveness of his army, using both genders as parts of a machine. Saying that women have a poor life because they have to bear children, cook food and do typical support stuff, while ignoring the fact that men are no better off because they look forward to a life of combat with the inevitable brutal death at the end is manipulation.

Ask her about her opinion. But ... don't complain to us if it ends in a divorce though :p. Or no Sex for a couple of months ...

But just to say that. History has proven that females make very great fighters. And I am not only talking here about the Soviets and the second World War. You could also take Israel as example where the females do the same duty. What Ceasar Salad does, is actually taking away potential. It makes no sense in such a setting (we are not talking about the real romans here) to remove females from the battlefield as fighters.
 
History has proven that females make very great fighters

Not great front line melee fighters, like the vast majority of Legion troops.

And even the Soviet army used them mostly as snipers and on planes and tanks. Don't know what Israel is doing.

It makes no sense in such a setting (we are not talking about the real romans here) to remove females from the battlefield as fighters.

Reality is Unrealistic all over this. It makes as much sense as in any other real life setting, where women were forbidden from serving in the army. And by sense, I don't mean "It makes sense not to have women fight", I mean "It makes sense that people like that would not let women fight."
 
Ilosar said:
First, you're taking one sentence of a speech given to NCR soldiers away from home by a known hawkish president as irrefutable evidence that NCR should always behave like that, towards everyone, all the time, else it's corrupt and wrong. I could very well do the same thing for House (sending us to other planets? his ''watch outside the window'' fallacy? House says a lot of loonish stuff, and taking him to the letter is also a bad idea).

I'm quoting a speech made by the leader of the Republic, the commander-in-chief of its military forces and the head architect of the entire Mojave campaign. It's a quote that summarizes the objectives of the Mojave campaign the Republic outlined for itself.

What did House do for New Vegas, for the people of the Mojave?

Save them from nuclear annihilation in 2077? Without House there'd be no Mojave, just a lifeless piece of desert with a few concrete ruins jutting out of the sand here and there.

First, anyone outside New Vegas he obviously doesn't care about, beyond having Victor spy on Goodsprings, and presumably a fewother such Securitron to keep watch on key areas. In New Vegas proper, what did he do? He uplifted a few tribals into loonish bunches and made them build casinos. Woopie fucking doo. As far we know, as far as we see, that's literally the only thing he did. He did nothing for Freeside, nothing for North Vegas, nothing for Westside, didn't touch the Dam, didn't supply water via Lake Mead, didn't grow farms, nothing. In 10 years. Or so little it's barely noticeable.

A decade is a very short time. House organized Vegas into a city, uniting tribes that willed to cooperate and removing/exterminating those that did not. Putting Slither Kin (Omertas), the Boot Riders and pre-White Glove cannibals in line is a pretty big feat.

You do realize that House didn't have the necessary resources to establish a full restoration effort, right? If he did have the Mark II OS from the start, the south west would be a very different place. Taking that into account, what he did is quite impressive.

You say NCR doesn't do anything for New Vegas? Well, apart from keeping the Strip alive with their money, they also

1) built the sharecropper farms which supply the region

You mean the farms that are failing and whose farmers are about to pack up and leave?

2) built, maintain and defend the Lake Mead pipe, as well as say nothing when locals use their water to establish their own pipes

You mean how they shut down the Westside connection if they discover it?

3) Defend the locals from the Legion and the Fiends. With uncertain effeciveness, of course, but they still do. Without them, the Legion quickly overwhelms New Vegas and enslaves ''much'' off its population (epilogue's words, not mine). I'd say that for them it's a wee bit worse being enslaved than paying taxes.

One is enslavement, the other is taxation without representation and any say in the matter. Both the Legion and the NCR screw the Mojavians over.


4) brought along the Followers. Yes, relations are tenuous because they don't want a neutral party bandaging everybody on the battlefield including their enemies, but no NCR presence = no Followers, theycome from there.

I'd like you to provide a source for the “no NCR, no Followers” claim.

5) Established a trade route between New Vegas and the core NCR regions. Yes, it benefits them too of course, because that's how trade works, it's not a selfless act

Again, it was the merchants houses that established the trade routes, not the NCR. They would've been established regardless of the Republic's intervention.

6) Actually wanted to hand out food to the people of Freeside, but again Pacer made sure it didn't happen

So instead of investigating the matter, they cut the entire project. Great dedication.

In the face of these in-game facts, can you really, truly say that NCR brought nothing to New Vegas? Not even token aid? Come on, they brought food, water, protection, medication, trade, everything a settlement needs, hell they even wanted to give away their own food. That's way, way more than House ever did for anyone outside of the Strip.

The Mojavians already had their sources of food, water, protection and trade. The NCR might've provided the jolt necessary for the Strip to be born, but they also brought with them war, taxes, plans to annex the entire Mojave in violation of their own principles and economic wars spilling over from the NCR.

Is there an interest behind it all, of course there is, they are a Republic, not selfless angels descending from the heavens to offer free food and health care. One line from a political speech geared towards an already conquered audience proves nothing and certainly doesn't tie up the NCR to do things way outside their interests.

It's a mission statement made by the President of the Republic. That's like saying the State of the Union address is irrelevant.

You think House has no interests behind what he does? He wants to rule, everything he does and did has this goal in mind. You paint him as some sort of messiah, but there's a good reason he protected the Mojave; he was in it! He would have died if not for his laser defenses! It's not like the people who live now, 200years later, should just bow down to him because of that.

Again you confuse cause and consequence. House was in Vegas because he planned to save it and then use the city and the Mojave to kickstart civilization after the nuclear holocaust. The very fact that people in the Mojave live is entirely thanks to his efforts.

As for Moore, jesus you really hate her. Of course she removes obstacles to NCR interests, it's her goddamn job. You don't even have to listen to her, even. Hell, House does it too; he demands you murder the Brotherhood, even if they aren't even aware of his existence. He demands you dispose of Benny. The Legionis even more violent that NCR in this regard, but they apparently get a free morality pass because ''it's necessary'' or something.

Moore is one of the key implementators of the Republic's aggressive policy. Supporting the NCR inevitably leads to fulfilling her orders and supporting the imperialist policy of the government she represents. I'm holding her responsible for the wrongdoing in the Mojave in proportion to her position.

What's the fixation with NCRCF? It's a prisoner camp. The people in there are convicted criminals, and nothing indicates they are political ones either. Once free, their leader immediately goes to Vault 19 in order to find explosives, hardly the reaction of an ordinary prisoner. They put them to use because someone figures they're better off building a railway than rotting away in prison. How you equate that to institutionalized slavery is simply beyond me.

Because it is? Tell me, do you consider Soviet gulags adequate punishment for convicted criminals? They held non-political prisoners too, who were similarly forced to physical labour.

Their "republic" is a joke. They're a bunch of tyrants led by an even greater tyrant, that idiot Kimball. They think they have the right to annex every inch of dirt in the West and force their system on every man, woman, and child.

Cooke elegantly sums up what's wrong with the Republic, by the way. Same as Caesar, former NCR citizen.

Greed runs rampant. The government is corrupt, accepting bribes from Brahmin barons and landowners, to the detriment of citizens. The NCR is a loose conglomerate of individuals looking out for themselves. It's lost virtue. No one cares about the collective, the greater good.

And where is that shown in-game?

It's called listening to what people tell you.

Nowhere. I strongly doubt they even have access to electricity, given that Ceasar is terrified of his men simply seeing the interior of House's bunker.

Again, that's only Caesar concerned about his soldiers, not the civilization they protect.

This description is completely at odds with everything we see of the Legion in-game. Even Sawyer seems to be ccontradicting himself, as he once described the Legion as ''basically a roving army''. Yeah, a ''roving army'' cannot be expected to keep the peace in 3-4 States and provide such an idyllic lifeffor all it's citizens. It's utterly illogical.

It's quite logical. The bulk of the Legion is occupied with campaigns, focusing maximum strength on one campaign at a time, while smaller units maintain the peace. Read the Gallic War Commentaries by Caesar to get a feel for the Legion's operations.

And again, nothing of the sort is ever hinted in-game. There's not even one line describing civilian life in the Legion, simply some throwaway lines that caravans are safe. Then we are supposed to believe all is sunshine and rainbows in LegionLand while everything we see in-game is murderous slavers and rapists. It's utterly piss-poor storytelling, that's what it is, and that's what the disccussion is all about.

You, on the other hand, seem convinced that NCR is all sunshine and rainbows, because the Legion is even worse.

And you're accusing me and BN of twisting words? ''gender segregation'' is another word for sexism. When you're in a warrior-led society and only the men are allowed to be warriors, the women are considered inferiors. Sorry, there's simply no way around it. The females take care of mundane tasks and labour, while men leadthe society and seek glory on the battlefields. Like in ancient Sparta. It might have been good for its era, but when the opposite is for all intents and purposes an egalitarian society, it's simply completely unneccesary.

I find it amusing that you're convinced a life of constant warfare as a slave warrior with the inevitable gory death at a relatively young age is somehow glorious, while mundane tasks like caring for food, medicine and bearing children are inglorious.

And, again, the Legion is not the civilization it represents. It's its military arm. Every member of the Legion, from the legionaries dying horribly on the frontlines to the women who take care of medicine, food and children, are tools in Caesar's hands.

(Also, I showed that text to a kinda feminist friend of mine and she wants to kill you right now)

Cute.

The Legion isn't much worse than the NCR. It is unforgiving and demanding, true, but it offers peace and stability. Something the Republic is having trouble with, particularly with its leadership being what it is.

They're waging a war against the Brotherhood, the Khans, the Powder Gangers, the Fiends and the Legion all at the same time, they have House and his cronies breathing down their neck, they have tenuous supply lines in a desert faraway from home, and you're somehow surprised the NCR can't possibly offer the Mojave perfect peace and stability?

Most of these problems are a result of their own actions. So, yeah.

Crni Vuk said:
I don't think thats the core of BNs point. Thing is that the Legion makes in the game no sense as the NCR is the better alternative if you have to chose between those two factions just by what the game shows you. Simply because the NCR has already done much more in the short time they are around compared to the Legion.

Man Tagz ... BN explains it so nicely, how can you not agree with him, I get almost a boner from how well he explains the flaws with the Legion :(

It's called “own opinion” and “agree to disagree.”

*Also, please you have a woman. Show here what you wrote about the Legion and Sexism.

Ask her about her opinion. But ... don't complain to us if it ends in a divorce though :p. Or no Sex for a couple of months ...

Maria understands how such an army functions, though she doesn't find it really attractive. Neither does she find the gender segregation problematic, since you're fucked no matter the genitals you carry.

But just to say that. History has proven that females make very great fighters. And I am not only talking here about the Soviets and the second World War. You could also take Israel as example where the females do the same duty. What Ceasar Salad does, is actually taking away potential. It makes no sense in such a setting (we are not talking about the real romans here) to remove females from the battlefield as fighters.

Uh, he isn't taking away potential? For every woman that doesn't fight for the Legion on the frontlines there is a legionary who does. I'm not stating that women can't fight, only that it's rational that the only people able to actually make more legionaries are kept safe.

Furthermore, women aren't carbon copies of men where it comes to combat. They have different talents, different skills and don't fit Legion's tactics as well as men do (rushing enemies with a horde of giant muscular men).
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
Didn't Caesar described the first tribes he conquered as disorganized, warring with each other for no real reason and basically wasting any potential they had or something like that? I can understand the Legion being an alternative to that.

Sure. Again, this is where the game suffers from show-don't-tell. The only practical implementation we see is the White Legs deciding to exterminate another tribe with Ceasar's encouragements. Sure, tribal society isn't all it's cracked up to be, but HH isn't a shining example of a civilizing mission.

Even accepting Caesar was the best they could do back in Arizona and a necessary evil, which I can accept, it's fine, then he still has no business in the Mojave. He is simply outmatched in quality of life and loftiness of goals offered by both NCR and House. I can see reasonably picking between those two, but there's no reason to pick Caesar unless you're playing evil.

Tagz said:
You, on the other hand, seem convinced that NCR is all sunshine and rainbows, because the Legion is even worse.

Isn't that the point? It's not that the NCR does nothing bad or wrong, clearly they do. But you're conflating the notion that they're flawed with the notion that this puts them on equal footing with the Legion.

The problem is not that any disagrees with you that the NCR is flawed. We can see that it is. The problem is your preposterous viewpoint that "The Legion isn't much worse than the NCR" (which you now contradict yourself here). You are equating a faction that slaughtered and burned a town for no good reason, a slave-driving army of rapists, you are equating them with a shoddily-run republic that at the very least does more good than it does harm. The best criticisms we have is "it's kind of corrupt" and "lost sight of its values"'. Your arguments all hinge on holding the NCR to higher standards than the Legion because they have loftier stated goals, and then somehow when they fall short of said goals but still easily outperform the Legion, that makes them equals in your eyes?
The NCR's methods are supporting their allies over neutrals and not giving them any choice in being claimed as NCR lands, and you're trying to compare that to a faction that will burn and rape its way through the Mojave? You're complaining about NCR's durability and stability when everyone agrees the Legion as a unified body will not survive the lifespan of a man with a brain tumor? On the basis of *that* you are not "so sure that the NCR overall is better than the Legion". Really?

And again, without the Legion being there, what is the major threat to the NCR's peace and stability? What threat or faction in the Mojave are they not equipped to deal with (other than the Courier activating the robot army)? In the various ending slides, they make a truce with the BoS, deal with the Fiends with heavy losses or not, and deal with the Great Khans and Powder Gangers. Nowhere does it say they fail to establish control, or that any of those factions remain a threat to people in the Mojave. According to your logic, they should, but they don't.

That means the alternatives aren't chaos under the NCR or peace under the Legion, as you posit. The alternatives are peace under the NCR or peace under the Legion. And framed like that, the Legion simply is not a reasonable alternative to the NCR, or even House.

I get wanting to explore the depths of the Legion because the game fails at it so badly, but you're really stretching the point beyond the rational. It's one thing to claim there's more to them than meets the eye, which is fine, it's another to irrationally judge the NCR and the Legion by different standards just because you're a fan of the latter.

Tagz said:
Probably because it makes sense, rationally.

That doesn't make it "not sexism". Any gender separation of life's choices is sexism by definition. I bet the people who claimed women couldn't vote back in the day said it made sense, rationally, too. It's still sexism. It's not surprising you can't understand that, because you can justify it especially from a male-dominated perspective (after all, all the leaders are men too), but that doesn't mean it's not sexism. It is, per definition.
 
Isn't that the point? It's not that the NCR does nothing bad or wrong, clearly they do. But you're conflating the notion that they're flawed with the notion that this puts them on equal footing with the Legion.

The problem is not that any disagrees with you that the NCR is flawed. We can see that it is. The problem is your preposterous viewpoint that "The Legion isn't much worse than the NCR" (which you now contradict yourself here). You are equating a faction that slaughtered and burned a town for no good reason, a slave-driving army of rapists, you are equating them with a shoddily-run republic that at the very least does more good than it does harm. The best criticisms we have is "it's kind of corrupt" and "lost sight of its values"'. Your arguments all hinge on holding the NCR to higher standards than the Legion because they have loftier stated goals, and then somehow when they fall short of said goals but still easily outperform the Legion, that makes them equals in your eyes?
The NCR's methods are supporting their allies over neutrals and not giving them any choice in being claimed as NCR lands, and you're trying to compare that to a faction that will burn and rape its way through the Mojave? You're complaining about NCR's durability and stability when everyone agrees the Legion as a unified body will not survive the lifespan of a man with a brain tumor? On the basis of *that* you are not "so sure that the NCR overall is better than the Legion". Really?

And again, without the Legion being there, what is the major threat to the NCR's peace and stability? What threat or faction in the Mojave are they not equipped to deal with (other than the Courier activating the robot army)? In the various ending slides, they make a truce with the BoS, deal with the Fiends with heavy losses or not, and deal with the Great Khans and Powder Gangers. Nowhere does it say they fail to establish control, or that any of those factions remain a threat to people in the Mojave. According to your logic, they should, but they don't.

That means the alternatives aren't chaos under the NCR or peace under the Legion, as you posit. The alternatives are peace under the NCR or peace under the Legion. And framed like that, the Legion simply is not a reasonable alternative to the NCR, or even House.

I get wanting to explore the depths of the Legion because the game fails at it so badly, but you're really stretching the point beyond the rational. It's one thing to claim there's more to them than meets the eye, which is fine, it's another to irrationally judge the NCR and the Legion by different standards just because you're a fan of the latter.

I'm not a fan of the Legion. I like them, but personally, I support House. Between an imperialistic, war mongering "Republic" torn apart by petty private interests and Caesar's fledgling empire, I choose an ancient genius, who's essentially a technological God.

I may be stretching the point, that's true. For me, both sides are equally bad, but for different reasons. The Legion is at least honest in what it plans to do. The Republic, under the pretense of spreading civilization, is expanding like an empire, forcing its system on everyone in the Mojave, implementing a plan by a President whose methods in dealing with the Mojave (violent reprisals against indigenous tribes) are praised by Caesar.

My opinion may be colorized by my nationality: we've lost political sovereignty in 1795, only to regain it for a brief time in 1918 and lose again in 1939 for a further 50 years. The NCR's occupation of the Mojave reminds me of the Soviet "liberators" in Poland in 1944.

BN said:
That doesn't make it "not sexism". Any gender separation of life's choices is sexism by definition. I bet the people who claimed women couldn't vote back in the day said it made sense, rationally, too. It's still sexism. It's not surprising you can't understand that, because you can justify it especially from a male-dominated perspective (after all, all the leaders are men too), but that doesn't mean it's not sexism. It is, per definition.

I can understand that, I just don't classify Legion's particular form of sexism as it: when both genders have crappy prospects on life, it's a moot point.

To elaborate on the point: in my opinion, in order for gender segregation to become actual sexism, one gender has to have a relatively higher position than the other, as is the case with, say, wage discrimination or job recruitment. In the Legion, both genders are reduced to tools in the hands of Caesar, with an equal position: that of a slave, with no rights beyond fulfilling Caesar's wishes.

I'm highly baffled by the claims that legionaries have it better, because they can fight and die a brutal death, eg. disemboweled on the field of the battle. How is death by being hacked apart any more glorious than death in childbirth?
 
gumbarrel said:
Not great front line melee fighters, like the vast majority of Legion troops.
and you base this argument on what? A female can be taught melee combat just as much like any male. Difference in size? Its not like al males have the same strength or power or size. Again, combat moves or melee tactics can be learned by females just like by males.

Why do I know that? Look in to martial arts. There are enough females which would kick the butt of you, me or a 200 lb muscle guy. don't always go by the looks. I trained with females in Judo, and after some time with the correct techniques they had no trouble to win even against someone who had more weight and strength.
 
Tagaziel said:
I like them, but personally, I support House.

How libertarian. I liked House, but his long-term plans lacked plausibility, to me. Entertainment industries can not drive a developing economy if there are no heavy industries and trade as the core. Same problem as New Reno had in Fallout 2. Fallout devs could do to polish up on Economy 101.

Tagaziel said:
For me, both sides are equally bad, but for different reasons. The Legion is at least honest in what it plans to do.

That seems to be it. You're judging the NCR harsher because they're not honest, which - well - is the case for the government of every Republic and Democracy in the history of forever. That's hard to wrap my head around, though... the NCR has higher goals, and they don't hit them, but how does that make them "equally bad"? Strip it off ideology and speeches, and which faction has the better impact on the Mojave, both during the game and if they win, the NCR or the Legion? It's not even close.

Tagaziel said:
I can understand that, I just don't classify Legion's particular form of sexism as it: when both genders have crappy prospects on life, it's a moot point.

Moot, but still sexism.

Tagaziel said:
In the Legion, both genders are reduced to tools in the hands of Caesar, with an equal position: that of a slave, with no rights beyond fulfilling Caesar's wishes.

Is that true? I don't really bother reading up in the minutiae, but it seems to me men can rise to leadership positions while women can not. Sure, everyone is subservient to Caesar, but there's different levels of subservient. On top of that, aren't all women subservient to all men? Seems a pretty absolute higher position.
 
Brother None said:
How libertarian. I liked House, but his long-term plans lacked plausibility, to me. Entertainment industries can not drive a developing economy if there are no heavy industries and trade as the core. Same problem as New Reno had in Fallout 2. Fallout devs could do to polish up on Economy 101.

I think it is supposed to be seen as more of trade hub, but I think the scaling limitations of the game hide that some. I think the Crimson Caravan office is supposed to be big, the Van Graffs are there and there are handful other merchants around. There is more trade there in anywhere else in the Mojave at least.

Also he likely plans to make a lot of money selling energy from the dam, sort of like a modern oil king.


Is that true? I don't really bother reading up in the minutiae, but it seems to me men can rise to leadership positions while women can not. Sure, everyone is subservient to Caesar, but there's different levels of subservient. On top of that, aren't all women subservient to all men? Seems a pretty absolute higher position.

I think in the extended lore, the women that do the birthing stuff are supposed to have their own separate hierarchy, but obviously that isn't shown in the game or even mentioned.

I think they made mistake not showing more of the Legion home life and they know it. But even then I don't think the Legion is ever supposed to be seen as better, more to play that role of bad guy, but with a back story that justifies at least some of what they doing. I think the option to join them is there just because people like playing the villain, I'm sure lot of people have complained they couldn't join that Enclave over the years.
 
Also he likely plans to make a lot of money selling energy from the dam, sort of like a modern oil king.

Selling it to whom? He unleashed a robot army on his only possible customer. Who's gonna buy that electricity, the Legion? New Canaan? Oh sorry, the city has been razed to the ground on big C's whim.

That seems to be it. You're judging the NCR harsher because they're not honest, which - well - is the case for every single governing body in the history of forever.

Bolded my fix, but completely agree otherwise. It seems some of NCR's detractors holds them to ridiculous standards, and declare them to be corrupt and innefficient when they fail to meet them. The most hilarious example is this;, about the Kings situation;

So instead of investigating the matter, they cut the entire project. Great dedication.

Because what. Seriously, it's a small NCR force handing out food to local NCR citizens/refugees in order to make their lives easier, since said persons are not treated well in Freeside. Then they decide to improve relations by sending a messenger to the Kings. All they know is that the guy never returned. Logical conclusion; the King just told them to fuck off, and only tolerates them because attacking NCR directly means his death. In that scenario, they should just keep sending messengers to be cut down and draw even more attention to the fact that they are doing something the locals would never approve of? Seriously, that's retarded. They're not stupid.

I mean, they may be democracy and people like Kimball may preach whatever the hell they want, this is still the world of Fallout. You simply cannot survive nor thrive if you can't hold your own. I mean, a common theme of the only unquestiongly good faction, the Followers, is that they depend entirely on everybody else because of their pacifist, altruistic mindset. NCR cannot allow that, because it just means everyone is going to prey on them. They are far from being perfect, as I've said countless times, but as far as governments in post-apocalyptic death worlds go they've done very well for themselves without massacring, raping and enslaving left and right. Taxes? Cry me a friggin river. If it comes with representation, services and protection, how could taxes possibly be worse than slavery. People are always going to complain about taxes, but you think they won't pay any under House? Or that the Legion doesn't take money from this fabled well-protected citizenry we have yet to see anywhere in-game?

Also, I simply have to respond to this

One is enslavement, the other is taxation without representation and any say in the matter. Both the Legion and the NCR screw the Mojavians over.

Because it's stupid, sorry. The people of the Mojave do not pay taxes at all unless NCR wins. What tells you that they have no representation then? It's never said anywhere. Even IF it was true, paying taxes is somehow as bad as slavery? I really cannot understand the mindset. One sucks, the other is just life-breakingly awful.
 
Brother None said:
How libertarian. I liked House, but his long-term plans lacked plausibility, to me. Entertainment industries can not drive a developing economy if there are no heavy industries and trade as the core. Same problem as New Reno had in Fallout 2. Fallout devs could do to polish up on Economy 101.

I remember him mentioning that he plans to use the revenues from the dam and the strip to rebuild industries and the like, but he said very little and was very vague about it.

He also said the absurdities regarding space travel and sharing his med tech with the Courier but I guess he was just trying to convince him.

Ilosar said:
Also he likely plans to make a lot of money selling energy from the dam, sort of like a modern oil king.

Selling it to whom? He unleashed a robot army on his only possible customer.

So? What he sells is what they desperetely need. It's not like he killed his only possible customer. Do you think they'll refuse to buy electricity and water just for the principle of the matter?
 
Also, House plans need both Kimball and Oliver alive, so they serve as Scape Goats, the peopel of the Republic will blame the whole mess on them and not on House, a lot of people inside the NCR are very vocal about their disaproval of the Mojave Campaign. Like Chief Hanlon, who, in one ending, leads a campaign denouncing Kimball's warhawkish ways and become the Governor/Mayor/Political Leader of Redding.
 
Brother None said:
How libertarian. I liked House, but his long-term plans lacked plausibility, to me. Entertainment industries can not drive a developing economy if there are no heavy industries and trade as the core. Same problem as New Reno had in Fallout 2. Fallout devs could do to polish up on Economy 101.

Which is why House sets up trade as the core of New Vegas economy: with Vegas energy-independent thanks to Lucky 38's reactor, the entire power output of Hoover Dam can be sold to the NCR, together with virtually limitless clean water.

Furthermore, he explicitly states that he'll need half a century to restart the high technology industry (which includes heavy industry as a prerequsite), with the goal of putting people in space in a hundred years. Which isn't that implausible, considering we went from Benz's firt automobile internal comustion engine to Armstrong on the Moon in ninety years, having to invent everything beforehand.

That seems to be it. You're judging the NCR harsher because they're not honest, which - well - is the case for the government of every Republic and Democracy in the history of forever. That's hard to wrap my head around, though... the NCR has higher goals, and they don't hit them, but how does that make them "equally bad"? Strip it off ideology and speeches, and which faction has the better impact on the Mojave, both during the game and if they win, the NCR or the Legion? It's not even close.

I don't have a problem with a government being dishonest some of the time, it's one of the unfortunate drawbacks of any government. My problem is with how the NCR leadership is almost completely dishonest and corrupt: under the guise of bringing democracy and rule of law to the Mojave, they are pursuing an imperialistic, war mongering agenda. It isn't that they're not hitting their goals - they're not even trying to. It's enough to move Chief Hanlon, a patriot, to sabotaging his own army.

That's why I consider them equally bad. Legion might offer crappy prospects for life if you happen to be enslaved, better if you luck out and become a subject, but at least you are informed upfront that Caesar wants to establish a totalitarian state.

Moot, but still sexism.

Oh, okay, you win. :P

Tagaziel said:
Is that true? I don't really bother reading up in the minutiae, but it seems to me men can rise to leadership positions while women can not. Sure, everyone is subservient to Caesar, but there's different levels of subservient. On top of that, aren't all women subservient to all men? Seems a pretty absolute higher position.

Depends on what you mean on leadership. There are no positions that entail real power in the Legion: centurions and decanii are glorified team leaders, liable to be removed at any time for disobedience or failure. Hell, that's one of the reasons Graham was issued a one-way ticket into the Grand Canyon, on fire, despite being a Legate and Caesar's closest friend. Even Lucius, leader of the Praetorian guard, is worrying Caesar, as he might have the respect of other Praetorians, preventing them from challenging him for his position.

As for women, it isn't stated anywhere that they are subservient to men. They have different responsibilities that don't cross with the responsibilities of legionaries. The real problem is the attitude of the latter, which isn't something Caesar can fix.

However, this still brings us back to the original point: Legion is not shown enough in the game.

Ilosar said:
Selling it to whom? He unleashed a robot army on his only possible customer. Who's gonna buy that electricity, the Legion? New Canaan? Oh sorry, the city has been razed to the ground on big C's whim.

Sell it to the NCR, which needs energy and water from Hoover Dam. House only unleased his Securitrons on the Legion, as a demonstration of his power, subsequently demanding the capitulation and withdrawal of all NCR military from the Mojave.

This move is calculated to see that Kimball and Oliver fall from public grace and their imperialist policy is abandoned by the Republic (aided by Hanlon and others), but in such a way, as to keep the NCR as a business partner. House has nothing against the NCR, if they are not scheming to steal Vegas out from under him.

The entire deal is actually better for the Republic, as instead of wasting men and money on the Mojave, they can cut their military spending and devote the surplus to purchasing energy and water from House, who is then responsible for keeping the Mojave safe. Plus, the neutral wasteland there also becomes a buffer zone between the Legion and the Republic, as well as a trade hub for commercial activity.

Y'know, it's politics.

Bolded my fix, but completely agree otherwise. It seems some of NCR's detractors holds them to ridiculous standards, and declare them to be corrupt and innefficient when they fail to meet them.

Answered above.

The most hilarious example is this;, about the Kings situation;

So instead of investigating the matter, they cut the entire project. Great dedication.

Because what. Seriously, it's a small NCR force handing out food to local NCR citizens/refugees in order to make their lives easier, since said persons are not treated well in Freeside.

They only do that after Pacer beat up the messenger and the NCR just assumed, without further investigation, that the Kings are hostile.

Then they decide to improve relations by sending a messenger to the Kings. All they know is that the guy never returned.

Research fail. The messenger returned beat up and the NCR scrapped the entire relief project without further investigation. It was only Elizabeth Kieran's insistence that allowed for a limited, covert relief effort exclusively for NCR squatters.

Logical conclusion; the King just told them to fuck off, and only tolerates them because attacking NCR directly means his death. In that scenario, they should just keep sending messengers to be cut down and draw even more attention to the fact that they are doing something the locals would never approve of? Seriously, that's retarded. They're not stupid.

No, send an envoy with an escort that politely requests a meeting with the King. Or a covert agent to negotiate (like Crocker). Not react by sending a death squad like Moore.

I mean, they may be democracy and people like Kimball may preach whatever the hell they want, this is still the world of Fallout. You simply cannot survive nor thrive if you can't hold your own. I mean, a common theme of the only unquestiongly good faction, the Followers, is that they depend entirely on everybody else because of their pacifist, altruistic mindset.

Not really. The Followers aren't pacifists, otherwise why would they have armed guards at the fort? Weapons at the safehouse? Why would Tom Anderson consider killing an NCR investigator justified to maintain Westside?

NCR cannot allow that, because it just means everyone is going to prey on them. They are far from being perfect, as I've said countless times, but as far as governments in post-apocalyptic death worlds go they've done very well for themselves without massacring, raping and enslaving left and right. Taxes? Cry me a friggin river. If it comes with representation, services and protection, how could taxes possibly be worse than slavery. People are always going to complain about taxes, but you think they won't pay any under House? Or that the Legion doesn't take money from this fabled well-protected citizenry we have yet to see anywhere in-game?

How the people of the Mojave are represented in the process of annexation? They are not. Are they protected? Primm is evidence that they're not, as well as outer Vegas, Freeside, Westside, Novac etc. Services? See above.

The Legion does tax the people, but it makes them *safe* and gives them prosperity in return. It also doesn't pretend it's being just and equal at the same time.

Also, I simply have to respond to this

Because it's stupid, sorry. The people of the Mojave do not pay taxes at all unless NCR wins. What tells you that they have no representation then? It's never said anywhere. Even IF it was true, paying taxes is somehow as bad as slavery? I really cannot understand the mindset. One sucks, the other is just life-breakingly awful.

They do. Quote the petition:

We, the undersigned, do hereby agree for Primm to become full participants in the New California Republic. We accept that we will follow all of the NCR laws and regulations, and support them in all wartime efforts.

You're contradicting yourself. You're saying that the NCR wouldn't be providing protection for free, but also stating that they are, because they're not drawing taxes from people in the wastes.

As for the rest... Lack of representation was addressed above. Mass enslavement doesn't happen - a lot of people end up slaves (criteria are not disclosed, might as well be the sizeable amount of NCR citizens in Mojave), but a lot of people don't and are allowed to continue their lives.

Further, I'll refer you to this quote.

Tom Anderson said:
I don't go looking for fights with them, but they don't have the best interests of people in mind. Certainly not locals. The bottom line for NCR is productivity and growth. Politicians back in Shady Sands are completely detached from the people actually living here.

And:

Jules said:
You heard me. We don't like those stiff-back, clean-hand, little pussies. New Vegas belongs to the people. The NCR's just a corrupt and bloated monster, no better than any other Wasteland crawler. We make this land wealthy, and we ain't giving it up.
 
Tagaziel nailed it yet again. Don't let it go to your head though. :)
 
Back
Top