Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
All the Brotherhood would have to do is hold the dam and Cottonwood Cove, that would creat chokepoints where the Legion's numbers would be meaningless and the ntech would allow victory.
Legion/BoS war (Expect spoilers)
- Thread starter Faceless Stranger
- Start date
Until the Legion will build bridges or boats to cross the river on other points.
Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
Lexx said:
They can't. That's lost tech held tightly by the BoS.
Threepwood
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Let's just put a few scenarios together and compare results:
Paladin V Legonaire in open ground = BOS victory.
Paladin V 10 legionaries in open ground =BOS victory.
Paladin v 50 legionaries in open ground = BOS victory, power armor can resist missiles, how can a mob armed with machetes penetrate it, let alone make it's way through gatling laser fire?
Heck, id say, realistically a Paladin could take a hundred melee opponents before falling, if not more.
Paladin va ___ legionaries in chokepoint = limitless possibilities.
---
Now, assuming a guerilla warfare approach.
The Brotherhood would not assume a defensive stance in the Bunker, my guess is they'd migrate to a defensible position with chokepoints, i.ae NCR facility.
Now, if this were the outlying post, gunners in the towers could easily cover a supply route, to and from Hidden Valley, which could erect perimeter defences, sentries, and innumerable traps to prevent the destruction of the, as of yet, concealed entrance.
The facility could be used to spearhead assaults, wherein Brotherhood travel on open ground, are as such immune from unseen ambushes.
How would the Legion hold say, Hoover Dam from the BOS? They could try and cut them up in the corridors and lead them into ambushes, but all it takes is to have men hold the external chokepoints, and starve them out.
How would the Legion hold The Fort? It's impossible, again, despite the obvious success of a direct assault, a siege could easily be maintained, blocking the only exit, and having Paladins spread across the perimeter. Then, rain missile ordinance into the base, what can the Legion do? Counter attack with Power fist armed sunglass clad body guards?
Once the Fort is taken, the singular chokepoint would again work to the BOS advantage, wherein a small token force of 50 Paladins could hold it against thousands of legionnaires.
Paladin V Legonaire in open ground = BOS victory.
Paladin V 10 legionaries in open ground =BOS victory.
Paladin v 50 legionaries in open ground = BOS victory, power armor can resist missiles, how can a mob armed with machetes penetrate it, let alone make it's way through gatling laser fire?
Heck, id say, realistically a Paladin could take a hundred melee opponents before falling, if not more.
Paladin va ___ legionaries in chokepoint = limitless possibilities.
---
Now, assuming a guerilla warfare approach.
The Brotherhood would not assume a defensive stance in the Bunker, my guess is they'd migrate to a defensible position with chokepoints, i.ae NCR facility.
Now, if this were the outlying post, gunners in the towers could easily cover a supply route, to and from Hidden Valley, which could erect perimeter defences, sentries, and innumerable traps to prevent the destruction of the, as of yet, concealed entrance.
The facility could be used to spearhead assaults, wherein Brotherhood travel on open ground, are as such immune from unseen ambushes.
How would the Legion hold say, Hoover Dam from the BOS? They could try and cut them up in the corridors and lead them into ambushes, but all it takes is to have men hold the external chokepoints, and starve them out.
How would the Legion hold The Fort? It's impossible, again, despite the obvious success of a direct assault, a siege could easily be maintained, blocking the only exit, and having Paladins spread across the perimeter. Then, rain missile ordinance into the base, what can the Legion do? Counter attack with Power fist armed sunglass clad body guards?
Once the Fort is taken, the singular chokepoint would again work to the BOS advantage, wherein a small token force of 50 Paladins could hold it against thousands of legionnaires.
Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
Amazing, I think we need to call Deadliest WarriorThreepwood said:
Threepwood
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
[/quote] Amazing, I think we need to call Deadliest Warrior[/quote]
Deadliest Warrior?
Deadliest Warrior?
I think something that should not be forgotten is that the Brotherhood already loost a war against a force that was inferior from technology but superior in numbers.
Its correct to say that technology alone does not equal a victory. And with enough numbers present the Legion "could" win eventually against the BoS. That is, if the BoS knows about their advantage AND can come up with tactics. But even that doesnt mean everything. I mean there is just so much you can do when a few 100 000 soldiers are storming your position while you are holding it with just a few. And as it can be seen in the game the legion is not just armed with machetes only. Some do use indeed guns. There is also a large howitzer in their camp (broken but still).
I never got this "we hate tech bla bla" by the Legion when they DO use some technology. Balistic and power fists, certain small arms and explosives. No force would be so stupid to never ever use guns against enemies which do have some.
I think the real reason why Caisar swears so much on meele weapons is cause he damn well knows that he can not give all of his soldiers the best possible equipment.
Its correct to say that technology alone does not equal a victory. And with enough numbers present the Legion "could" win eventually against the BoS. That is, if the BoS knows about their advantage AND can come up with tactics. But even that doesnt mean everything. I mean there is just so much you can do when a few 100 000 soldiers are storming your position while you are holding it with just a few. And as it can be seen in the game the legion is not just armed with machetes only. Some do use indeed guns. There is also a large howitzer in their camp (broken but still).
I never got this "we hate tech bla bla" by the Legion when they DO use some technology. Balistic and power fists, certain small arms and explosives. No force would be so stupid to never ever use guns against enemies which do have some.
I think the real reason why Caisar swears so much on meele weapons is cause he damn well knows that he can not give all of his soldiers the best possible equipment.
KillerBee256
Still Mildly Glowing
There is also a psychological aspect to using melee, you really freak out your enemy, especially if your willing to send wave after wave. The Japanese did that in WW2 and the chinese in korea(the numbers aspect anyway).
Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
Stupid show on SPIKE. They use "science" and "data" to pit 2 historic fighters (knight vs. viking etc.) against eachother and see who wins.Threepwood said:
Threepwood
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Faceless_Stranger said:
Ah, as a Brit, i'm lucky enough to avoid this kind of programming.
Regarding 50 Legionaries vs Paladin:
Is the Paladin armed with a MiniGun/Gatling Laser with plenty of ammo, or is he armed with something that requires more magazine/power cell changes?
It's possible that he could be overrun and brought down by a mass of bodies. At least when you have a bunch of fanatics attacking him.
Is the Paladin armed with a MiniGun/Gatling Laser with plenty of ammo, or is he armed with something that requires more magazine/power cell changes?
It's possible that he could be overrun and brought down by a mass of bodies. At least when you have a bunch of fanatics attacking him.
Threepwood
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Cromlech said:
I was assuming Gatling laser.
Bad_Karma said:
They do not control any other location in the region fit to support an army. They were defeated at Helios One, not at Hoover Dam, they did not hold it. The bunker they are defending is a chokepoint, yes, but the Legion doesn't have to take it - simply besiege it or blow up the entrance and seal them inside.
The entire point of Veronica's quest is to show that the Brotherhood is not adapting well to the changing world and circumstances and are unwilling to change. They aren't transitioning - if they were, Santangelo's arguments would hit home, wouldn't they?
"Still in the dark" shows that they are almost completely ignorant of developments outside of their little bunker and it is only in "Eyesight to the blind" that they gain basic intel on the current state of the surrounding area. Sure, they know what happens inside their fenced-in compound, but outside of it? The Legion can just carefully mine the approaches or wire them with C4 to keep the Brotherhood in check.
The assumption is that both live.
Faceless_Stranger said:
They'd first have to take these two locations and it's very unlikely that they'd be able to. Even if they can do it, the Legion can simply go around Lake Mead. After all, they are able to attack Camp Golf during the endgame.
Stanislao Moulinsky said:They can't. That's lost tech held tightly by the BoS.
Benny made it to The Fort in a boat.
Threepwood said:
The Soviets thought the same of their Hinds in Afghanistan. Mujahadeen proved them wrong.
Besides, why on earth do you assume that the Legion would challenge them on open ground in melee instead of engaging them from a distance with elite units, while experienced troops flank them and raw recruits provide a distraction for the enemy to shoot?
Then the Legion would lay siege and simply starve them to death.
In a perfect world, sure. However, if you haven't noticed, the Brotherhood has very finite supplies and they simply wouldn't be able to afford more than just the most basic of defenses. You're also assuming that the Legion is incapable of covert surveillance, which is simply not true. Its scouts would quite easily locate the Hidden Valley bunker if a supply line from it is estabilished and then they'd simply attack and destroy it.
Tell me, on what basis do you assume that the Brotherhood whose might was BROKEN by the NCR and which choked for several years in total isolation outside of the most essential supply runs by covert operatives such as Veronica would be able to manufacture completely new defences, sentries and traps when they do not have any industrial capability? Hell, the power armour you get as a reward comes from scrapped powered armour suits put together to working condition.
No, they aren't. Are American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan immune to unseen ambushes and IEDs? Same situation in New Vegas basically.
The Brotherhood does not have the manpower to block every exit from the facility AND the Legion has vast reserves of men and equipment with which to wear them down by constant attacks from all directions should the BoS be stupid enough to besiege a DAM with their insignificant numbers.
Paladins and what army? Again, you apparently haven't noticed that the Brotherhood is a very small organization which doesn't have many soldiers at its disposal, certainly not enough to control large areas of land, which would be ESSENTIAL to maintain a siege on a well fortified and well defended location. People holding the siege would have to have a large supply of food, weapons, ammunition and spare parts, which is just not going to happen - the Brotherhood is ill equipped to fight a prolonged war with an enemy that controls an entire-fucking-state of Arizona and more.
Also, where did you pull "missile ordnance" from? The Brotherhood has no artillery at their disposal, hell, the entire point of securing the Boomers' loyalty is to GAIN artillery support for whatever faction you decide to side with. All the Brotherhood could do is try and create makeshift mortars and even that's unlikely, as they'd have to contend with wave upon wave of veterans swarming in from Arizona.
That's the entire point. With all its power armour and advanced weapons, the Brotherhood simply lacks the manpower and resources to win a war with any of the major factions, as they'd get killed, even if they managed to take a lot of opponents with them.
Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
Tagaziel said:Stanislao Moulinsky said:They can't. That's lost tech held tightly by the BoS.
Benny made it to The Fort in a boat.
Erm...I wasn't serious.
Not to forget that different to the Legion the Brotherhood doesnt really accept any new blood in their ranks so any dead BS member weights more then maybe 10 or even 50 of the Legion seeing as how they threat many of their soldiers as canonfoder anyway.Tagaziel said:
Its I think possible to say that against the Legion the BoS would suffer the same fate like aginst the NCR for obviously the same reasons which you already mentioned. Low numbers, low supplies.
Threepwood
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Ah, let's get started :L
Invalid example, the Russians fought on alien terrain, over a huge area, against an enemy which has been undefeated for literally hundreds of years.
As the Legion would have to cross the river to engage the BOS, for the msot part, the BOS could and would dictate the battle grounds. If they maintain themselves on open ground, then the battle will be on such terrain. Moreover, elite or not, flesh, leather, or even metal is suseptible to Gatling laser fire.
That's assuming the supply line broke. Laser rifles with scopes, nightvision devices and the proximity of the NCR facility (which was just an example which came to mind) could monitor and protect the line. What makes you think the BOS don't have mines of thier own?
Furthermore, I imagine there would be a sizeable stockpile of food within the facility due to the past Power Ganger occupation.
The BOS have limited rescources, yes, but they have more than enough power armor and energy weapons to equip every member. They open a huge stock to you for purchase, and they have a very liberal ammo use on the training ranges. They're not in dire need of new supplies, which as you said, are provided by Veronica and others.
I did not assume that hence 'as of yet undiscovered'. The bunker would sureley be discovered ofcourse. However, what if Lanius was in command, and the courier killed Vulpes in Nipton? Would such tactics be implimented then?
Explosives could easily be improvised frome existing rescources, and goods brought from surface agents. Not en mass obviously, but a good ammount atleast.
The reason the BOS lost against the NCR, was primarily because they lingered in HELIOS I which is indefensible, and they allowed themselves to be sorounded ajnd outnumbered. The NCR officer outfront says they had them outnumbered 100:1 I think, and this is against opponents, wholley armed with firearms and combat armor, as opposed to looneys with machettes, and the BOS still kicked quite a bit of ass.
Again invalid, alien terrain, reliance on veichles, wholley different enemies, much larger combat zones, etc etc.
How many men are we putting the BOS at? over one hundred? we need to decide this before we comment on such things.
Don't be so obtuse, I have obviously noted that fact. If we assume the Legion will be reinforced from Arizona, then one assumes the BOS can also be reinforced, no?
Whos not to say, upon the start of the battle, the Elder says "Hey, Courier, we'll take that farm processing thingabob!" and the food shortage is solved? -And again, ammunition seems to be fairly avalible.
No big guns, no. Missile launchers, improvised short range artillerey, salvaged mortars etc, yes. Why is it unlikley? How does a project taking place between the scribes in the bunker have anything to do with Arizona reinforcments?
It lacks a degree of manpower, but with adaquete terrain and other dominos falling into place, this can easily be accounted for.
Invalid example, the Russians fought on alien terrain, over a huge area, against an enemy which has been undefeated for literally hundreds of years.
As the Legion would have to cross the river to engage the BOS, for the msot part, the BOS could and would dictate the battle grounds. If they maintain themselves on open ground, then the battle will be on such terrain. Moreover, elite or not, flesh, leather, or even metal is suseptible to Gatling laser fire.
That's assuming the supply line broke. Laser rifles with scopes, nightvision devices and the proximity of the NCR facility (which was just an example which came to mind) could monitor and protect the line. What makes you think the BOS don't have mines of thier own?
Furthermore, I imagine there would be a sizeable stockpile of food within the facility due to the past Power Ganger occupation.
The BOS have limited rescources, yes, but they have more than enough power armor and energy weapons to equip every member. They open a huge stock to you for purchase, and they have a very liberal ammo use on the training ranges. They're not in dire need of new supplies, which as you said, are provided by Veronica and others.
I did not assume that hence 'as of yet undiscovered'. The bunker would sureley be discovered ofcourse. However, what if Lanius was in command, and the courier killed Vulpes in Nipton? Would such tactics be implimented then?
Explosives could easily be improvised frome existing rescources, and goods brought from surface agents. Not en mass obviously, but a good ammount atleast.
The reason the BOS lost against the NCR, was primarily because they lingered in HELIOS I which is indefensible, and they allowed themselves to be sorounded ajnd outnumbered. The NCR officer outfront says they had them outnumbered 100:1 I think, and this is against opponents, wholley armed with firearms and combat armor, as opposed to looneys with machettes, and the BOS still kicked quite a bit of ass.
Again invalid, alien terrain, reliance on veichles, wholley different enemies, much larger combat zones, etc etc.
How many men are we putting the BOS at? over one hundred? we need to decide this before we comment on such things.
Don't be so obtuse, I have obviously noted that fact. If we assume the Legion will be reinforced from Arizona, then one assumes the BOS can also be reinforced, no?
Whos not to say, upon the start of the battle, the Elder says "Hey, Courier, we'll take that farm processing thingabob!" and the food shortage is solved? -And again, ammunition seems to be fairly avalible.
No big guns, no. Missile launchers, improvised short range artillerey, salvaged mortars etc, yes. Why is it unlikley? How does a project taking place between the scribes in the bunker have anything to do with Arizona reinforcments?
It lacks a degree of manpower, but with adaquete terrain and other dominos falling into place, this can easily be accounted for.
In the capital wasteland of Bethesda maybe.Threepwood said:
But tradionaly no, the BS has not that much Power armors to give every of their soldiers one.
Your assuming the BoS will ALWAYS have the chance to fight under the best conditions. With assuming this we could say that 1 roman legion could win against the whole US army today. If the conditions are right.Threepwood said:
But thats unrealistic and not how war works. Fortune of war shits more easily then one might think. And the BoS can find them self very fast in a disastrous situaiton if that isnt already true after their los of Helios, I mean their Head Elder explains it even to you after you complete his quests ! That their Observations shows a much higher number in NRC troops then before they loost at Helios. NRC or Legion, the BoS is at the moment not on its peak. And its realistic to say that they probably dont have enough power to battle any of the major factions.
Threepwood
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Crni Vuk said:
Have you been to Hidden Valley? They even give you free power armor + offer to sell you several restocking suits.
they give you an "older model" of powerarmor and only after you literaly saved their lidle hideout. Thats not what I consider best of the best. Hey I respect your love for the BoS. I do like them a lot as well. But that doesnt mean one should be unrealistic. They are not some kind of knights with god-like characteristics. I will say it again even if the BoS kill many enemies ANY victory the enemy can gain will hurt the BoS a lot more then either the Legion or NCR. They simply win by wearing them out. Not the most subtle of tactics. But works often enough.
Stanislao Moulinsky said:Tagaziel said:Stanislao Moulinsky said:They can't. That's lost tech held tightly by the BoS.
Benny made it to The Fort in a boat.
Erm...I wasn't serious.
