Legion Appreciation Thread

[Practicat]

The exact details of the NCR's and the Khans' roles in the Bitter Springs Massacre are unclear, given what is presented, in game and in the graphic novel All Roads. Characters, including Bitter Root, Boone, and Chance present varying accounts of the incident, each of which don't corroborate the others.

Here's a quote from one of Josh's responses on his Tumblr page that I found poignant: "In the context of F:NV, I don’t think Caesar and the Legion need to be thought of as “grey” like the player’s other options. I think they can be what they are, as they are, because the lie of their fiction is intended to provoke thoughts about truth, i.e. the nature of humans who rise to power in such circumstances. When we say “war never changes”, we’re talking about things like this."

Take it as you want, but it is noteworthy to me that he says "I don’t think Caesar and the Legion need to be thought of as “grey” like the player’s other options."

 

[DVL]

Now we see hypocrisy. You state that the lack of evidence with Caesar killing Lanius means it doesn't matter, ignoring that many of your arguments are baseless assumptions.

It doesn't matter because the burden of proof is on you. I don't have to disprove a ridiculous made up claim that has no evidence for it.
This isn't nearly as controversial as saying, "The Legion is an authoritarian government where the military hierarchy holds all the power."

In fact due to the limited timeline the entire argument on the Legion is based on assumptions, with the biggest in my opinion is 'The Legion's military aspect= the Legion's civilian aspect' This is inherently flawed reasoning, as the military aspect of pretty much all nations, countries and empires are different to the civilian areas and life. You're reasoning is used by many people in the Middle East, who assume that the Americans/Russians/West are decadent, corrupt and evil BECAUSE THEY WERE BOMBED by them. The UN is tainted in the eyes of locals because some of their men raped girls, and this causes distrust and hate. The Nazis, while still an oppressive dictatorship didn't go around killing entire towns of Germans because they could (one of the 'Legion are evil' argument was based on the assumption that the Legion went around killing, raping and doing whatever they pleased whenever they wanted to), however this was widespread on their front lines.

Yeahhhh. You're arguing that the Legion is misunderstood. You're seriously arguing that there is some special exception to how these mythological civilians behave versus how Legionaries are expected to behave.

They consider slavery an acceptable spoil of war. But that rule evidently doesn't apply to the rest of Legion territory. So we can't actually say that it's common practice there, even though everybody with political power you can meet in the Legion is completely fine with it. That's some serious mental gymnastics there. Who else are they selling to slaves to?

But fine, let's not talk about the citizens. Let's say there's maybe a town or two that doesn't actively buy slaves or use them. My hatred isn't directed at them, but the actual people who run things. (The Legion. Not its subjects.)

Hence we have no real knowledge of how civilian life is, and we cannot use their soldiers as a great example because in real life, the army acts differently in war time.

Actually, now we do. (See above.)
The army is full time. "Citizens" are just whoever Caesar couldn't be bothered to enslave.

 

[DVL]

Those women at the Fort are all slaves, not citizens. I'm never claimed that the Legion has equal rights for women, just that not all women are slaves. I'm sure theres plenty of "sexism" in the Legion.

Fair enough.

Caesar's choice to continue using slavery could be due to many reasons but they are all speculation as he never outright says exactly why. It could be that he merely saw the pragmatism in the use of forced labour or he just really wants to larp as Rome to full capacity.

Both the Dead Horses and Sorrows aren't accustomed to fighting at all and don't practice slavery. (Same with Arroyo tribals in FO2). This isn't proof that all tribals are like this. The White Legs and the 88's definitely are the pillaging sort. But that goes to show that it can hardly be called a institution between tribals when their cultures are disparate.

As already given, Caesar was a Follower of the Apocalypse and was from NCR territory.
It is far gone unlikely that The Rangers would ever tolerate slavery when they're such a major part of the NCR's military forces and their original purpose in FO2 was explicitly to combat slavers.

There really is no reasonable interpretation that allows for the idea that Caesar is continuing slavery. Who'd he get it from? NCR? The Followers? Those tribal chaps who liked breeding hounds out of Denver? The Twisted Hairs?

 

[Dr Fallout]

Yeahhhh. You're arguing that the Legion is misunderstood. You're seriously arguing that there is some special exception to how these mythological civilians behave versus how Legionaries are expected to behave.

They consider slavery an acceptable spoil of war. But that rule evidently doesn't apply to the rest of Legion territory. So we can't actually say that it's common practice there, even though everybody with political power you can meet in the Legion is completely fine with it. That's some serious mental gymnastics there. Who else are they selling to slaves to?

To an extent yes I am. Yes! Because it happens EVERYWHERE, EVERY TIME in our history! So you know, it's not that much of an impossibility.

I am not, repeat NOT arguing that they don't have slavery elsewhere. I have not said that so stop making strawmen and responses to an argument I have not done in that post. Hence your whole paragraph on that is... pointless I guess.

Also, slavery does not equal=barbarian cultures. The Americans did it, the British did it, the Romans did and so many others did it.

 

[Ninja]

I'm confused, what are you guys even arguing about again?

 

[DVL]

Okay, fine, the subjects aren't necessarily misogynists or necessarily slavers. Very likely, but not given. I'll grant you that.

But the Legion are barbaric for a given value of barbaric.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Okay, fine, the subjects aren't necessarily misogynists or necessarily slavers. Very likely, but not given. I'll grant you that.

But the Legion are barbaric for a given value of barbaric.

I agree, the Legion are barbaric. But that is subjective. Also it does not mean they are bad rulers, or have bad ideas. In a way, a Barbarian is just a foreigner.

 

[DVL]

I agree, the Legion are barbaric. But that is subjective. Also it does not mean they are bad rulers, or have bad ideas. In a way, a Barbarian is just a foreigner.

Only if you don't think fascism, slavery and misogyny aren't bad.
My dispute was never that they were ineffective.
I would also disagree about Caesar. He could do better.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Only if you don't think fascism, slavery and misogyny aren't bad.
My dispute was never that they were ineffective.

Ah, but you ignore their other ideas such as a reliance on self, not technology. They're beliefs on drugs and hypocrisy.

Also fascism is... interesting. It's not inherently bad, but it has been handled by bad people such as Hitler who added way too much racism, anti-semitism and hatred of Slavs and communists into it. Mussolini joined the losing side in that regard.

 

[DVL]

Ah, but you ignore their other ideas such as a reliance on self, not technology. They're beliefs on drugs and hypocrisy.

We've been over this. This is roughly the logic that the War of Drugs and the Patriot Act operates on. It's unnecessary and ineffective. It's moralism of the worst sort.
A populace that is incapable of dissent or critical thought isn't actually all that self-reliant.

Also fascism is... interesting. It's not inherently bad, but it has been handled by bad people such as Hitler who added way too much racism, anti-semitism and hatred of Slavs and communists into it. Mussolini joined the losing side in that regard.

Again, if Caesar just decided to make some sort of constitutional monarchy or some parliamentary government where women are equals and he just happened to be emperor, I wouldn't have nearly the problems with him that I do.
Hell, even an unbounded monarch that wasn't way too into slavery and patriarchy would be just fine.

 

[Vanguardbr]

The thing is, by what the Legion does and how they behave in New Vegas, I just have to kill all of them. I don't really care about how their homeland is, what I know is that their ocupation is terrible, their moral values seems to be horrible and whatever comes from there is really not going to be nice. This doesn't mean that NCR is good, but its obviously better. This seems to be the consensus over New Vegas population as far as I remember.

NCR soldiers are nice with you usually, legion soldiers thinks that degenerates like you belongs in a cross! Wtf man, imagine you are a goodsprings citizen and you hear this kind of shit.

 

[Izak]

The thing is, by what the Legion does and how they behave in New Vegas, I just have to kill all of them. I don't really care about how their homeland is, what I know is that their occupation is terrible, their moral values seems to be horrible and whatever comes from there is really not going to be nice. This doesn't mean that NCR is good, but it's obviously better. This seems to be the consensus over New Vegas population as far as I remember.

The New Vegas population is almost entirely made up of NCR citizens and criminals that will likely be persecuted by the Legion, they're opinions while not worthless, are probably made up from patriotism and fear.

NCR soldiers are nice with you usually, legion soldiers thinks that degenerates like you belongs in a cross! Wtf man, imagine you are a goodsprings citizen and you hear this kind of shit.

The Legion is quite nice to you if you have a solid reputation, I believe the soldiers call you the Latin word for 'Ally' or 'Friend' if you have a liked or higher reputation.

And to all the people arguing about the Legion ideology and morality: don't forget that Caesar plans on making huge changes to the Legions policies upon taking Vegas; all your arguments could be completely worthless based on the fact that if Caesar was/is to succeed in taking the dam, the Legion could become unrecognizable.

 

[Vanguardbr]

The New Vegas population is almost entirely made up of NCR citizens and criminals that will likely be persecuted by the Legion, they're opinions while not worthless, are probably made up from patriotism and fear.
The Legion is quite nice to you if you have a solid reputation, I believe the soldiers call you the Latin word for 'Ally' or 'Friend' if you have a liked or higher reputation.

And to all the people arguing about the Legion ideology and morality: don't forget that Caesar plans on making huge changes to the Legions policies upon taking Vegas; all your arguments could be completely worthless based on the fact that if Caesar was/is to succeed in taking the dam, the Legion could become unrecognizable.

I don't really see the population of New Vegas same way you see it. Goodsprings is full of nice people, when you get to know Novac and Primm as well, the first is under NCR rule but thats because the Legion imposes that; guys in Primm when they ask you to bring law, they don't even mention the Legion, and that knowing that NCR is shit with taxes and all that. In Freeside people don't really bother with the Legion, or at least I don't remember, but if the Legion had the same influence NCR has, you bet people would bitch about the Legion.

Thats because you see, no one wants to be Caesar's peasant. It brings safety and other stuff, but you have to blindly accept what a man says. Its HIS empire, everyone is nothing but tools on his hand.

NCR can be different, it could be even socialist if you think about it! NCR social economical system opens many more political outcomes. This glimpse of hope alone makes the NCR better then the Legion in my opinion.

Also, Legion primitivism scares a lot of people and its trully unecessary and even kinda stupid when you think about it. One of the main reasons they should be exterminated, aside with fucked up reality conception. Why the hell stop economy like that? Factories are even more useful in the wasteland! There should be technology everywhere, its so important it should become a common good among people.. The way Caesar treats it?

He is a big joke. In the end people know this, thats why almost everyone in the Mojave is against the Legion (supposing I remember things clearly).

 

[Izak]

If you do a Legion playthrough (and side with Goodsprings during the powder ganger fight) then Goodsprings is left alone, Primm is annexed by the Legion, but Legionnaires don't go around crucifying folks they just kinda leave them alone and, finally Novac is attacked as an NCR settlement but it's not like NCR did Novac any good, the Novac water source is irradiated, they have a ghoul infestation and, only three men to defend them (3 men who aren't even in the NCR military).
Have to agree about the peasant thing but we're not sure what Caesars planned reforms are, the Legion could end up resembling pre-dictatorship Rome for all we know, I doubt it but still, who knows?

 

[Vanguardbr]

If you do a Legion playthrough (and side with Goodsprings during the powder ganger fight) then Goodsprings is left alone, Primm is annexed by the Legion, but Legionnaires don't go around crucifying folks they just kinda leave them alone and, finally Novac is attacked as an NCR settlement but it's not like NCR did Novac any good, the Novac water source is irradiated, they have a ghoul infestation and, only three men to defend them (3 men who aren't even in the NCR military).
Have to agree about the peasant thing but we're not sure what Caesars planned reforms are, the Legion could end up resembling pre-dictatorship Rome for all we know, I doubt it but still, who knows?

Yeah, its a big gamble in the end. With the Legion I think its even more risky then the other options! We could go back to some medieval shit man

 

[Izak]

Somebody around the beginning of this thread said the Legion is the true wild card ending and I'm inclined to agree, it could go any which way, utopia or dystopia, dictatorship or democracy, communism or capitalism. Shit a whole other angle on this thing is the fact that most political and philosophical doctrines have been lost to nuclear fire, every political ideology has been set back to its infancy and now they have the chance to grow in ways never seen in the modern world. God I hope Obsidian makes another Fallout.

 

[Dr Fallout]

The NCR is only better because they're too weak to mess with people. That's what I've noticed really.

 

[Vanguardbr]

Somebody around the beginning of this thread said the Legion is the true wild card ending and I'm inclined to agree, it could go any which way, utopia or dystopia, dictatorship or democracy, communism or capitalism. Shit a whole other angle on this thing is the fact that most political and philosophical doctrines have been lost to nuclear fire, every political ideology has been set back to its infancy and now they have the chance to grow in ways never seen in the modern world. God I hope Obsidian makes another Fallout.

NCR, the Courier, Legion and Mr. House. Its valid for all of them in my opinion. Why do you think that the Legion is more then the others?

NCR could change by civil war and revolutions, due the fact that who holds economical power in the NCR is who in fact controls it, and its citizens seems to acknowledged this fact, it could end in either socialism or anarchism, in my opinion. Or somewhere in betwen. Maybe it could become something like 1984!

 

[Dr Fallout]

Legion is more interesting, it makes more sense and it can easily bring back the independent cities, chaotic factions feel rather then massive empires fighting it out.

 

[Vanguardbr]

Legion is more interesting, it makes more sense and it can easily bring back the independent cities, chaotic factions feel rather then massive empires fighting it out.

What sense does it make the hate on technology? Factories are good! Industrial production is great, farming tools etc. Technology is the very base of every production mean. Doesn't make any sense that posture as I see it. Roman Empire wasn't like this.

Mr. House makes a lot of sense, NCR as well. Caesar might be all lawfull and shit on his personality, and his empire is a caricature of this, but his ideas are chaotic in the end man, almost all of them. Rare are the moments where the Legion actually makes some sense lol, and you have to dig quite deeply to find them.