Legion/BoS war (Expect spoilers)

It is a valid example, as it disproves your argument of "technology = victory".

Uh, no. We are basing on a theoretical war of the Brotherhood with the Legion, which can only take place if the Legion defeats the NCR and occupies the Mojave. Thus, the Legion is in CONTROL of the entire area and the Brotherhood would be outnumbered and surrounded.

All of which are meaningless, as you need to have line of sight to actually use the scope. Night vision devices are not magical see-all devices, while the paladins are not omniscient. A skilled elite force would be able to inflitrate the facility. History knows of far tougher nuts that have been cracked than any makeshift fortress the Brotherhood can erect.

Also, pray tell, if the BoS is so powerful, then how did it lose the war with the NCR, hm?

Uh, what? The Brotherhood relies on a very limited amount of pre-War suits of armour, if you failed to notice, in Fallout 1 only Paladins had powered armour, while the rest of the Brotherhood (more numerous too) only wore robes or combat armour. Same goes for the Hidden Valley bunker - while the chapter has a larger number of paladins than other ones, they still don't have nearly enough armour to equip every member nor weapons and ammunition to go around.

I don't think you comprehend (or try to, for that matter) the scale of the conflict we're talking about here. It isn't a shooting range or patrol. It's a full out war against the best the Legion has to offer, a war where the Brotherhood is vastly outnumbered. Such a war needs a lot of supplies and a stable stream of reinforcements and food. As it stands, the Brotherhood has neither of those. Operatives are not a viable source of supply for a war effort.

No, they lost because they were outnumbered, outgunned AND the Mojave chapter was nearly wiped out at Helios One. The Brotherhood did not kick ass - they were forced to run with their tails tucked between their legs, lest the NCR destroy what little remained of Elijah's fighting force.

Furthermore, the Legion is not "looneys with machetes". They are a well organized, disciplined and fanatical fighting force. Yes, raw recruits are typically thrown into combat with melee weapons, but they are just a distraction. The main fighters use firearms quite liberally, not to mention explosives and heavier melee weapons.

That's ignoring the amount of weapons they'd loot after taking the Mojave.

Err, no, it's very valid, even more so when you remember that powered armour is quite a bit slower than a Humvee and thus easier to ambush.

...what? Is that even a question? The Brotherhood has one (1) small bunker in the Mojave. Caesar has a massive army rallied in a large camp outside Fortification Hill formed from the 86 tribes he conquered. They *are* vastly outnumbered, even more so considering that most of the Mojave chapter was killed at Helios One.

No. The Brotherhood in the West is still at war with the NCR. Otherwise, they'd have reinforced McNamara already.

As stated above, the only instance in which the War can take place is if the Courier aids the Legion in taking Mojave. As such, the Courier would have no intention to help the Brotherhood, to the contrary.

Which also means the Legion would be controlling the Boomers, or at least their artillery, which is something the Brotherhood cannot counter.

You honestly have no idea about artillery, do you? Missile launchers shoot straight, they don't arc, which means they won't reach the Fort's interior. Anything the Brotherhood can muster, short of mortars, is simply not going to work against an entrenched and well prepared enemy.

No. Simply, no. As elaborated above and in other posts, the Brotherhood simply cannot win such a war because the dominos are not going to fall into place. Why can't you accept that?

You mean in the same way a tank is invulnerable to anti-tank mines?

The lands east of the Colorado are their supply and with the Legion's taking of Mojave wasteland (which is the prerequisite of a hypothetical Legion/Brotherhood war) they have all of its resources to support itself, which is far more than the Brotherhood would have.

Veronica's quest exposes all of their weaknesses, most importantly dogmatism. Pray tell, why would such a dogmatic organisation change all of their strategy and tactics basing on one defeat? Hell, such a drastic failure at Helios One did nothing to change Hardin's or McNamara's attitudes. They're completely oblivious to the fact that the Brotherhood is dying a slow death.

She clearly states that she is an outsider used as a field operative because they don't want her in the bunker spreading her beliefs. Hell, the paladins that chastise you and eventually attack during her quest are proof enough that the Brotherhood is still stuck in its 2161 mentality, if not worse.

They are only interested in intel on the surrounding areas, not current events (well, except for those directly related to them, such as Rangers searching for them in the area).

The explosive collar they slip on your neck just in case is a great sign of willingness to change.

Why wouldn't they? It worked for them in the past, why wouldn't they consider doing this again?

The Legion would have missile launchers, howitzers and explosives too. They adapt.

 

The only instance in which the Brotherhood would be facing off against the Legion is if the Legion takes the Mojave. The prerequisite for the latter is the Courier helping the Legion.

Which, amusingly, means that there'd be no Brotherhood with which to fight, as their destruction is necessary for Caesar's plans.

 

But it's the only one available for war.

 

They're not. They're extremely durable, but can be destroyed. Hell, in the Glow, most of the paladins were cut down by robots and facility traps, showing that with all its strength it's not invulnerable and should not be confused with a tank in its purpose.

 

The Legion has more than enough troops and ordnance to do that.

It doesn't weaken them because they've got men to spare.

They only agree to help them if the NCR returns all salvaged T-45d armour. They haven't changed one bit, it's still a move that's meant to take technology from lesser people, except this time, they give something in return.

Where is their changing strategy? McNamara still has their technology hunt interest determining their strategic choices, as I've explained above. Hardin is even worse, as alliance with the NCR is an abomination for him.

It has everything to do with tactics and strategies - a change in mentality brings upon a change in tactics.

I've never said they weren't interested in the events around them, I said that they have a very narrow definition of "relevant" and are largely ignorant of what happens outside. Hell, I'm replaying Fallout: New Vegas right now and the question most often asked in the bunker is "Is the NCR still hunting us?". If they were really interested in the news, they'd acquire and disseminate intel that the NCR is at war with the Legion and has more pressing matters than a bunch of defeated guys stuck in a bunker underground.

Why would they send in an entire unit? A single saboteur with a backpack of explosives would suffice. As would eg. a disguised frumentarii who would shadow troops back to Hidden Valley and figure out which bunker they are in.

That's ignoring the fact that hulking steel figures in that area are a well known myth among the Mojave wastelanders. It's not hard to put two and two together.

In fact, here's a quote from Caesar when he orders you to destroy the Brotherhood:

Still think the Valley is secure?

They only do that because you're an useful tool. As they themselves say, otherwise, you'd be executed on the spot. They even threaten you with execution to keep you loyal in the future.

Didn't seem to change even after Helios. Sending peace envoys to the NCR would be change. Hiding underground waiting for them to die is not.

Why? They pretty much know where the BoS is and Caesar is well aware of the threat they pose.

 

The only reason they won was because the NCR had Chief Hanlon and Joshua Graham wasn't a brilliant strategist.