Threepwood said:
Invalid example, the Russians fought on alien terrain, over a huge area, against an enemy which has been undefeated for literally hundreds of years.
It is a valid example, as it disproves your argument of "technology = victory".
As the Legion would have to cross the river to engage the BOS, for the msot part, the BOS could and would dictate the battle grounds. If they maintain themselves on open ground, then the battle will be on such terrain. Moreover, elite or not, flesh, leather, or even metal is suseptible to Gatling laser fire.
Uh, no. We are basing on a theoretical war of the Brotherhood with the Legion, which can only take place if the Legion defeats the NCR and occupies the Mojave. Thus, the Legion is in CONTROL of the entire area and the Brotherhood would be outnumbered and surrounded.
That's assuming the supply line broke. Laser rifles with scopes, nightvision devices and the proximity of the NCR facility (which was just an example which came to mind) could monitor and protect the line. What makes you think the BOS don't have mines of thier own?
Furthermore, I imagine there would be a sizeable stockpile of food within the facility due to the past Power Ganger occupation.
All of which are meaningless, as you need to have line of sight to actually use the scope. Night vision devices are not magical see-all devices, while the paladins are not omniscient. A skilled elite force would be able to inflitrate the facility. History knows of far tougher nuts that have been cracked than any makeshift fortress the Brotherhood can erect.
Also, pray tell, if the BoS is so powerful, then
how did it lose the war with the NCR, hm?
The BOS have limited rescources, yes, but they have more than enough power armor and energy weapons to equip every member. They open a huge stock to you for purchase, and they have a very liberal ammo use on the training ranges. They're not in dire need of new supplies, which as you said, are provided by Veronica and others.
I did not assume that hence 'as of yet undiscovered'. The bunker would sureley be discovered ofcourse. However, what if Lanius was in command, and the courier killed Vulpes in Nipton? Would such tactics be implimented then?
Explosives could easily be improvised frome existing rescources, and goods brought from surface agents. Not en mass obviously, but a good ammount atleast.
Uh, what? The Brotherhood relies on a very limited amount of pre-War suits of armour, if you failed to notice, in Fallout 1 only Paladins had powered armour, while the rest of the Brotherhood (more numerous too) only wore robes or combat armour. Same goes for the Hidden Valley bunker - while the chapter has a larger number of paladins than other ones, they still don't have nearly enough armour to equip every member nor weapons and ammunition to go around.
I don't think you comprehend (or try to, for that matter) the scale of the conflict we're talking about here. It isn't a shooting range or patrol. It's a full out war against the best the Legion has to offer, a war where the Brotherhood is vastly outnumbered. Such a war needs a lot of supplies and a stable stream of reinforcements and food. As it stands, the Brotherhood has neither of those. Operatives are not a viable source of supply for a war effort.
The reason the BOS lost against the NCR, was primarily because they lingered in HELIOS I which is indefensible, and they allowed themselves to be sorounded ajnd outnumbered. The NCR officer outfront says they had them outnumbered 100:1 I think, and this is against opponents, wholley armed with firearms and combat armor, as opposed to looneys with machettes, and the BOS still kicked quite a bit of ass.
No, they lost because they were outnumbered, outgunned AND the Mojave chapter was nearly wiped out at Helios One. The Brotherhood did not kick ass - they were forced to run with their tails tucked between their legs, lest the NCR destroy what little remained of Elijah's fighting force.
Furthermore, the Legion is not "looneys with machetes". They are a well organized, disciplined and fanatical fighting force. Yes, raw recruits are typically thrown into combat with melee weapons, but they are just a distraction. The main fighters use firearms quite liberally, not to mention explosives and heavier melee weapons.
That's ignoring the amount of weapons they'd loot after taking the Mojave.
Again invalid, alien terrain, reliance on veichles, wholley different enemies, much larger combat zones, etc etc.
Err, no, it's very valid, even more so when you remember that powered armour is quite a bit slower than a Humvee and thus easier to ambush.
How many men are we putting the BOS at? over one hundred? we need to decide this before we comment on such things.
...what? Is that even a question? The Brotherhood has one (1) small bunker in the Mojave. Caesar has a massive army rallied in a large camp outside Fortification Hill formed from the 86 tribes he conquered. They *are* vastly outnumbered, even more so considering that most of the Mojave chapter was killed at Helios One.
Don't be so obtuse, I have obviously noted that fact. If we assume the Legion will be reinforced from Arizona, then one assumes the BOS can also be reinforced, no?
No. The Brotherhood in the West is still at war with the NCR. Otherwise, they'd have reinforced McNamara already.
Whos not to say, upon the start of the battle, the Elder says "Hey, Courier, we'll take that farm processing thingabob!" and the food shortage is solved? -And again, ammunition seems to be fairly avalible.
As stated above, the only instance in which the War can take place is if the Courier aids the Legion in taking Mojave. As such, the Courier would have no intention to help the Brotherhood, to the contrary.
Which also means the Legion would be controlling the Boomers, or at least their artillery, which is something the Brotherhood cannot counter.
No big guns, no. Missile launchers, improvised short range artillerey, salvaged mortars etc, yes. Why is it unlikley? How does a project taking place between the scribes in the bunker have anything to do with Arizona reinforcments?
You honestly have no idea about artillery, do you? Missile launchers shoot straight, they don't arc, which means they won't reach the Fort's interior. Anything the Brotherhood can muster, short of mortars, is simply not going to work against an entrenched and well prepared enemy.
It lacks a degree of manpower, but with adaquete terrain and other dominos falling into place, this can easily be accounted for.
No. Simply, no. As elaborated above and in other posts, the Brotherhood simply cannot win such a war because the dominos are not going to fall into place. Why can't you accept that?
Faceless_Stranger said:
The Afgans were being slaughtered by the Soviets before the Americans supplied them with weapons. Also, T-51b isn't vulnerable to mines, why would an IED be any different? Again, during the Sino-American war, the few mechanized cavalary squads of T-51b troops were able to clear the advanced CHINESE forces and were entering Beijing when the bombs dropped.
You mean in the same way a tank is invulnerable to anti-tank mines?
Bad_Karma said:
The Legion also doesn't have a location in region supporting their army - Vegas seems to be only able to support itself, all other resources need to be importet - and the supplying an army as big as the legion is even worse than supplying a little army.
So the BoS is more likely to being able to life from the country near Vegas, than the Legion.
About the dam, just thinking about it - you might be right. While i read at the Vault that they were there (coming from the NV offical game guide) i think Veronica said they didn't even get there. But i'm not anymore sure about that.
The lands east of the Colorado are their supply and with the Legion's taking of Mojave wasteland (which is the prerequisite of a hypothetical Legion/Brotherhood war) they have all of its resources to support itself, which is far more than the Brotherhood would have.
Veronicas quest seems to me to be besides the point because the quest shows that they aren't quite yet ready to change their whole ideology, so that's another thing than strategy and tactics - but that's only the impression i got from her quest.
Veronica's quest exposes all of their weaknesses, most importantly dogmatism. Pray tell, why would such a dogmatic organisation change all of their strategy and tactics basing on one defeat? Hell, such a drastic failure at Helios One did nothing to change Hardin's or McNamara's attitudes. They're completely oblivious to the fact that the Brotherhood is dying a slow death.
By the way even her existance might be a hint that they are slowly changing their minds. And she doesn't seem to be the only one who think that something has to change, to strengthen the BoS.
She clearly states that she is an outsider used as a field operative because they don't want her in the bunker spreading her beliefs. Hell, the paladins that chastise you and eventually attack during her quest are proof enough that the Brotherhood is still stuck in its 2161 mentality, if not worse.
Well the quests "Still in the dark" and "Eyesight to the blind" show that they are interested in exploring further whats going on outside. And especially in one of the eraly quests you see that they are monitoring the eara all around black mountain.
They are only interested in intel on the surrounding areas, not current events (well, except for those directly related to them, such as Rangers searching for them in the area).
Sure, their tries don't succeed every time - but alone that they don't try to kill you when you stumble upon them but want you to scout for them is a sign for me that they are not completly ignorant.
The explosive collar they slip on your neck just in case is a great sign of willingness to change.
So as said i would agree that the BoS might loose real quick if they would try to stay in one single location or let themselves be tricked into stomping toward some trap. But i'm not convinced that they might do so.
Why wouldn't they? It worked for them in the past, why wouldn't they consider doing this again?
Mr Damsky said:
Mujahadeen had Stinger Missiles.
The Legion would have missile launchers, howitzers and explosives too. They adapt.
