Japanese parliament questions 9-11 "truth"

meson said:
and fire can melt metal (whoah!), controlled demolition is not the only way to bring that kind of structure down
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Duh. The Twin Towers were amazingly well designed, particularly well designed not to fall over but collapse in on themselves (this was intentional design. Good thing too, it would've hurt if they had fallen on NYC)

I didn't work in construction for a long time, but while I know enough to trust the steadiness of the average building, I also picked up enough knowledge on structural integrity to know it isn't all that hard to disturb, and the statement "Jet fuel wouldn't generate enough to heat to melt steel. Only controlled explosions can do that." is utter bullshit.

That's what I meant with people believe what they want to believe. "Loose change" states "fire couldn't do this" as if it is fact, and because they pretend it's fact, people believe them. It's pretty idiotic, if you ask me.
 
I think its rather interesting that there was a potential for insiders to use knowledge of a future event- 9-11- to make a profit off the attack. I would think that's a worth while avenue of investigation for those trying to capture the people behind the crime.

What happened on 9-11 will no doubt be one of those conspiracies that takes on a life of its own- UFOs in Roswell, the truth behind the Kennedy assassination, etc.

But sorry, I don't see evidence that would convince me that flying a jumbo jet into a skyscraper designed like the WTC, spraying it with very hot fuel and turning them ablaze would not create the destruction that we saw on 9-11.

That the hole in the Pentago was not so big? Well- the Pentagon was built by the same fellow who oversaw the Manhattan Project and its a big, strong building and the pilots were not experienced. The distance between Reagan and the Pentagon is awfully small.

As for- "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people." After considerable years of teaching I can testify that there are, indeed, stupid people and stupid questions.

Conspiracy theory- only a fool would not believe in the existance of conspiracies. But conspiracy theory fails because its often unfalsificable and circular. Also, most conspiracy theory is done with people with too much time on their hands and is akin to intellectual masturbation.

I generally agree with Alec that standards are in decline.
 
i'm not a conspiracy theorist, but there are a few things that are very strange about the whole thing though:
- the buildings pancaked so quickly (free fall speed, which makes the pancake theory impossible anyway).
- the pools of molten steel that they found in the basement, which remained hot for WEEKS. color and behavior really points towards use of thermite (which in turn would validate the free fall, since nothing was left to support the building once the support beams were cut with thermite in the basement).
- the disappearance of the third WTC building, which amongst other things was supposed to house a CIA front. another perfect demolition (while it wasnt touched at all by the twintowers). now, this could also simply have been the CIA, just to make sure no one gets hold of their stuff which would be a serious breach in national security. probably worth demolishing a building.


still, proves nothing, of course. it's odd though, that you never hear one other possibility: the contractor building the WTC might have cut corners on the metal... lower quality means lower heat resistance...

@ welsh, the uberhot kerosine story is bullshit though, you can see LIVE people in the crater the plane made. they would not be there if the plane really did cause a 5000°c-7000°c burn... much more likely is a 3000°c-4000°c fire (if even that, since more than one specialist has suggested that there would be a lack of oxygen, meaning the fire burns less hot), which has NEVER wrecked a steel structure building in history.
 
SuAside said:
i'm not a conspiracy theorist, but there are a few things that are very strange about the whole thing though:
- the buildings pancaked so quickly (free fall speed, which makes the pancake theory impossible anyway).
- the pools of molten steel that they found in the basement, which remained hot for WEEKS. color and behavior really points towards use of thermite (which in turn would validate the free fall, since nothing was left to support the building once the support beams were cut with thermite in the basement).
- the disappearance of the third WTC building, which amongst other things was supposed to house a CIA front. another perfect demolition (while it wasnt touched at all by the twintowers). now, this could also simply have been the CIA, just to make sure no one gets hold of their stuff which would be a serious breach in national security. probably worth demolishing a building.


still, proves nothing, of course. it's odd though, that you never hear one other possibility: the contractor building the WTC might have cut corners on the metal... lower quality means lower heat resistance...

@ welsh, the uberhot kerosine story is bullshit though, you can see LIVE people in the crater the plane made. they would not be there if the plane really did cause a 5000°c-7000°c burn... much more likely is a 3000°c-4000°c fire (if even that, since more than one specialist has suggested that there would be a lack of oxygen, meaning the fire burns less hot), which has NEVER wrecked a steel structure building in history.
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The crater from the crash in the Pentagon? When did the people show up?

Given the number of witnesses and the evidence of the Pentagon crash- I suspect that the conspiracy theory (the hole was too small) is rather weak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77

Or are all the witnesses liars?

As for Al Qaeda being involved- the identity of the hijackers was known. Witnesses on the planes also saw them. There were numerous calls- where these also fabricated?

As for the collapse- the summary on wikipedia seems pretty convincing-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

I think the "advanced knowledge" conspiracy is a bit more interesting- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_advanced-knowledge_debate

But that doesn't dismiss the cause of the accident- only that people knew it was going to happen.

More conspiracy theories?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
 
Brother None said:
and the statement "Jet fuel wouldn't generate enough to heat to melt steel. Only controlled explosions can do that." is utter bullshit.
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Actually jet fuel couldn't melt structural steel :P

But it coul certainly weaken it enough to cause a structure to fall in on itself.

At that temperature, jet fuel will cause the structural integrity of the steel to drop to less than half of what it was before, which is more than enough for take down a skyscraper with a ton of floors being suspended by those columns.

I find the story of the towers themselves pretty legit, but there are a lot of questions to be asked, thats for sure.

I'm undecided, a skeptic of both the official strory and the conspiracies.
 
See the thing is conspiracy theories will never be proved. I personally believe that technology has already grown leaps and bounds.

Who knows that kind of technology the government has at its disposal. Some say usually ten+ years ahead of what the civilian market sees as "state of the art".

If the right authorities saw the attack coming, why did they not investigate it instead of sitting on their laurels and allowing it to happen? If your answer is it was a suprise or never happened before thats kinda wrong. Although the targets were not buildings, a certain notorious event was seen ahead of time in 1941 but purposely not investigated or verified?

The result of the attack galvanized the american nation for war and eventually was a direct cause for american global dominance along with the soviet union.

PS: You know the funniest thing is was an episode on the X-Files (or was it 24) where terrorist used a mock plane suicide attack from a FBI/CIA simulation to help facilitate a real life attack. As far as I know this was way before 9-11.
 
I think the idea that our government blew up the towers is pretty far fetched, but on the other hand, willfully turning a blind eye to a terrorist act that they saw coming long in advance and could have prevented? That seems more likely, even reasonable.
 
Why is it so hard to believe that Al Qaeda and its agents were the ones who profited, resulting in the financial irregularities eveidenced in this particular conspiracy theory? Osama et al knew enough about capitalism and markets to despise them; does this mean they're above taking advantage of them? I think not.
 
maximaz said:
Yes, blindly believing documentaries and TV shows is dumb but you cannot ignore them. You just have to choose what you want to believe and what you don't. That's why it's so important to clearly present facts, which not many pro-conspiracy films focus on.
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I agree. You have to choose what you believe and what you don't. The point I was trying to make is...for example....I have heard of people quoting Wikipedia as a reference for very important issues. It makes me want to laugh and vomit all at the same time.
 
TorontRayne said:
maximaz said:
Yes, blindly believing documentaries and TV shows is dumb but you cannot ignore them. You just have to choose what you want to believe and what you don't. That's why it's so important to clearly present facts, which not many pro-conspiracy films focus on.
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I agree. You have to choose what you believe and what you don't. The point I was trying to make is...for example....I have heard of people quoting Wikipedia as a reference for very important issues. It makes me want to laugh and vomit all at the same time.
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Actually I don't agree. Its not a matter of choosing what you want to believe, but what you can prove and disprove.

We are talking about an attack against a major nation, planes being used as guided missiles against targets resulting in the deaths of nearly 3000 people. This is not a matter of belief.

Belief is a matter of religion. Science is about proving it through a process of falsification to explain causation. It doesn't matter what you believe, but what you can prove. Otherwise you make the same mistake as the conspiracy theories.

Prove the case and you will still have conspiracy theorists because people want to believe in conspiracies. But rational people can dismiss those theories as foolish speculation. There are stupid people and stupid questions.

The problem of conspiracy theory here is that it chooses the facts to test its case. The counter position argues that one must accumulate all the evidence to explore causation.

We need to distinguish "what is" from "what we want to believe" or even "what people want us to believe." If you don't understand the difference than you might as well join the first whacky church and guzzle down the Kool Aid when its your turn.
 
maximaz said:
Not everyone has to have an opinion but it's good to have one, if you ask me. Opinions produce arguments, arguments produce new ideas.
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Opinions are like Assholes . Everybody has one and they all stink ! :mrgreen:
 
May I ask a question then BN / Welsh, the points brought up in Loose Change for example, they may or may not be true, certainly the plane's passengers point I don't believe simply because what would the government do with 100+ people?

However there has to be some reasoning as to why you think every statement or question aired in that video is utterly preposterous?

Honestly speaking I do think that there's something fishy with the pentagon attack, what with the turbine size and the lack of actual plane parts besides a turbine and a few bits and bobs.

But either way the towers themselves, I don't think that they would easily collapse by any stretch, however at the same time I don't think any sane government would allow the towers to fall on the populous.

It is entirely possible that in order to save the rest of the city they had to cut the support from below instead of having those huge buildings devastate the majority of the city due to their structure failing.

I may not believe what the government is doing is right all the time, but I don't think they're out to kill every last one of us either, their job is to get re-elected after all, why would they jeopardize that by killing off their voting base?
 
Eh, I say we are all allowed to believe what the hell we want and to even discuss those beliefs.

However it crosses the line when someone has a need to prove they are right and get others to follow along.
 
Murdoch said:
Why is it so hard to believe that Al Qaeda and its agents were the ones who profited, resulting in the financial irregularities eveidenced in this particular conspiracy theory? Osama et al knew enough about capitalism and markets to despise them; does this mean they're above taking advantage of them? I think not.
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That is very interesting. I have always wondered why Al Queda, Hamas, etc, etc, do what they do. Yeah they scare people but their tactics still haven't gained much ground.

The Israelis only get more angry everytime a terror attack happens and instead of wanting to give up more ground they grow more determined. So far their policies have only caused problems instead of actually do something serious for the arab people.

Why not work closer with bigger countries like the PRC, Russian Federation, Pakistan, etc, etc? Haven't they seen the necessity for unity yet the middle east always devolves into fractional fighting once the "hedgemon" is gone. Why for all this time, has the middle east not rose up together as one middle east super nation intent on safegaurding their own interests and resources?
 
Well Mord Sith they could have killed them and disposed of there bodies for one.Its a bit out there for some people,but so is believing that Kennedy was assassinated by the CIA. Welsh, I believe that in certain circumstances where the facts don't add up that it is someones right to "choose" what they believe because nothing adds up. Too many things don't add up with 9/11. I have my opinions about the situation of course,but like many have said....no one gives a fuck what my opinion is. No proof to back it up.
 
Mord_Sith said:
However there has to be some reasoning as to why you think every statement or question aired in that video is utterly preposterous?
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There would have to be some reasoning to that if that were actually what I said. But it's not. I never even watched Loose Change, just like I don't watch Michael Moore films...

It's funny, because as an extension of "everyone's opinion is worth something", I should feel obligated to listen to non-credible sources like Moore or Loose Change, who have absolutely no accountability and both have a proven track record of lying (well, not really a "track record" for Loose Change, but still...)

Why should I listen to them? I've read articles disproving Loose Change, just like I've read articles unmasking Moore's deceitful editing. But I'm not actually going to watch stuff I already know is false.

Funny thing is that'd make me "close-minded", but it doesn't. The problem is not that they have a different opinion than me, I have no problem with credible information and documentaries that draw different conclusions than I do after properly using audi alteram partem (which, I must note, Moore, Gore and Loose Change all do not. Strictly speaking that makes them propaganda, not information dissemination), but that they lie. But somehow, "open-minded" means you have to give credibility to people who manipulate, be it Moore, Gore or Loose Change.

Why?

Because everyone's opinion matters.

No it doesn't. And fuck you.

Mord_Sith said:
It is entirely possible that in order to save the rest of the city they had to cut the support from below instead of having those huge buildings devastate the majority of the city due to their structure failing.
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Again, the twin towers were built not to fall over. That's how they were designed, simple as that. No mystery, just good engineering.

DarkCorp said:
Yeah they scare people but their tactics still haven't gained much ground.
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What? Before this shit started, islamism was a fringe ideology, even in muslim countries. Thanks to 9/11 and the consequent attacks on the Middle East, it's gained incredible influence and got a lot more members. They gained a lot of ground.
 
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