Lakota indians declare independence from US

This started out as a "is it feasible for them to succeed" debate, but degenerated into a sorrow fest.

Yeah, you have the right idea, stopping here also.
 
This is very true.
Welcome to the world of government subsidies, which btw, are going to be stopped.
It's a win/win... we get more tax money, and they get their pride and are forced to fend for themselves, and its also their own choice.. I think everyone wins this way, and the natural balance is restored.
 
Illegal or not, I have no misconceptions about what the Lakota and all the American Indians deserve. At the very least they deserve thanks for solving the worlds food problems, giving us advanced medicine, the USA their style of government (Democracy), gold, silver, pretty much the entire planet owes them a debt that it can never replay.

Do the Lakota deserve their own independent nation? I think all American Indians do after what we have done to them. What a complicated situation eh? It could have been rectified were we to have paid attention to them, treated them with a little dignity and respect. Given them more than concentration camps, mass genocide, plagues and little reservations.

To this vary day no monument stands near DC as a tribute to the American Indians. Those whom gave birth to a new age of incomprehensible magnitude. Well, there is one monument... A nun baptizing a "savage" showing the world who really helped who.

...Think Rage Against The Machine will make a new song?!
 
Maphusio said:
Illegal or not, I have no misconceptions about what the Lakota and all the American Indians deserve. At the very least they deserve thanks for solving the worlds food problems, giving us advanced medicine, the USA their style of government (Democracy), gold, silver, pretty much the entire planet owes them a debt that it can never replay.
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...What...the...hell...
 
Article said:
The treaties signed with the United States are merely "worthless words on worthless paper," the Lakota freedom activists say on their website.
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xdarkyrex said:
The reality is that we signed a treaty, and must honor it.
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xdarkyrex why do you work against the Indians. Are you not grateful for silver and democracy.

Maphusio said:
the entire planet owes them a debt that it can never replay.
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Because it misplaced the CD and anyway it did all the side quests the first time through.
 
You have GOT to be kidding me, Chinese medicine was far greater, so was Roman medicine before it gave way to the medieval quacks, to say that modern medicine is solely based on North American natives is little more than bullocks.

What dignity they had in the past they've long since sold for treaty rights and welfare checks from what I see around the city, I don't know about the rest of the world, but my sympathy well dried up a long time ago for their self perpetuated discourse.

Was it a crime that they sold their land for beads and baubles, no but it was extremely bad judgment on their part, so we've been paying them back ever since, don't you think that after over a century of paying them, we'd finally have paid off the damn tab?

They have become supplemental to the system, they cannot leave it anymore because that's all that they know how to do, the ones that do I have the utmost respect for, but the ones that believe it's their god given right to sucker every working person outta a chunk of his paycheck are the ones that I dispise.

You don't see anyone in Brittan paying off the Pict descendants because the Saxons invaded them do you? What about all that infighting between France and Brittan, they aren't paying a dime to each other they don't have to.

Why are North American natives so damn special that they're above the standard human rights, why do they get all these perks JUST FOR BEING BORN?

I'm a Caucasian male in Canada of no obvious minority decent, I am a second class citizen because I was born that way, does that sound right to you?

If they want to wing it on their own, power to them, but don't give me the bullocks train about woe is the Natives, 'cause they've been using that line for over a century now, it's about damn time it stopped!
 
Brother None said:
Maphusio said:
Illegal or not, I have no misconceptions about what the Lakota and all the American Indians deserve. At the very least they deserve thanks for solving the worlds food problems, giving us advanced medicine, the USA their style of government (Democracy), gold, silver, pretty much the entire planet owes them a debt that it can never replay.
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...What...the...hell...
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The United States based its own government for the most part, on the system that the American Indians had all ready in place. Many whom drafted the Decoration of Independence spent allot of time with the American Indians (Benjamin Franklin for one). Studying their governmental system.

Of course, there were some addendums made. We could not possibly live in the style of leaderless government that the American Indians enjoyed. We had to have a supreme power, the President.

Edit: If any of you are interested and would enjoy being completely amazed at what the American Indians have given the world a great read from the 1980's is "Indian Givers" by Jack Weatherford
 
Maphusio said:
The United States based its own government for the most part, on the system that the American Indians had all ready in place. Many whom drafted the Decoration of Independence spent allot of time with the American Indians (Benjamin Franklin for one). Studying their governmental system.
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Oh, yeah, totally, it's not...y'know, they had any other examples to work with. It was all the friggin' Indians.
 
Brother None said:
Maphusio said:
The United States based its own government for the most part, on the system that the American Indians had all ready in place. Many whom drafted the Decoration of Independence spent allot of time with the American Indians (Benjamin Franklin for one). Studying their governmental system.
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Oh, yeah, totally, it's not...y'know, they had any other examples to work with. It was all the friggin' Indians.
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If you were to compare the American Indians form of government, Greek, and that of the current USA. You would see more parallels between the American Indians and the USA.
 
That is what's called a biased opinion, generated from creating the answer in your head then connecting the evidence to support your theory rather than letting the evidence create it's own answer.
 
Maphusio said:
If you were to compare the American Indians form of government, Greek, and that of the current USA. You would see more parallels between the American Indians and the USA.
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Yes, and if I take the Dutch waterboards from the 13th century onwards I can see more parallels in their structure and the American's than in the Indian's and American's.

So, when are you going to start paying tribute to me? You owe "my people" so much, after all.

biased opinion
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Actually you're thinking affirmative bias, and yes, this Maphusio's thinking is indeed affirmative bias.
 
And it's not at all like the American government was modelled after contemporary liberal and Masonic philosophy from Europe...
 
Heh. Free-Masons should be allowed to live in the US tax-free! You owe them *so much*

Same for the Chinese!
 
In defense of the indians, it is a bit unfair. They were given two options, sign a treaty, or get forcibly moved and/or killed. I can't say I blame them for their choice.... but we have since been moving in on the land we gave them. Like I said before, refer to the picture on the first page and compare the yellow, the land we gave them,. to the red, the land they currently have. (no the treaty has not been changed... so why has the land?)
 
I don't dispute that, however north of you we've been paying these guys Billions, including administration it's about 7billion a year, behind the scenes it's more like 4-5 billion (minus administration), so far what I've seen is it gets blown on shipping crap up to their little hovels where they don't want to integrate with society otherwise they loose a large portion of their money.

So yes the government is a bunch of jagoffs not giving them an incentive to integrate, but that's not stopping them from trying, what about that free schooling for treaty natives, all university expenses get covered by the government, or what about all those nice child farmers who make more than I do to sit at home and shoot out kids to pay the bills!

What other minority gets the kind of red carpet treatment these guys do, I was born, why don't I get that kind of money, why are they so bloody special that they get to live off the government.

They signed the treaty TO BE forcibly moved and/or killed in a slower process, I swear, the noble native generations of the past are dead, what's left is their kids who live off their exploits and then their kid's kids live off of it and so on and so forth.

Everyone else who comes to this country to live in has to integrate with society, they can't seclude themselves, they can't hermit, and they have to be at least moderately productive, they don't get this kind of government support.

They're free to keep up their beliefs and their heritage all they want (as long as it doesn't break the laws of the country) so that bit doesn't fly with me either about them needing to be on these remote places for their heritage.

If others like the Chinese, Indians, European, etc. can manage to keep up their own beliefs and hold their own in Canada's society, why can't the natives?
 
The difference is that they didnt come to this country... we did.
And now we are in control.
I don't think, as people, they deserve subsidies or any rights that other people dont have, but I do think they they deserve their own land and government, COMPLETELY seperate from ours, as a foreign entity, like canada and mexico.
 
xdarkyrex said:
I don't think, as people, they deserve subsidies or any rights that other people dont have, but I do think they they deserve their own land and government, COMPLETELY seperate from ours, as a foreign entity, like canada and mexico.
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Why? People move around quite a lot, and sometimes you lose territory, or you're conquered and have to live under rule of another people. It happens, that's how history works, this is no special exception in which the indians have special rights. They got conquered, they should deal with it.
 
They never had a 'country' to begin with, they believed the land was to be shared by all, and as far as them deserving anything let's just do a quick calculation shall we, let's even low-ball it, let's estimate that about 3 billion gets to them a year up north here and not count welfare or anything else they're getting.

From 1492 (when the majority of the European and Spanish colonization was in full swing) to now they would have received roughly 1545 BILLION dollars (not counting monetary fluxuation however the value fluctuates based on the dollar that they receive anyways.)

How much do you figure a country is worth, even one the size of the US?

--EDIT--

Forgive me, I seem to have erred on the year, 1492 was the first discovery, 1583 was when colonization was going on, adjusting my calculations it would be around 1272 Billion dollars since then.
 
They are dealing with it, and this is how.

I do beleive this is the treaty.
http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/1851_la.html

This treaty is still the binding and legal treaty of indian nations, it has not been changed since then.
But guess what?
The land they still legally own... isnt owned by them.
We went in once we discovered the the black hills were full of gold, and became "managers" of the land. Now, if youll look at the picture on the first page, the red is the areas that now makeup their land. As per our constitution, we are to follow our own treaties, and when we do not, all parties involved are to be tried and summarily punished. In this case, the plight of these people has been going on unheard for a long time, but theyve been fighting as best that can this whole time. This is a long term plan of theirs finallyt come fruition after what is simply too much, we abuse them and defy our own treaties, we are liars and thieves, and I feel they reserve every right to dissacoaite with people who have been lying to them this whole time, despite an agreement.
 
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