Legion Appreciation Thread

[Dr Fallout]

What sense does it make the hate on technology? Factories are good! Industrial production is great, farming tools etc. Technology is the very base of every production mean. Doesn't make any sense that posture as I see it. Roman Empire wasn't like this.

Mr. House makes a lot of sense, NCR as well. Caesar might be all lawfull and shit on his personality, and his empire is a caricature of this, but his ideas are chaotic in the end man, almost all of them. Rare are the moments where the Legion actually makes some sense lol, and you have to dig quite deeply to find them.

None, however note, these same great factories caused the lack of resources and the great war, leading to atomic destruction. Caesar knows his history, so I guess he understands that technology can betray you. Nuclear power can lead nukes, leading to world destruction. On the other hand I doubt healing powder can cause that. His view is that self reliance and reliance on natural techniques and stuff easily gotten is better then trying to build a factory to take advantage of the remaining resources that will run out. Then again, who knows what Caesar would do after victory.

Boring, boring, interesting! Actually their technology hate, makes sense if you look at it further. Most don't. You just see 'hates technology' and stop. I keep reading and find some reasons why.

 

[Ninja]

A) Love Technology
X) Hate Technology
B) Technology (Sarcastic)
Y) Technology?

 

[Izak]

My interpretation was that the Legion didn't use any technology they couldn't easily reproduce (except for important operations, seeing as how Centurions use Anti-material rifles, but not everything a faction does has to line up with their ideology so... eh), doesn't Caesar explain that the NCR and BoS will run into serious problems when they run out of tech to scavenge for and tools to repair said tech with? Or did I imagine that?

 

[Vanguardbr]

None, however note, these same great factories caused the lack of resources and the great war, leading to atomic destruction. Caesar knows his history, so I guess he understands that technology can betray you. Nuclear power can lead nukes, leading to world destruction. On the other hand I doubt healing powder can cause that. His view is that self reliance and reliance on natural techniques and stuff easily gotten is better then trying to build a factory to take advantage of the remaining resources that will run out. Then again, who knows what Caesar would do after victory.

Boring, boring, interesting! Actually their technology hate, makes sense if you look at it further. Most don't. You just see 'hates technology' and stop. I keep reading and find some reasons why.

Actually, lack of resources came from Capitalism (consumerism as the factor that makes all this more evident), the way society uses these resources. Caesar failed history class. The problem are not the machines, its how and why man uses it. Technology can coexist with wise resource management, in fact, technology can help a lot when the subject is smart use of resources and transforming garbage in something useful.

Legion primitivism is a big fallacy. If something, this post nuclear war situation begs for more advanced technology, imagine planting something on that shit soil, cleaning water etc.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Actually, lack of resources came from Capitalism (consumerism as the factor that makes all this more evident), the way society uses these resources. Caesar failed history class. The problem are not the machines, its how and why man uses it. Technology can coexist with wise resource management, in fact, technology can help a lot when the subject is smart use of resources and transforming garbage in something useful.

Legion primitivism is a big fallacy.

Capitalism doesn't dictate how you use your resources, over consumption does. The machines are the biggest aspect. They need lot's of resources to produce and keep working. The whole point was getting energy to RUN the MACHINES. So it is their fault. Without them, Humans wouldn't be able to use as much resources to power their life. Oh it can, but to so it has to use less resources.

So no, it isn't.

 

[Vanguardbr]

Capitalism doesn't dictate how you use your resources, over consumption does. The machines are the biggest aspect. They need lot's of resources to produce and keep working. The whole point was getting energy to RUN the MACHINES. So it is their fault. Without them, Humans wouldn't be able to use as much resources to power their life. Oh it can, but to so it has to use less resources.

So no, it isn't.

Actually it does, this whole profit pursuit thing. Consumerism is nothing more then a consequence of this when you think about it. Companies actively pursuit new ways to sell more (thus produce more), the whole marketing brainwash thing etc.

The problem is not the car in itself, the problem is that car industries needs to keep high profit, thus collective transport is obviously not going to be the main thing in big cities, although resource wise its a better option then to have private vehicles as the main thing. As a consequence, cars everywhere, oil consuption skyrockets = shit is going to happen. This logic applies to many other areas, not only transport. Capitalism is not really rational over some aspects when you think about it, because of this whole profit and accumulation idea imo.

The problem is not the technology in itself, but what the society makes out of this technology. You see, a engine is a great invention, now if you are going to make a war machine or a bus with it, its up to the society you live in and its needs.

My point is, war wasn't caused by machines, but by economics and politics. You see, its a fallacy to blame technology. The war was caused by the intentions of that society, not its technology. Technology just allowed wasteland come to life!

 

[Dr Fallout]

Actually it does, this whole profit pursuit thing. Consumerism is nothing more then a consequence of this when you think about it. Companies actively pursuit new ways to sell more (thus produce more), the whole marketing brainwash thing etc.

The problem is not the car in itself, the problem is that car industries needs to keep high profit, thus collective transport is obviously not going to be the main thing in big cities, although resource wise its a better option then to have private vehicles as the main thing. As a consequence, cars everywhere, oil consuption skyrockets = shit is going to happen. This logic applies to many other areas, not only transport. Capitalism is not really rational over some aspects when you think about it, because of this whole profit and accumulation idea imo.

The problem is not the technology in itself, but what the society makes out of this technology. You see, a engine is a great invention, now if you are going to make a war machine or a bus with it, its up to the society you live in and its needs.

My point is, war wasn't caused by machines, but by economics and politics. You see, its a fallacy to blame technology, and doesn't make sense to hate it.

No it doesn't. 'an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.' You don't have to be a resource squandering son of a bitch to be capitalist. Though I admit, it sure helps.

In the end, they needed resources to power the MACHINES that made the cars. Oh and to power the cars. They only needed tons of resources to power their products, which are power guzzling so technology has a large part of the blame here.

They don't actually hate it, but I refer as they do to simplify things. Everyone that hates the legion says they hate technology. You realise energy squandering wouldn't have happened if we didn't use technology that used lots of energy?

 

[Izak]

The lack of resources definitely didn't sprout from capitalism considering communist China had the exact same problems.

 

[Vanguardbr]

No it doesn't. 'an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.' You don't have to be a resource squandering son of a bitch to be capitalist. Though I admit, it sure helps.

In the end, they needed resources to power the MACHINES that made the cars. Oh and to power the cars. They only needed tons of resources to power their products, which are power guzzling so technology has a large part of the blame here.

They don't actually hate it, but I refer as they do to simplify things. Everyone that hates the legion says they hate technology. You realise energy squandering wouldn't have happened if we didn't use technology that used lots of energy?

Could the great war be avoided? In the end the resources crisis resulted in nuclear war. Whatever was happening in that Capitalism scenario, it went badly wrong. I still don't buy the guilt of the machines in all this, its a political-economical and geopolitical kind of problem.

The lack of resources definitely didn't sprout from capitalism considering communist China had the exact same problems.

Except communist China was never really communist, thats another big fallacy. Communism would be the opposite of capitalism in so many ways its not even funny, China was always blantly capitalism dressed up as a commie. That explain why they have capitalism problems. You see, capitalism and this messed up socialism were never really enemies, they actually served each other quite well when you think about having a outside enemy to keep integrity home. "Communists" were the big excuse for a military dictatorship here in Brazil, that favored the US greatly and fucked big time the hope some people had for a more independent economy, for example.

US and capitalism were used the same way by the URSS and China, nowadays North Korea etc.

One can say that Fallout is exactly about this, what if this opposition was real? What if China was REALLY communist and thus, USA was really a threat to all that? Then it doesn't make sense China having the same problems as USA, because real communism is something completely different. So China in Fallout lore is probably the same China we have today, Capitalism.

They don't actually hate it, but I refer as they do to simplify things. Everyone that hates the legion says they hate technology. You realise energy squandering wouldn't have happened if we didn't use technology that used lots of energy?

You can say that the machines caused all the need for so much resource that ended up in nuclear war, but one thing is this machine that was used to drain resources like fuck, other completely different thing is the technology behind this machine and what it could be used for. No sense in denying it. Its a fallacy because technology can be used in many ways, and there is much to learn from them and how they work.

 

[Dr Fallout]

USSR, not URSS.

Also the capitalist Chinese happened later, after Mao's death. Before it was NOT communism. Everything was owned by the state, which goes against capitalism which relies on private businesses.

You can say that the machines caused all the need for so much resource that ended up in nuclear war, but one thing is this machine that was used to drain resources like fuck, other completely different thing is the technology behind this machine and what it could be used for. No sense in denying it. Its a fallacy because technology can be used in many ways, and there is much to learn from them and how they work.

Yes, if we stayed with the technology of the 16th century we would have missed out MANY good things, but at the same time the world would have lasted ridiculously longer due to loads of resources and less exploitation of it. Oh agreed, but without technology the Great War wouldn't have happened and the resource abuse would have never happened either. It's fallacy ignoring that fact and harking on how technology helps us (which it has), sad thing is it also causes suffering. It's a double edged sword that Caesar wants to limit.

Your entire argument only makes sense if technology didn't cause the great war and energy scarcity which it did.

 

[Vanguardbr]

USSR, not URSS.

Also the capitalist Chinese happened later, after Mao's death. Before it was NOT communism. Everything was owned by the state, which goes against capitalism which relies on private businesses.



Yes, if we stayed with the technology of the 16th century we would have missed out MANY good things, but at the same time the world would have lasted ridiculously longer due to loads of resources and less exploitation of it. Oh agreed, but without technology the Great War wouldn't have happened and the resource abuse would have never happened either. It's fallacy ignoring that fact and harking on how technology helps us (which it has), sad thing is it also causes suffering. It's a double edged sword that Caesar wants to limit.

Your entire argument only makes sense if technology didn't cause the great war and energy scarcity which it did.

Fuck! URSS is in portuguese man hahhah

Whatever that mess was, ended up in capitalism anyways. That means they never actually started building something really different from it. It was more of a State Capitalism then anything, same in Fallout lore probably.

So, there is no real communism or not even a spark of it in Fallout lore as well, that leaves us with this State Capitalism thing that we all now how it goes.

And thats why we had the war in the first place, not because technology alone, the social economical system of that time had a very, very important role in all that mess.
Not to mention that a nuclear war is a critical failure in the diplomatic system as well. Remember that no one actually wins in a nuclear war, if resource was a problem, bombing everything is the solution? You see, in order to happen a nuclear war we need a lot of political stupidity, machines and technology alone are not capable of doing it, they only allow it to happen.

Or look at this kind of economical scenario as well: shitty economy beyond belief that the only exit is somehow a nuclear war, that would be a good idea because..? Whoever were the leaders of USA and China in Fallout lore were stupid as fuck. Not the machines or the technology, but humans fucking shit up with their broken economy and politics.

Caesar should be more worried about his social economical system then with technology, if he is really so concerned about humanity. And to be very honest, Legion looks even more broken then NCR, that puts them in the fancy raider category. The Great Khans are more charismatic.

 

[Izak]

Caesar is concerned with humanity, his entire philosophy is basically a LARPing version of 'tough love', he plans on introducing more laws when and if he takes the Mojave, he might even write a Bill of Rights (one that only applies to non-slaves but it's still something right?); basically the Legion isn't broken, it just hasn't left its infancy yet.

 

[DVL]

None, however note, these same great factories caused the lack of resources and the great war, leading to atomic destruction. Caesar knows his history, so I guess he understands that technology can betray you. Nuclear power can lead nukes, leading to world destruction. On the other hand I doubt healing powder can cause that. His view is that self reliance and reliance on natural techniques and stuff easily gotten is better then trying to build a factory to take advantage of the remaining resources that will run out. Then again, who knows what Caesar would do after victory.

Boring, boring, interesting! Actually their technology hate, makes sense if you look at it further. Most don't. You just see 'hates technology' and stop. I keep reading and find some reasons why.

It's also hard to abuse a water filter or a stimpacks to. That's not the point.
And to be utterly pedantic, there's some suggestion that healing powder is a powerful depressant because it brings a feeling of sleep to your head. (Hence the lost Perception.)
Refining and cultivating medicine out of plants and stuff would be a valid technology, except you really can't get the Legionary to get over his whole War on Drugs mentality. Presuming that the whole craft isn't the dominion of women anyway.

You don't get to opt out of the arduous task of being sapient by saying that you don't want to play. Knowledge eventually has potential for abuse, and for their part, The Legion doesn't seem particularly plussed by using dirty bomb style tactics on Camp Searchlight. If you refuse to learn then somebody else will just find some clever new way of kicking your teeth in anyway. If you refuse to learn, there's also no way of redressing the actual downsides of technology either.

I also might point out that Hoover Dam and solar panels are sustainable power sources within certain limits.
House's ultimate solution was simply to colonize space, or at least mine resources up there.

 

[Vergil]

Caesar's Legion isn't totally anti-technology. They just understand the importance of self reliance and using the new materials of the wasteland to create their own medicines instead of using a finite supply of pre-war medicines. Only the best of the Legion get to use advanced tech because they're smart and trusted enough to be able to handle it. Your average Legionary can handle the operation and upkeep of a Machete and a hunting rifle but not the complex engineering of a Power Fist or Thermic Lance. I believe it's one of the Followers of the Apocalypse who mention that the supply of Stimpacks is starting to run out showing how much of a finite resource they are.

 

[Atlas]

While it is a bit... old fashioned, I can see where Caesar could be coming from with the "No drugs, no Technology" rules he set upon his Legion. Caesar has built his entire empire up based on the old Roman system of government, and in this regard I think he takes it very seriously. Rome had none of the technological advantages of the modern day wasteland, yet even still they not only ruled as an Empire, but thrived as one too.

I don't know as much about the Legion as I'd like too, but what if Caesar wants to rebuild not only the society, but build his own technologies as well? As others have already pointed out, there are only so many drugs left in the wasteland, and creating more takes time and resources that just aren't available enough yet to satisfy the demand? While the majority of people are struggling to find meds, Caesar's Legion is starting to make their own and, in the future, who's to say they won't end up creating new, Wasteland born drugs that can once more be made in bulk?

Building up New World technology instead of relying on the old(ALA the Roman Aqueducts), creating medicines and drugs that can be more easily made with what the Wasteland already has readily available. The only negative about this vision is that without Caesar on the throne, this vision of the Legion would likely crumble just as readily as the Legion itself would.

As for how they treat their women, all I can say on that is that not all women in the Legion are slaves. Don't quote me on this but I recall reading somewhere that, in the Legion homeland, some women are Legion Priestesses; holy figures that command respect and power to those who receive their services. While this isn't the Gender Equality that should be common practice in the Wastes, it shows that women can indeed live in the Legion without having to work themselves into an early grave.

I still disagree with how the Legion operates, and am a firm believer that without Caesar at the helm the Legion would dissolve back into warring tribes, but I think I can understand their goals and motives and can even respect Caesar for what he's trying to accomplish. It's just that the system he set into place is doomed to fail.

 

[Vanguardbr]

Caesar's Legion isn't totally anti-technology. They just understand the importance of self reliance and using the new materials of the wasteland to create their own medicines instead of using a finite supply of pre-war medicines.

Yes this makes sense, but medicine is not the only kind of cricial technology so, what is the Legion opinion about, say, factories? Mass productuion of something. How about agricultural technologies? Computers? Robots.. What would the Legion do with the Big MT. for example?

This is why I think their posture with technology can be pretty bad, because they could destroy amazing shit that would help a lot of people if used with the right intentions.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Whatever that mess was, ended up in capitalism anyways. That means they never actually started building something really different from it. It was more of a State Capitalism then anything, same in Fallout lore probably.

So, there is no real communism or not even a spark of it in Fallout lore as well, that leaves us with this State Capitalism thing that we all now how it goes.

You don't even know that capitalism is do you? 'an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.' Communism is not capitalism, as the state controls everything and they're not doing it for profit. If they did, hospitals wouldn't be free.

It's also hard to abuse a water filter or a stimpacks to. That's not the point.

1. Who says they hate water filters? 2. Stimpaks are running out. Plants and cloth aren't.

Or look at this kind of economical scenario as well: shitty economy beyond belief that the only exit is somehow a nuclear war, that would be a good idea because..? Whoever were the leaders of USA and China in Fallout lore were stupid as fuck. Not the machines or the technology, but humans fucking shit up with their broken economy and politics.

Shitty economy from using too much resources to feed their MACHINES to keep producing and running. Humans caused the great war, TECHNOLOGY allowed it to happen.

Also, another fallacy with the opposition argument is that Caesar will stay the same, even when he implies to change the Legion after taking Vegas, hence there could be massive reforms or not. It's too much of an assumption on our side to assume it will be good. Hence this argument is baseless again, because we have nothing really to go on, apart from his military (which should never represent a country or nation).

 

[DVL]

1. Who says they hate water filters? 2. Stimpaks are running out. Plants and cloth aren't.)

It'd be nice if you didn't ignore the wider context of everything I just said.

Also, it's been canon that the ingredients for healing powder are also the active ingredients of stimpacks. The precedent exists in FO2 (Myron) and in New Vegas crafting. But that's a tangent at best.

 

[Dr Fallout]

It'd be nice if you didn't ignore the wider context of everything I just said.
Also, it's been canon that the ingredients for healing powder are essentially the active ingredients of stimpacks. The precedent exists in FO2 and in NV proper.
Old World Blues was silly like that. The Biological Research Station let you churn out more stimpacks than you actually needed as long as you had the Science score.

Cough, cough. Coming from you? But I digress, here if it makes you feel better. However stimpaks require more refinement and glass casings rather then cloth. Yeah Old World Blues is... well I don't take all of it too canon, because otherwise all problems in the wasteland would disappear. It's too strong of a easy way out.

And to be utterly pedantic, there's some suggestion that healing powder is a powerful depressant because it brings a feeling of sleep to your head. (Hence the lost Perception.)
Refining and cultivating medicine out of plants and stuff would be a valid technology, except you really can't get the Legionary to get over his whole War on Drugs mentality. Presuming that the whole craft isn't the dominion of women anyway.

Which is good for surgery and mitigating pain. I think it's more of a war on synthetic drugs, drugs that can't be made easily or commonly. They don't specifically say they hate drugs. In fact... where does the whole technology hate come from? They don't exactly say so.

You don't get to opt out of the arduous task of being sapient by saying that you don't want to play. Knowledge eventually has potential for abuse, and for their part, The Legion doesn't seem particularly plussed by using dirty bomb style tactics on Camp Searchlight. If you refuse to learn then somebody else will just find some clever new way of kicking your teeth in anyway. If you refuse to learn, there's also no way of redressing the actual downsides of technology either.

They use whatever necessary for victory, no matter what. No rules in warfare. Like the NCR, but less bullshitty about it. Where do they refuse to learn? I mean sure they don't use the advanced tech of the Brotherhood and NCR but they don't seem all hateful on tech. They use artillery and they don't mind. Again, they might change their ways after their victory.

I also might point out that Hoover Dam and solar panels are sustainable power sources within certain limits.
House's ultimate solution was simply to colonize space, or at least mine resources up there.

To a certain limit, they wouldn't be able to power a massive empire. Yeah... that would work...

 

[Doomfullord]

I still personally think Caesar just limits their technology and medicine so he can have more control over them. It's very evident when you look at him and his guard. He gets to personally have probably their most advanced weapon, a displacer glove and his guards get a semi-advanced fire-arm, ballistic fist.

Caesar also then is allowed to have an auto-doc, far more technological and medicinal than anything anyone else in the legion has. He even uses it as a means of gifting people medicine, so he has something over them.
"Makes for a powerful gift, in a culture that forbids painkillers and is largely ignorant of medical science."

Then if you tell him he should use House's tech to win, "You don't get it, do you? The weapons I wield are forged from blood, flesh, sinew, bone - mortal stuff. Fragile, even. And yet my Legion obeys me, even unto death. Why? Because they live to serve the greater good, and they know of no alternatives. House's machines, his technologies - what do they propose? The possibility of victory without sacrifice. No blood spilled, just... rivets. That's not an idea to be put in circulation. If mankind's going to survive this moment in history, it needs warriors, not gadgets."

Part of what he says is interesting, to make victory in your own, mortal hands. But as well, his legion has to do it by their own hands, they have no technology to do it for them and they don't even know of it. They obey Caesar because "they know of no alternatives." A culture of self-reliance, obediance, and hard labor. You do what you must for the greater good because Caesar wants us to be reliant on ourselves, but reliant on him for orders. It's very much a means of creating a dictatorship that will obey and never know to rebel.