xdarkyrex said:
Really? You can't think of any events in say, president Bush's reign, in which the US has violated treaties with other nations?
Is that a joke?
Lakota indians declare independence from US
- Thread starter Colonel_here
- Start date
Really? You can't think of any events in say, president Bush's reign, in which the US has violated treaties with other nations?
Is that a joke?
Yeah, we're doin a pretty fucked up job as a country.
But what is your point?
Those other problems aren't directly related to this problem, other than to point out hte fact that I live in a country whos main policy is "might equals right", even if it is completely opposite from that on paper. I don't just blame the administration, the stupid pieces of shit in this country let him and all our senators get into power with their votes or lack thereof. Hurrah for democracy...
But what is your point?
Those other problems aren't directly related to this problem, other than to point out hte fact that I live in a country whos main policy is "might equals right", even if it is completely opposite from that on paper. I don't just blame the administration, the stupid pieces of shit in this country let him and all our senators get into power with their votes or lack thereof. Hurrah for democracy...
xdarkyrex said:
My point is that the US, just like most other countries, does not hold 100% true to its word. It shouldn't, it's impossible to do so from an international diplomatic point of view (and thinking Bush is the only one to do so is stupid).
To then claim the US should prioritize in holding true to a 150-year old treaty as if that would somehow prove them honourable is kinda laughable.
Mord_Sith
Mildly Dipped
YES I am a liar and a thief, I wear a raccoon mask and striped pajamas because it suites me so damn well,
1200 Billion dollars and they still want more, egads man, I'm not trying to be rude but do you have your head screwed on straight?
I said earlier, power to them for wanting to stand on their own two feet, but this is not going to work, living off of the government then biting the hand that feeds does not usually go over well with anyone, ESPECIALLY the united states, who go to war for fantasy reasons these days.
I don't recall signing any sheet of paper at birth saying that I will pay my dues to my native overlords because I am a second class citizen.
Who said anything about paying the overlords?
This would STOP giving them subsidies, and it would not cause anyone to be ruled by them against their will...
I didn't say Bush was the only one to do so, i complained about all our public officials
this is a historic problem. I agree that it is impossible to hold true to ones word 100% of the time, but right now, we need the credibility pretty badly, we done fucked up pretty fierce already on the international stage. If anything, I hope for a violent revolt that will further motivate people that this country has gotten out of hand and needs to be fixed. its a mess.
This would STOP giving them subsidies, and it would not cause anyone to be ruled by them against their will...
Brother None said:
I didn't say Bush was the only one to do so, i complained about all our public officials
this is a historic problem. I agree that it is impossible to hold true to ones word 100% of the time, but right now, we need the credibility pretty badly, we done fucked up pretty fierce already on the international stage. If anything, I hope for a violent revolt that will further motivate people that this country has gotten out of hand and needs to be fixed. its a mess.
xdarkyrex said:I didn't say Bush was the only one to do so, i complained about all our public officials
this is a historic problem. I agree that it is impossible to hold true to ones word 100% of the time, but right now, we need the credibility pretty badly, we done fucked up pretty fierce already on the international stage. If anything, I hope for a violent revolt that will further motivate people that this country has gotten out of hand and needs to be fixed. its a mess.
Hahah, oh wow, man, you're just careening over the edge, aren't you?
:/
I dunno, I've got typical apathetic jaded American in poverty angst, I guess. I'm just gonna move up to the northwest coast and buy a small plot of land and live off of it without being part of civilization. If this plan works for the indians, I would very likely consider moving over to their country, once I am finished with my education.
I just want to hide under a rock and pretend I'm not part of this country. I just want to be alone and mind my own business, maybe keep my money in a safe under the foundation (although then the fbi would probably take it all like douchebags, that happened to a guy on the news yesterday)
Man... my bias is showing.
I'ma bow out of this conversation at this point.
I dunno, I've got typical apathetic jaded American in poverty angst, I guess. I'm just gonna move up to the northwest coast and buy a small plot of land and live off of it without being part of civilization. If this plan works for the indians, I would very likely consider moving over to their country, once I am finished with my education.
I just want to hide under a rock and pretend I'm not part of this country. I just want to be alone and mind my own business, maybe keep my money in a safe under the foundation (although then the fbi would probably take it all like douchebags, that happened to a guy on the news yesterday)
Man... my bias is showing.
I'ma bow out of this conversation at this point.
Colonel_here
First time out of the vault
As was mentioned for the Indians and other Aboriginals around the world the problem lies is that European society and values were thrust on them. When person immigrates to another country they "consent" to the ideas, laws and values of the country. Aboriginals around the world did not have that curtsy. European culture was thrust on them and attempts were made to make them European without ever looking in to their culture or society systems.
Aboriginals experienced a huge culture shock. They were in nomadic, and early agricultural societies when the European arrived with their society that was on the brink of industrial revolution.
Aboriginals did not understand the laws or the concepts with which the European approached them in different treaties. How easy is to understand the legal jargon right now for people without any education in law? No consider the aboriginals who never even heard of half of the concepts being talked about. It is like coming to 5th grade kids with the calculus and trigonometry.
How much money do people that live on their territory owe them well a lot. Their whole way of life was destroyed their economy that existed was destroyed. For North Americans their economy and way of life relied on buffaloes. I don't see that many running around these days. I guess to make it make this easier to understand, how about this. What if the whole financial industry was wiped out with all the money that was invested and held by it? Would return of the monetary loss after 100 be enough for people of North America? Or would they demand more for destruction of their lives and well being and everything else that they enjoyed to have when the financial industry existed.
The Atlantic treaty and UN Charter says that people have the right of self determination. In this case nobody asked the Indians if they want to live under the current government.
In Canada, the Indians are not citizens but rather Canadian Indians because they did not choose to be part of Canada.
It is true to aboriginals around cry too much and do very little. I know of example of community of aboriginals in BC that started their own businesses and industries based on logging, electricity generation and cultural exports.
And there is a huge possibilities for aboriginals to use their culture as export.
As for claims about democracy in US being based on Indian systems of government. Well maybe slightly they borrowed there and there. But the American revolutionary leaders would not have borrowed heavily from Indians. Benjamin Franklin was of very low opinion of Indians and saw them as savages and lower species, so why would he borrow ideas from what he believes are inferior people. There was plenty inspiration from other sources including his contemporaries as the age of enlightenment was full of people who thought they knew how to run the government.
I would say best example of attempt to deal with the Aboriginal issues so far is Nunavut in Canada. Territory is part of Canada but has a lot of internal organization based after the Inuit traditions of government.
Aboriginals experienced a huge culture shock. They were in nomadic, and early agricultural societies when the European arrived with their society that was on the brink of industrial revolution.
Aboriginals did not understand the laws or the concepts with which the European approached them in different treaties. How easy is to understand the legal jargon right now for people without any education in law? No consider the aboriginals who never even heard of half of the concepts being talked about. It is like coming to 5th grade kids with the calculus and trigonometry.
How much money do people that live on their territory owe them well a lot. Their whole way of life was destroyed their economy that existed was destroyed. For North Americans their economy and way of life relied on buffaloes. I don't see that many running around these days. I guess to make it make this easier to understand, how about this. What if the whole financial industry was wiped out with all the money that was invested and held by it? Would return of the monetary loss after 100 be enough for people of North America? Or would they demand more for destruction of their lives and well being and everything else that they enjoyed to have when the financial industry existed.
The Atlantic treaty and UN Charter says that people have the right of self determination. In this case nobody asked the Indians if they want to live under the current government.
In Canada, the Indians are not citizens but rather Canadian Indians because they did not choose to be part of Canada.
It is true to aboriginals around cry too much and do very little. I know of example of community of aboriginals in BC that started their own businesses and industries based on logging, electricity generation and cultural exports.
And there is a huge possibilities for aboriginals to use their culture as export.
As for claims about democracy in US being based on Indian systems of government. Well maybe slightly they borrowed there and there. But the American revolutionary leaders would not have borrowed heavily from Indians. Benjamin Franklin was of very low opinion of Indians and saw them as savages and lower species, so why would he borrow ideas from what he believes are inferior people. There was plenty inspiration from other sources including his contemporaries as the age of enlightenment was full of people who thought they knew how to run the government.
I would say best example of attempt to deal with the Aboriginal issues so far is Nunavut in Canada. Territory is part of Canada but has a lot of internal organization based after the Inuit traditions of government.
Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
I don't know, it just sounds like another Qubec' which probably wouldn't survive unless the government keeps giving them special treatment.
They should move to China, then they can be assimilated like the huge amount of minority groups here.
They should move to China, then they can be assimilated like the huge amount of minority groups here.
Mord_Sith
Mildly Dipped
They're obviously used to taking monetary compensation for their land, why I bet you at the current rate if all the buffalo from that time existed now, you could buy them up with oh about 30 billion, so there's their 'industry' now their land, that leaves 1170 Billion that has been given to them since the late 1500s I hate to break it to you, but there weren't that many Indians left after they finally stopped fighting.
Besides, I don't think Rome has to put up with this kind of crap, and yet they annexed dozens of cultures in favor of their own, why do we have to keep cutting our own wrists because these people want to live off of their ancients laurels.
3 1/2 centuries are more than enough if you ask me, it's about time they either go with the Lakotas, or integrated with society like everyone else, they've gotten used to the comforts that go along with European traditions, I'm not asking them to abandon their beliefs, but start pulling their own bloody weight.
As for Nunavut, odds are that most Canadians have no clue of it's existence, hell even I was blindsided by it a few years back, it's always been the northwest territories to me. It's a terrible land zone just as all reserves are that nobody wants to live in because the ground is constantly saturated in permafrost and nothing can grow there.
To get any kind of crop out there you'd have to start investing in hydroponics and wind / solar collectors because it's so barren that wind just whips past up there and the solar collectors to add to their energy stockpiles.
From there they would have to also try to get some kind of regular shipping route set up (trains come to mind but a hi-way could also work) that can bring materials and manpower up there cheaply.
The snow roads are useless, you need some kind of permanent road structure that is maintained so that you can get cheap supplies year round.
But this all takes planning and initiative, and everything I see around main street in Winnipeg speaks volumes of the opposite, however as I have said before, I know a few that actually try to make something of themselves, hell I'm friends with most of them, it's just the layabouts that piss me off more than anything else.
That and the fact that I can't choose who I give my money to, I have no problem giving money to someone who needs it, but when I know it's just getting blown out their arses, and I can't say no is what gets my backup.
Besides, I don't think Rome has to put up with this kind of crap, and yet they annexed dozens of cultures in favor of their own, why do we have to keep cutting our own wrists because these people want to live off of their ancients laurels.
3 1/2 centuries are more than enough if you ask me, it's about time they either go with the Lakotas, or integrated with society like everyone else, they've gotten used to the comforts that go along with European traditions, I'm not asking them to abandon their beliefs, but start pulling their own bloody weight.
As for Nunavut, odds are that most Canadians have no clue of it's existence, hell even I was blindsided by it a few years back, it's always been the northwest territories to me. It's a terrible land zone just as all reserves are that nobody wants to live in because the ground is constantly saturated in permafrost and nothing can grow there.
To get any kind of crop out there you'd have to start investing in hydroponics and wind / solar collectors because it's so barren that wind just whips past up there and the solar collectors to add to their energy stockpiles.
From there they would have to also try to get some kind of regular shipping route set up (trains come to mind but a hi-way could also work) that can bring materials and manpower up there cheaply.
The snow roads are useless, you need some kind of permanent road structure that is maintained so that you can get cheap supplies year round.
But this all takes planning and initiative, and everything I see around main street in Winnipeg speaks volumes of the opposite, however as I have said before, I know a few that actually try to make something of themselves, hell I'm friends with most of them, it's just the layabouts that piss me off more than anything else.
That and the fact that I can't choose who I give my money to, I have no problem giving money to someone who needs it, but when I know it's just getting blown out their arses, and I can't say no is what gets my backup.
All right, now that I am not in a mad rush to get to work. I shall dazzle you with a tiny bit of what the American Indians gave the world. Forgive me if these thoughts seem fragmented, I'll try to be as coherent as possible here.
Lets start with some thing simple... Food. Arguably, food of the Americas are not the gift of the American Indians. How could it be? The food grew naturally in the Americas, the Indians just learned to cultivate it. Ahh, Cultivation, where did we learn how to process and prepare many of our foods today? What better place than from those who know best. Interestingly many growing techniques far superior to any crop grown today are still ignored by the world. For instance, American Indians did not grow rows of crops as the Europeans were accustomed to. They would grow food in odd shape mounds. Sometimes hundreds of small mounds depending on the size of the population. These mounds do not erode or lose their nutrients unlike our own crops today. This practice not only avoided a potentially catastrophic environmental issue (Great American Dust Bowl... all of Africa) it provided a stable food supply. There was no over grazing or forests being clear cut to plant a new farm in better soil.
Lets examine the types of foods we eat today that the American Indians taught us how to grow and cultivate (over 300 crops). Many of these foods have now become the staple of countless countries that without these foods, would have never became what they are today. The potato (no, the Irish imported the potato from South America. Corn, "wild rice", sunflower (Russia's greatest American plant), beans, squashes, American peanuts, countless spices and amaranth to name just a few.
Foods like chocolate, coffee, bubble gum or tapioca are of American origin. The amount of drugs and use of pharmaceuticalogy that they provided is truly staggering. Drugs like coca, tobacco, peyote and poppy all come from America. Cures and treatments for sicknesses and diseases such as scurvy, lockjaw or malaria come from the American Indians.
Now onto government. Remember, history is often written by the victors. In almost every North American nation that we have detailed political information, the supreme authority rested in the group rather than the individual, sounds familiar. There were no leaders, the concept of the "Indian Chief" did not exit among the Indians except when the old world demanded that they deal with one person. A great example would be the Creek Indians. One such appointed leader realized what the old world was up to. He successfully manipulated the great foreign powers into thinking he was working in their best interest all while turning his tribe into one of the wealthiest and most powerful in North America.
The League of the Iroquois were one of the the largest, most endearing nations. Composed of MANY other completely different Indian tribes. The Iroquois permitted a vote to allow new tribes to join as the USA permits new states (Congressional Resolution of 1780, Land Ordinances of 1784 and 1785 and the Northwest Ordinance). Many Indian tribes fleeing the persecution of the whites were admitted to the League of the Iroquois that very way.
According to Mr. Thomas Jefferson's associate Mr. Charles Thompson; of whom wrote a very detailed account on the American Indians social and political institutions. This was included in Thomas Jefferson's "Notes on the state of Virginia". Thompson stated that each Indian town built a council house for making local decisions as well as electing tribal delegates to the tribal council. That tribal council elected delegates to the national council. This was written YEARS before the constitution of the united states.
The Indian's that Thomson studied had to lay down their civil office if they had to go to war. That leader could not act as both warrior and leader. Better yet, if the conduct of one of these leaders appeared improper to the populous the women of his clan could vote to impeach him. This concept was still unheard of in Europe at the time. A leader would rule until death even if he or she was incapacitated.
The caucus (Algonquian word not lain) permits informal discussion of an issue without requiring a yay or nay vote. This is exactly how the American Indians discussed through issues of the day. They could accomplish the same goal by creating a powow (its a party of sorts that actually accomplished goals, the Lakota do this to this vary day).
The Electoral collage system is almost identical to that of the Iroquois "Great Council" minus a supreme ruler (president). The Iroquois functioned with one single chamber in its council. Benjamin Franklin proposed calling congress the "grand council". Naturally, the classy Greek theme the Southern United States was so infatuated with stuck. Simple things such as addressing a politician by his position instead of his name "Mr. Chairman" was also done by the Iroquois.
Again, the above information is just a few examples of what the indigenous people to the Americas gave the world. When you take into account what they received in turn, it pales in comparison.
When we look at history and view other conquered people we see successes and failures. Generally, a successful conquering of people involves (as stated by someone here previously) integration of that defeated society into the victors. You can see this countless times in the middle east with the religion of Islam. You can see this in examples such as the Goths sacking Rome. Integration, is not something the American Indians received. Instead, they were placed into closed states. A place where they are to slowly starve and die.
Today, hundreds of years later American Indians (in most of America) remain at the bottom of the food chain. As pointed out on the Lakota's website, many live a life of poverty despite the plentiful treaties and gifts they have been given by their conquerers. The Indian Church has been met with hostile actions by legal/religious organizations for attempting to integrate. No monuments or statues of any kind stand in Washington DC. They are a forgotten people that still exist and are still being handed the short end of the stick.
What do we do with situations like these? How do we tell the American Indians that despite their ancestors sacrifice, despite their current dismal situation, that they have to shut up and keep on living? Why do many conclude that there is no answer for situations as these? Why do so many more choose to ignore, lie complacent or outright despise situations like this? Money, is not the answer.
As a white American living next to several Indian reservations, I see the poverty that exists there. I have an inkling of their plight. I just wish, that more felt like doing something about it... Maybe, something simple, like, listen to them for once? Unfortunately, it took them declaring independence to get us to do just that.
Fun fact: The American Indians suffered the largest public hanging in US history.[/i]
Lets start with some thing simple... Food. Arguably, food of the Americas are not the gift of the American Indians. How could it be? The food grew naturally in the Americas, the Indians just learned to cultivate it. Ahh, Cultivation, where did we learn how to process and prepare many of our foods today? What better place than from those who know best. Interestingly many growing techniques far superior to any crop grown today are still ignored by the world. For instance, American Indians did not grow rows of crops as the Europeans were accustomed to. They would grow food in odd shape mounds. Sometimes hundreds of small mounds depending on the size of the population. These mounds do not erode or lose their nutrients unlike our own crops today. This practice not only avoided a potentially catastrophic environmental issue (Great American Dust Bowl... all of Africa) it provided a stable food supply. There was no over grazing or forests being clear cut to plant a new farm in better soil.
Lets examine the types of foods we eat today that the American Indians taught us how to grow and cultivate (over 300 crops). Many of these foods have now become the staple of countless countries that without these foods, would have never became what they are today. The potato (no, the Irish imported the potato from South America. Corn, "wild rice", sunflower (Russia's greatest American plant), beans, squashes, American peanuts, countless spices and amaranth to name just a few.
Foods like chocolate, coffee, bubble gum or tapioca are of American origin. The amount of drugs and use of pharmaceuticalogy that they provided is truly staggering. Drugs like coca, tobacco, peyote and poppy all come from America. Cures and treatments for sicknesses and diseases such as scurvy, lockjaw or malaria come from the American Indians.
Now onto government. Remember, history is often written by the victors. In almost every North American nation that we have detailed political information, the supreme authority rested in the group rather than the individual, sounds familiar. There were no leaders, the concept of the "Indian Chief" did not exit among the Indians except when the old world demanded that they deal with one person. A great example would be the Creek Indians. One such appointed leader realized what the old world was up to. He successfully manipulated the great foreign powers into thinking he was working in their best interest all while turning his tribe into one of the wealthiest and most powerful in North America.
The League of the Iroquois were one of the the largest, most endearing nations. Composed of MANY other completely different Indian tribes. The Iroquois permitted a vote to allow new tribes to join as the USA permits new states (Congressional Resolution of 1780, Land Ordinances of 1784 and 1785 and the Northwest Ordinance). Many Indian tribes fleeing the persecution of the whites were admitted to the League of the Iroquois that very way.
According to Mr. Thomas Jefferson's associate Mr. Charles Thompson; of whom wrote a very detailed account on the American Indians social and political institutions. This was included in Thomas Jefferson's "Notes on the state of Virginia". Thompson stated that each Indian town built a council house for making local decisions as well as electing tribal delegates to the tribal council. That tribal council elected delegates to the national council. This was written YEARS before the constitution of the united states.
The Indian's that Thomson studied had to lay down their civil office if they had to go to war. That leader could not act as both warrior and leader. Better yet, if the conduct of one of these leaders appeared improper to the populous the women of his clan could vote to impeach him. This concept was still unheard of in Europe at the time. A leader would rule until death even if he or she was incapacitated.
The caucus (Algonquian word not lain) permits informal discussion of an issue without requiring a yay or nay vote. This is exactly how the American Indians discussed through issues of the day. They could accomplish the same goal by creating a powow (its a party of sorts that actually accomplished goals, the Lakota do this to this vary day).
The Electoral collage system is almost identical to that of the Iroquois "Great Council" minus a supreme ruler (president). The Iroquois functioned with one single chamber in its council. Benjamin Franklin proposed calling congress the "grand council". Naturally, the classy Greek theme the Southern United States was so infatuated with stuck. Simple things such as addressing a politician by his position instead of his name "Mr. Chairman" was also done by the Iroquois.
Again, the above information is just a few examples of what the indigenous people to the Americas gave the world. When you take into account what they received in turn, it pales in comparison.
When we look at history and view other conquered people we see successes and failures. Generally, a successful conquering of people involves (as stated by someone here previously) integration of that defeated society into the victors. You can see this countless times in the middle east with the religion of Islam. You can see this in examples such as the Goths sacking Rome. Integration, is not something the American Indians received. Instead, they were placed into closed states. A place where they are to slowly starve and die.
Today, hundreds of years later American Indians (in most of America) remain at the bottom of the food chain. As pointed out on the Lakota's website, many live a life of poverty despite the plentiful treaties and gifts they have been given by their conquerers. The Indian Church has been met with hostile actions by legal/religious organizations for attempting to integrate. No monuments or statues of any kind stand in Washington DC. They are a forgotten people that still exist and are still being handed the short end of the stick.
What do we do with situations like these? How do we tell the American Indians that despite their ancestors sacrifice, despite their current dismal situation, that they have to shut up and keep on living? Why do many conclude that there is no answer for situations as these? Why do so many more choose to ignore, lie complacent or outright despise situations like this? Money, is not the answer.
As a white American living next to several Indian reservations, I see the poverty that exists there. I have an inkling of their plight. I just wish, that more felt like doing something about it... Maybe, something simple, like, listen to them for once? Unfortunately, it took them declaring independence to get us to do just that.
Fun fact: The American Indians suffered the largest public hanging in US history.[/i]
Mord_Sith
Mildly Dipped
Well ain't it just grand, here's a breakdown then:
If the 'mounds' are not used then why do you consider it an agricultural gift, they aren't using it, they're sticking to rows, making it a moot point really.
Ok so we watched what they ate and discovered what was edible, 10 billion for that knowledge, we're down to 1160 billion to go.
Poppies, you have got to be joking, those were all over the damn world long before the colonization period, and most of that is South American, it has nothing to do with the plight against the North American Indians versus the evil colonizing Brits!
Here's a well known cure for scurvy, PINE NEEDLES, or another ORANGES, anything with vitamin C, quite well known, problem is that the ships couldn't stock it because it would go bad a few days into the voyage, not because they were blatantly stupid to what their bodies needed (the captains that is).
How the hell would the Natives know how to cure something that DOESN'T EXIST in North America (talking about Malaria) it affects equatorial regions mostly and I quote wikipedia:
This has NO bearing on North American Indians whatsoever, please keep the scope to where it belongs pretty please?
There is little information I can garner about Lockjaw, could you please cite your sources on this information?
As for government, didn't BN point out some glaringly obvious comparisons earlier between the American government and several other forms of government that were budding at the time, also the past form of government that it is named after?
Ok so let's assume that what you've said is correct, and they've leeched wholesale from the indians rather than from what they consider their peers in intelligence, I'd garner about another 30 billion to be generous, we're still at 1130 billion dollars that have been handed out since the late 1500s
They are at the bottom of the food chain because they are self perpetuating it, those that actually integrate with society (and are given AMPLE ability to do so, especially in the government sectors where they will be considered over more qualified applicants at times) are living normal lives and are making something of themselves. Those that insist on living on the reservations pretending that it holds some kind of cultural significance are the ones that are suffering.
I will quote you now:
So you just admit that it's their own damn fault for the mess they're in, not the fault of those that have been forced to bear them on their backs for over 4 centuries?
However the hostilities against the churches for some strange reason I can see happening, at least in America, and some parts of Canada, because most of the population is still Christian and a lot of people consider them to be Christian even though they may not be.
The answer is for them to put up or shut up, forgive the crassness of that point but it's true, it's about damn time they left the nest and walked on their own two feet, however I don't think that the Lakotas are going to pull it off for two reasons, the US has no reason to let it exist, and in recent history they have proven that it takes little more than a speck of fantasy to get them to march to war.
As for Poverty, don't effing talk like you know poverty, seeing it is significantly different from experiencing it, I tell you right now if you have never went 2 weeks without food you don't know poverty, if you haven't had to live with handmedowns for gifts for most occasions, you don't know poverty.
My Father busted is ass to try and put food on the table, and no matter what it was we ate it because we had nothing else, it was either that or starve, we could only afford one car and my mother couldn't work. Yet right across the street was some child farmer who got to sit on her ass because she had 5 kids and no damn pride.
You don't know poverty, you live in your ivory towers and sneer at those who have the gall to say differently from the politically correct, I can't make you live in my shoes, but I can sure as hell debunk you as best as I can.
If the 'mounds' are not used then why do you consider it an agricultural gift, they aren't using it, they're sticking to rows, making it a moot point really.
Ok so we watched what they ate and discovered what was edible, 10 billion for that knowledge, we're down to 1160 billion to go.
Poppies, you have got to be joking, those were all over the damn world long before the colonization period, and most of that is South American, it has nothing to do with the plight against the North American Indians versus the evil colonizing Brits!
Here's a well known cure for scurvy, PINE NEEDLES, or another ORANGES, anything with vitamin C, quite well known, problem is that the ships couldn't stock it because it would go bad a few days into the voyage, not because they were blatantly stupid to what their bodies needed (the captains that is).
How the hell would the Natives know how to cure something that DOESN'T EXIST in North America (talking about Malaria) it affects equatorial regions mostly and I quote wikipedia:
This has NO bearing on North American Indians whatsoever, please keep the scope to where it belongs pretty please?
There is little information I can garner about Lockjaw, could you please cite your sources on this information?
As for government, didn't BN point out some glaringly obvious comparisons earlier between the American government and several other forms of government that were budding at the time, also the past form of government that it is named after?
Ok so let's assume that what you've said is correct, and they've leeched wholesale from the indians rather than from what they consider their peers in intelligence, I'd garner about another 30 billion to be generous, we're still at 1130 billion dollars that have been handed out since the late 1500s
They are at the bottom of the food chain because they are self perpetuating it, those that actually integrate with society (and are given AMPLE ability to do so, especially in the government sectors where they will be considered over more qualified applicants at times) are living normal lives and are making something of themselves. Those that insist on living on the reservations pretending that it holds some kind of cultural significance are the ones that are suffering.
I will quote you now:
So you just admit that it's their own damn fault for the mess they're in, not the fault of those that have been forced to bear them on their backs for over 4 centuries?
However the hostilities against the churches for some strange reason I can see happening, at least in America, and some parts of Canada, because most of the population is still Christian and a lot of people consider them to be Christian even though they may not be.
The answer is for them to put up or shut up, forgive the crassness of that point but it's true, it's about damn time they left the nest and walked on their own two feet, however I don't think that the Lakotas are going to pull it off for two reasons, the US has no reason to let it exist, and in recent history they have proven that it takes little more than a speck of fantasy to get them to march to war.
As for Poverty, don't effing talk like you know poverty, seeing it is significantly different from experiencing it, I tell you right now if you have never went 2 weeks without food you don't know poverty, if you haven't had to live with handmedowns for gifts for most occasions, you don't know poverty.
My Father busted is ass to try and put food on the table, and no matter what it was we ate it because we had nothing else, it was either that or starve, we could only afford one car and my mother couldn't work. Yet right across the street was some child farmer who got to sit on her ass because she had 5 kids and no damn pride.
You don't know poverty, you live in your ivory towers and sneer at those who have the gall to say differently from the politically correct, I can't make you live in my shoes, but I can sure as hell debunk you as best as I can.
Well then how about words from someone who has lived in poverty.
why do you hate indians so much?
racist much?
do you honestly think that we can put a mere 10 billion dollars of monetary value on the idea of crop cultivation?
its one of the most significant discoveries in the history of the world, and america would likely have not even succeeded as a nation without. Have you ever been on an Indian reservation before?
why do you hate indians so much?
racist much?
do you honestly think that we can put a mere 10 billion dollars of monetary value on the idea of crop cultivation?
its one of the most significant discoveries in the history of the world, and america would likely have not even succeeded as a nation without. Have you ever been on an Indian reservation before?
xdarkyrex said:
Forget crop cultivation, they invented the time machine and went back and handed the civilization advance of crop cultivation to prehistoric Egypt, China and Mesopotamia! I don't know how we'd manage today without the time machine. Indians: thank you.
Hmm, I worded that poorly, I meant their specific contributions, including crop rotation and certain types of fertilizers and crosspollination practices.
in any case-
http://www.canku-luta.org/PineRidge/laramie_treaty.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_people
I suppose my stance on this is a bit biased since more than 1/4th of my heritage is native american, (a mix of sioux and cheyenne, both large groups of the lakota)
in any case-
http://www.canku-luta.org/PineRidge/laramie_treaty.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_people
I suppose my stance on this is a bit biased since more than 1/4th of my heritage is native american, (a mix of sioux and cheyenne, both large groups of the lakota)
xdarkyrex said:
It was time someone pulled this card, and it's funny because the answer is so obvious
You're the racist, darkyre
All Mord Sith is asking is that we stop pretending the Indians deserve different treatment on the basis of race. All he is asking, in other words, is an end to racial segregation in America.
You claim the Indians deserve some kind of special treatment based on their race. That may be positive racism, it's still racism.
Stop being such a racist, darkyre. You may not believe it, but Indians are just people, like you and me.
Maphusio, that is one nonsensical post, because you're applying something to the Indians that I could well apply to many peoples. A lot of ancient people helped society advance to where it is today, I'm not going to sit around thanking all of them. Hey, Maphusio, have you sent your yearly cheque to help Iran yet? No? Don't you know how much we owe the Persians? See, it doesn't work.
I'm talking about his statements regarding how theyre all "lazy slobs and junkies". paraphrasing.
I dont believe in giving them subsidies, special treatment, or negative treatment, (as previously stated if you read the thread) how exactly am I racist?
Maybe you ought to read a bit about the history of this country before you make asinine statements about who did what to who.
The fact is that they own that land, but we are occupying it.
You defend the breaking of treaties, the abuse of an entire race and culture, and the theft of land, based on what exactly?
"it already happened, so get over it"?
Or is there some other, better reason, that I jsut cant seem to figure out?
fyi, this isnt some ancient thing that happened hundreds of years ago, this happened between the last 150 years and now, since this treaty was signed. alot of our transgressions and blatant abuse of the treaty are as old as only 40 years or less. And also, this is a process that has also been in the works for about 40 years, only now just coming into fruition.
I dont believe in giving them subsidies, special treatment, or negative treatment, (as previously stated if you read the thread) how exactly am I racist?
Maybe you ought to read a bit about the history of this country before you make asinine statements about who did what to who.
The fact is that they own that land, but we are occupying it.
You defend the breaking of treaties, the abuse of an entire race and culture, and the theft of land, based on what exactly?
"it already happened, so get over it"?
Or is there some other, better reason, that I jsut cant seem to figure out?
fyi, this isnt some ancient thing that happened hundreds of years ago, this happened between the last 150 years and now, since this treaty was signed. alot of our transgressions and blatant abuse of the treaty are as old as only 40 years or less. And also, this is a process that has also been in the works for about 40 years, only now just coming into fruition.
xdarkyrex said:
I'm sure you are. His choice of words nonwithstanding, whose chosen path in dealing with Indians seems less racist?
xdarkyrex said:
Well, simple question, what are you basing your opinion of how the US should treat these people on. Their (...)? (starts with r, ends with ace)
xdarkyrex said:
Sorry for hurting your feelings, here's a tissue.
xdarkyrex said:
What do you mean, based on what? What do you mean, ownership? Nothing works that way, not history, not international law, not even the most twisted of moralities. You can dig up old treaties on ownership on many situations, there are always active treaties on something. Do the Scots own their land and the right to secede? Can the Frisians legally secede from the Dutch and is the Dutch holding of their land illegal since there is no contract for it? Palistia-Israel, Pakistan-India.
There are situations like these all over the world. And at the end of they day you use two principles two figure out what one should do; if something works, don't change it, and do whatever is best for the people on the land. Countries seceding from the US isn't good for anyone (and, again, all secession is illegal, no matter what you think of treaties). Trying to enforce 150-year old treaties as if they supersede the rights of the people in whose lives that treaty would interfere (or would you argue any white man living on Indian ground is evil and needs to get out? You would, you racist)
The treaty is just a piece of paper, nothing more or less, just like the great red chief over there said
xdarkyrex said:
No, hang on, wait for it...
So what?
There are treaties being violated over the world that are younger than that. Why is this one any different? It isn't, except possibly to racists who can't get off his high horse.
Man, it's funny because I've always suspected but never seen in action that your massive guilt trip has removed all sense of proportion and reality for some Americans. It's funny how you actually think you have the moral high ground, though.
So let me get this right... if the abuse of the law happens by the government, people should seriously just stfu and get over it?
Because that seems to be your sentiment.
Am I wrong?
Oh, and my defense of them does not have to do even mostly with race, it has more to do with integrity, which is pretty important imho. And technically this is not a secession, as they are not a state and do not pay taxes, they are their own entityt wtih very limited rights.
Are you suggested I and others in this country just look the other way while very blatant and obvious abuse happens to these people?
As for "if something works, dont change it", one could argue the same thing about slavery or any other oppresive belief where the people getting the shaft are the minority. As for the people who live within that land who are not part of the lakota, they are not being kicked out.
Your rational absolutely amazes me "tons of government ignore their laws and the rights they have given people, therefor you should not care when this happens". That is what you're saying, right?
Appeal to common practice is a fallacy for a reason.
Because that seems to be your sentiment.
Am I wrong?
Oh, and my defense of them does not have to do even mostly with race, it has more to do with integrity, which is pretty important imho. And technically this is not a secession, as they are not a state and do not pay taxes, they are their own entityt wtih very limited rights.
Are you suggested I and others in this country just look the other way while very blatant and obvious abuse happens to these people?
As for "if something works, dont change it", one could argue the same thing about slavery or any other oppresive belief where the people getting the shaft are the minority. As for the people who live within that land who are not part of the lakota, they are not being kicked out.
Your rational absolutely amazes me "tons of government ignore their laws and the rights they have given people, therefor you should not care when this happens". That is what you're saying, right?
Appeal to common practice is a fallacy for a reason.
I don't mean to break in on the discussion, but the first thing that occurs to me is the number of interesting conversational parallels this "secession" holds with the arguments of many pro-Israelites I've talked with-- here we have an ailing and diminished body of people that hasn't truly functioned or in practice even existed as a nation for quite some time, suddenly reclaiming what they view to be their ancestral right in order to shore themselves up against their crappy lot in life. Just replace "broken treaties" with "Biblical mandate" and "armed conflict and international furor" with "no one seems to have given a shit yet and this probably isn't going anywhere." Oddly enough, most of the Israel-boosters I've talked to so far are markedly peevish about how stupid this whole Lakota thing is...
Just an observation, though. Sorry to interrupt.
Just an observation, though. Sorry to interrupt.