Legion/BoS war (Expect spoilers)

The Brotherhood also has superior training to the majority of the Legionaries. Loook at the Spartans that fought off the Persians, superior training is what allowed them to slaughter many times their own numbers, yes they were defeated, but give them Power Armor and Gatling Lasers, and I think they'll last even longer.
 
Tagaziel said:
This entire argument hinges on the assumption that having a technological advantage equals victory. History has proved time and time again that this is not the case.
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I just registered an account to disagree with this :) A well researched/popular book makes this case far more eloquently than I ever could.

Guns, Germs and Steel (wikipedia)
Guns, Germs and Steel PBS show transcript

Guns said:
... One day in November, 1532, the New World and the Old World collided… 168 Spaniards attacked the imperial army of the Incas in the highlands of Peru. Before the day was out, they had massacred 7,000 people, and taken control of the Inca Empire. Not a single Spanish life was lost in the process. Why was the balance of power so uneven between Old World and New?
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Jared Diamond argues that it was weapon technology, pure and simple, that won the day. Read the transcript for the full argument, and the book even for more examples.

Similar, massive imbalances in terms of people vs technology have resolved in favor of technology repeatedly throughout history.

If the Legion were as primitive as presented - which is not a given, the game may play at exaggeration - they would be slaughtered. At least the NCR had recovered suits of power armor.
 
@Niku
Actually i wouldn't really take the spanish conquest in middle america as an example because quite a few stories of this conquest seems to be untrue, when you read in more modern history-books.

Often the 'few 100' spanish conquestadore were also accompanied by 1000 of native warriors.
And as far as i remember the mentioned part is one of this examples - but i'm not a student of history.

@Niku and Texas Renegade because of the Power Armour

No, the NCR Power Armor wasn't a real 'power' armour, because as some guy at the damn explains - they had to remove the servos (or something like that) and so it doesn't add any strength - making it just a heavy plate armour.

The BoS Power-Armour is quite another thing compared to that.

@Tagaziel

Well that would work out if the BoS would let the Legion use such a tactic.
But unlike the NCR the Brotherhood is also trying to stay out of the 'radar'. So they're only one step away from using guerilla tactics.

And i find the picture of Paladins stomping thorugh a camp at night leaving only the 'dust' of the dead behind them quite a bit more terryfing than the picture the Legion leaves.
 
No, the NCR Power Armor wasn't a real 'power' armour, because as some guy at the damn explains - they had to remove the servos (or something like that) and so it doesn't add any strength - making it just a heavy plate armour.
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That would render the armour pretty useless, impeding speed and reaction time considerably. I wouldn't want to be running around in 50+ lbs. of armour.
 
Thomas de Aynesworth said:
No, the NCR Power Armor wasn't a real 'power' armour, because as some guy at the damn explains - they had to remove the servos (or something like that) and so it doesn't add any strength - making it just a heavy plate armour.
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That would render the armour pretty useless, impeding speed and reaction time considerably. I wouldn't want to be running around in 50+ lbs. of armour.
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Thats right, okay, i think it wasn't as bad as i said, but here's what the Vault says:

NCR technicians have restored it to working order by replacing the standard energy cell power source with a custom power pack and stripping out the joint servomotors, allowing it to be used by soldiers without power armor training but no longer as maneuverable as original power armor
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That's the first thing I thought of first of all..how " it has the power to destroy entire towns without endangering the wearer from attacks by conventional firearms or even missile launchers "
There was once a time where you could take out a military base filled with supermutants by owning a power armor.
What is power armor training btw? ;)
 
The main problem BoS paladins have is their extremely limited numbers. They probably have less than 100 or 120 PAs deployed in the field (in the Mojave). They can hold ground and kill all year without taking any damage but 120 (best case estimate) men are not enough to cover any decent patch of ground without choke points. They can stop any army but Legion will just send skirmishers around them and destroy the countryside / bypass them completely.


Also remember that any Paladin lost is irreplacable. Explosion caused landslides in mountains, massive IEDs, Pit traps, captured / press ganged heavy weapons will take their toll on the BoS.

Without going F:Tactics, BoS can't hold ground. They have to stay guerilla.
 
Superior technology used by elite group may win many battles but will lose a war with high spirited, resourceful enemy with superior numbers.

The history is full of examples:
Ancient - Romans lost their empire to germanic tribes being backward compared to them. Of course permament political crisis of late Roman Empire didn`t helped them.

Modern: WW II Germans, USA in Vietnam, Russians in Afghanistan.

Of course low tech side must have really high morale to sustain heavy causualities.

You can`t also forget that low tech side could alway learn from their adversaries....
 
Cerber said:
Superior technology used by elite group may win many battles but will lose a war with high spirited, resourceful enemy with superior numbers.

The history is full of examples:
Ancient - Romans lost their empire to germanic tribes being backward compared to them. Of course permament political crisis of late Roman Empire didn`t helped them.

Modern: WW II Germans, USA in Vietnam, Russians in Afghanistan.

Of course low tech side must have really high morale to sustain heavy causualities.

You can`t also forget that low tech side could alway learn from their adversaries....
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That's a bit too simplified.
Especially because often the whole 'technological' advanced isn't so true. Often the countries you gave as example weren't ahead in all aspects of military technology.
I could give at least one example for all (maybe except for afghanistan) the examples you gave.

If the prediction of war outcomes were that easy i think whe would have had a lot less wars.
 
Most of the time that the less advanced factions won, they used guerilla tactics. Whereas the "modern" forces, such as the Americans in Vietnam and Middle East, Russians in Afghanistan and Finaland, the British in the colonies, the Romans, Italians in Ethiopia during WWII used conventional tactics.
 
niku said:
Jared Diamond argues that it was weapon technology, pure and simple, that won the day. Read the transcript for the full argument, and the book even for more examples.

Similar, massive imbalances in terms of people vs technology have resolved in favor of technology repeatedly throughout history.
Click to expand...

Yeah, especially for Germans in World War II, Americans in Vietnam and Soviets in Afghanistan.

Oh wait. It didn't. Technological advantage of your enemy doesn't mean anything if you have more men and capable strategists. As I elaborated above, the Legion most likely would not fight fair nor would it engage the enemy on open ground if he had the technological advantage.

Case in point: Camp Searchlight.

Faceless_Stranger said:
The Brotherhood also has superior training to the majority of the Legionaries. Loook at the Spartans that fought off the Persians, superior training is what allowed them to slaughter many times their own numbers, yes they were defeated, but give them Power Armor and Gatling Lasers, and I think they'll last even longer.
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The only reason they were able to do so is because they had the terrain advantage, forcing the enemy forces down a chokepoint and engaging fewer warriors than they'd have to on open ground. If Leonidas' men had to fight on open ground, they'd get stomped in the ground in a single day.

Also, please adress the guerilla warfare outline I described. Don't dodge it.

Faceless_Stranger said:
The Vipers were then almost hunted to extinction.
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I hope you do realize the difference between a single tribe of raiders and an entire, well organized and led army made of at least 86 tribes. The Vipers weren't even at war with the Brotherhood nor were they able to actually wage it. Legion is another matter entirely.

Bad_Karma said:
@Tagaziel

Well that would work out if the BoS would let the Legion use such a tactic.
But unlike the NCR the Brotherhood is also trying to stay out of the 'radar'. So they're only one step away from using guerilla tactics.

And i find the picture of Paladins stomping thorugh a camp at night leaving only the 'dust' of the dead behind them quite a bit more terryfing than the picture the Legion leaves.
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Then why did they lose to the NCR?
 
Tagaziel said:
Bad_Karma said:
@Tagaziel

Well that would work out if the BoS would let the Legion use such a tactic.
But unlike the NCR the Brotherhood is also trying to stay out of the 'radar'. So they're only one step away from using guerilla tactics.

And i find the picture of Paladins stomping thorugh a camp at night leaving only the 'dust' of the dead behind them quite a bit more terryfing than the picture the Legion leaves.
Click to expand...

Then why did they lose to the NCR?
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Well you shouldn't forget they lost while trying to hold Hoover Dam and Helios One, while seemingly not having lost really often in open confrontations before. But now they seem to be quite aware that they need to stay hidden against a bigger enemy.
But now they aren't exactly bound to some 'open' location. Sure they might want to hold the Bunker, but we don't know for sure if they would only stay there.

So you're premise is that they will use old strategies and choose the same tactic they did before or the NCR used.
But for me that seems to be unlikely as their current leader and quite some of their members seem to be in a transition on their outlook how to react and deal with the outside.

Even when following your premise the Legion would only be able to follow through your plan if the BoS didn't spot them first - and looking at the Quests you get from the BoS they seem to be well aware of what is happening around the Valley.

But i agree with you that i comes down to what tactics they both of them uses.

Also big factors we didn't count in yet, are Vulpes Inculta and Ceasar alive in our scenario of BoS against Legion or not. I guess that could make a big difference. As it seems that when this two are gone, the Legions become very unlikely to use Guerilla tactics any longer.
 
I don't think we are accurately considering the numbers discrepancy here.

Caesar can probably put 100-200k men in the field at least. this is why the dam is so important to the NCR. They know if they can't keep caesar on his side of the river, they will be overrun. They just don't have the man power to go toe to toe with the legion.

Now, even if the bos has 100-200 paladins in mohave-which I doubt- that is still 10-20k legionares per paladin.

Even if all it is is they dog pile on on every paladin they will win.
 
@Texas Renegade

No... 100 - 200k man is quite unrealistic, given that the NV region seem to be underdeveloped when compared to some medieval or classical era european country and the numbers of soldiers these countries could yield in their campaigns.

But than again speculating with any number for NV seems inappropriate as the engine isn't well in giving a clear picture on how many soldiers somebody has or how the real economy of such a country might look.
 
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