If they're going to make a New Vegas, have some Asian gangsters there too. I never understood why you could encounter Yakuza around New Reno, but there were never any Yakuza gangs in the city. They wasted a golden opportunity there to link the Yakuza gangs to the Shi in San Francisco, to have the city make more sense.
Lessons learned from New Reno?
- Thread starter Brother None
- Start date
Japan = China for a lot of people.
That whole Yellow Claw of the Orient idea still hasn't really passed out of the cultural psyche.
That whole Yellow Claw of the Orient idea still hasn't really passed out of the cultural psyche.
^lol yeah, what he said. Of course, we could also come up with a very complicated answer about how since China was the other dominant superpower in 2077, they had already absorbed and annexed Japan as well, and traces of that relationship still exist with the Shi and the Yakuza working together.
the lone deathclaw
First time out of the vault
Grayswandir said:
Ok, I've played the fallout series from the start and i'm a sometimes troller and random poster here. I love NMA and honestly I understand the anger about fallout 2 by and large, I get it, in conciseness and in terms of vision and cinematography Fallout wins hands down. However in terms of the New Reno anger I do not get it at all. The families did not survive the war, at least is it no where expressed in the game, maybe in the bible and if so my bad. However, I see New Reno as random raiders with mechanics taking over a city and becoming "legitimate businessmen." They were not in any way the mafia of old and the only references to Depression era gangsters were the bouncers and Pretty Boy Lloyd. I exclude the Wrights from this since bootlegging would clearly be a racket after the fall of civilization. Also New Reno had a real economy in fallout 2 and I replay the fallout games at least once a year from the start. It was based on drugs, last time I checked the drug trade is very lucrative.
Granted I do not want New Vegas to rehash New Reno or any of the Reno families to have a stake in New Vegas unless the Bishops did in their alliance with NCR. Granted I do not want the Bishops or any of the old families in this game but that's the only one that makes even a bit of sense due to their alliance with a major power.
New Vegas must push the envelope like Fallout 2 did but it should fit into the universe as well, I have no problem with Vegas controlling the Hoover Dam. However file me under the no more water main quests.
I also disdain the constant BOS/Enclave fall back but honestly I do not see watertraders or random raiders controlling prewar tech. The reavers in the disputed canon of Fallout Tactics predated other Firefly comments and the show. I feel that while they did not make perfect sense other than they took the BOS technology fetish to a level of religion in terms of actual belief in deities.
I feel New Vegas should have some gangster feel because how can a retro-future 50's setting not contain a gangster element. That would be the ultimate blasphemy on the feeling of Fallout. Point two, no more focus on water as the main quest, side quest ok I get it. Furthermore, please developers use this as a canvas for a linear quest with modifications and real consequences for your decisions and have those be legion. Changes are not ghouls rule tenpenny tower they are long term ramifications in an ending featuring Ron Pearlman. Real and different endings not Jesus Christ on the cross only to be resurrected for DLD content. Maybe it's just me that's pissed that the VD was brought back in the expansions. Granted I was really pissed you kill yourself in the OC of Fallout 3 but at least stick to your bullshit plot holes about no way the radiation immune super-mutant would help you out. Create a new vision that pays homage to the past...and not the Mario 2esqe Fallout 3. Gangsters would be fine and maybe it's just me but I wouldn't crucify for a renvisaged Flamingo hotel to pay homage to the past.
the lone deathclaw said:
Well, this is quite true in our world, but not in a post-ap world. I would go into details, but there's a lengthy thread about this in the General Fallout discussion, you definitely should read that.
I want New Vegas either to be more on the realistic site of post-ap, like VB or F1 was, or to be a complete gore B category comedy.
Bitch don't touch my New Reno!
I loved the whole setting and I belive it fits into the post apocalyptic world. Let's face it, hundreds of years have passed. A gambling, drug and criminal mecca has been created.
Everything about New Reno was awesome. So don't bitch about it.
I loved the whole setting and I belive it fits into the post apocalyptic world. Let's face it, hundreds of years have passed. A gambling, drug and criminal mecca has been created.
Everything about New Reno was awesome. So don't bitch about it.
BurntAluminum
First time out of the vault
Some people are saying New Vegas shouldn't be New Reno 2, some people suggest gambling not being a part of Vegas(Like that'll ever happen), which in my opinion ruins the whole feel of the game. While I do admit New Reno was a little out of place in some factors, such as Salvatore's bar being too fancy even for a technologically advanced gang, as well as filming new porn Flicks.(Where do they get all the film? How do they mass produce it or at least distribute so many different movies about New Reno?)
Just because New Vegas will probably end up as New Reno 2, doesn't mean it's going to suck, but they will probably cut some things found in Fallout 2 Such as the Porn studio. A big part of Vegas are Casino's, I could certainly see the Sahara being run down, the roller coaster on the outside falling down onto the Valet Parking lot, and the railway creating a sort of barricade leaving only one entrance into the casino.
Imagine you took the slot machines and blackjack tables out of a casino, made Vegas as friendly sounding as this thread seemingly wants it to be, It's kind of beyond 'Dumb Idea' and straight into 'Does not justify the name Vegas'. You've got to consider the new Audiences as well, I'm sure we all dropped whatever we were saw the commercials. Go to Game Stop or EB-Games(some are still open surprisingly) and ask For any fallout game prior to 3(the PS2/Xbox version doesn't count), No luck, now think about the people who just discovered Fallout.
Now I'm not it should look like the godfather, but old fashioned gangsters and Vegas go hand in hand. Honestly I wouldn't mind wannabe Mobsters who saw too many pre-war mob movies and decided to squat in The Flamingo. Gambling doesn't have to be a mini-game, it just has to be part of the environment.
Put simply, New Vegas has to be somewhat like New Reno with the Crime. Take out what truly wasn't necessary in New Reno, such as the Porn Studio.
Just because New Vegas will probably end up as New Reno 2, doesn't mean it's going to suck, but they will probably cut some things found in Fallout 2 Such as the Porn studio. A big part of Vegas are Casino's, I could certainly see the Sahara being run down, the roller coaster on the outside falling down onto the Valet Parking lot, and the railway creating a sort of barricade leaving only one entrance into the casino.
Imagine you took the slot machines and blackjack tables out of a casino, made Vegas as friendly sounding as this thread seemingly wants it to be, It's kind of beyond 'Dumb Idea' and straight into 'Does not justify the name Vegas'. You've got to consider the new Audiences as well, I'm sure we all dropped whatever we were saw the commercials. Go to Game Stop or EB-Games(some are still open surprisingly) and ask For any fallout game prior to 3(the PS2/Xbox version doesn't count), No luck, now think about the people who just discovered Fallout.
Now I'm not it should look like the godfather, but old fashioned gangsters and Vegas go hand in hand. Honestly I wouldn't mind wannabe Mobsters who saw too many pre-war mob movies and decided to squat in The Flamingo. Gambling doesn't have to be a mini-game, it just has to be part of the environment.
Put simply, New Vegas has to be somewhat like New Reno with the Crime. Take out what truly wasn't necessary in New Reno, such as the Porn Studio.
What crime?
Crime would indicate that there is some government around that actually handles and carries out laws, and there is no such thing in general in Fallout.
The only cities/organizations that have laws are the NCR, BOS and Vault City, and neither of them has been mentioned of being in charge of Las Vegas.
As for Reno, one of the problems was the idea of massive syndicates that were out competing with another.
While its perhaps okay to have that once, having yet another syndicate vs syndicate situation is unwanted as it only makes NV un-Fallout.
Go play GTA if you want a game involving gangsters and crime syndicates.
Crime would indicate that there is some government around that actually handles and carries out laws, and there is no such thing in general in Fallout.
The only cities/organizations that have laws are the NCR, BOS and Vault City, and neither of them has been mentioned of being in charge of Las Vegas.
As for Reno, one of the problems was the idea of massive syndicates that were out competing with another.
While its perhaps okay to have that once, having yet another syndicate vs syndicate situation is unwanted as it only makes NV un-Fallout.
Go play GTA if you want a game involving gangsters and crime syndicates.
BurntAluminum
First time out of the vault
The simplest way to state the New Reno Government is Criminal, sure there's no law enforcing it, but Las Vegas without Immoral Activity(If these words suit you more) more or less just makes Las Vegas what it shouldn't be. Again, to many people Fallout 3 is the first game in the series anyone has ever played, consider new fans who never saw New Reno, and are unlikely to ever see it, since most game stores don't carry the original games anymore.
Sure big syndicates with enclave connections don't need to be put in place, but the Drug Trade, Casino's, and Money is all part of Vegas and Reno. Both Towns Hold Similarities, Reno in its own way is small scale Vegas. The Corruption and Greed is what makes Vegas what it is, You'll never see so many people lose all hope and money so often elsewhere.
In a Post Apocalyptic setting Vegas is not only going to be identical to new reno, but possibly Isolated due to climate change after the war, Nevada is after all notorious for its deserts. Las Vegas itself does not fit into the more orderly themes suggested in this thread, much less Post-Apocalyptic Vegas. Perhaps you should take a good look at what makes a Vegas theme tick.
Sure big syndicates with enclave connections don't need to be put in place, but the Drug Trade, Casino's, and Money is all part of Vegas and Reno. Both Towns Hold Similarities, Reno in its own way is small scale Vegas. The Corruption and Greed is what makes Vegas what it is, You'll never see so many people lose all hope and money so often elsewhere.
In a Post Apocalyptic setting Vegas is not only going to be identical to new reno, but possibly Isolated due to climate change after the war, Nevada is after all notorious for its deserts. Las Vegas itself does not fit into the more orderly themes suggested in this thread, much less Post-Apocalyptic Vegas. Perhaps you should take a good look at what makes a Vegas theme tick.
The biggest problem with New Reno wasn't gambling, it was the rest of the atmosphere surrounding it.
New Reno was great as a standalone location, it had some great roleplaying and interaction opportunities, but it was also very gimmicky, based on a '30s maffia feel and pretty illogical in a post-apocalyptic world struggling to survive (the scale of things, that is).
Gambling had very little to do with its atmospheric problems.
The problems with New Reno were both atmospheric ('30s maffia feel in a '50s look at the future world) and logical.How can you have the biggest town in a post-apocalyptic resource-scarce world running solely on hookers, blow and gambling. Where do people consistently get their food, how do people all over the wasteland constantly travel there?
If New Reno had been better thought out and there were struggles over resources instead of over drug and prostitution trade, it would've been much better. And now they have a chance to do it properly again.
That said, it isn't impossible for there to be crime in a New Vegas setting - but it is unlikely as what would make such a setting work is most probably competing factions and hence a general lack of laws (and thus crimes).
New Reno was great as a standalone location, it had some great roleplaying and interaction opportunities, but it was also very gimmicky, based on a '30s maffia feel and pretty illogical in a post-apocalyptic world struggling to survive (the scale of things, that is).
Gambling had very little to do with its atmospheric problems.
The problems with New Reno were both atmospheric ('30s maffia feel in a '50s look at the future world) and logical.How can you have the biggest town in a post-apocalyptic resource-scarce world running solely on hookers, blow and gambling. Where do people consistently get their food, how do people all over the wasteland constantly travel there?
If New Reno had been better thought out and there were struggles over resources instead of over drug and prostitution trade, it would've been much better. And now they have a chance to do it properly again.
Crime and Immoral Activities (lulz) are two fundamentally different things.BurntAluminum said:
That said, it isn't impossible for there to be crime in a New Vegas setting - but it is unlikely as what would make such a setting work is most probably competing factions and hence a general lack of laws (and thus crimes).
BurntAluminum
First time out of the vault
I do agree with your post, in the factor that the 30's style mafia was out of place in all reality with the bouncer sprites (As well as the mobster sprites found around New Reno) though it's fairly forgivable. New Reno was one of my Favorite settlements in Fallout 2, even with things that didn't fit such as Boxing and becoming a Porn Star. Even though these don't fit(The porn star Reputation especially), you couldn't say that they didn't work to make the city more interesting.
The Mafia as the 30's knew it is long dead, but several organizations have spawned from it, after the bomb it could continue to spawn from pre-war inspiration. Given the time characters like Myron are discovered, and build a highly addictive drug, which quickly spreads, in a Nuclear Holocaust people are probably going to have a hard time coping with the rougher world.
This is all theory of course, but if drugs are out there, and no policy on them can be enforced, the rate at which people get addicted will spread out. Considering that just staying away from jet is implied to seriously fuck you up according to Myron, your only way out is the Jet antidote.
Fallout has many contradictions within itself: Vault 9 vs. Vault Zero? What's the Brotherhood Really For? And how'd jet get to the Capitol wastes?
The Mafia as the 30's knew it is long dead, but several organizations have spawned from it, after the bomb it could continue to spawn from pre-war inspiration. Given the time characters like Myron are discovered, and build a highly addictive drug, which quickly spreads, in a Nuclear Holocaust people are probably going to have a hard time coping with the rougher world.
This is all theory of course, but if drugs are out there, and no policy on them can be enforced, the rate at which people get addicted will spread out. Considering that just staying away from jet is implied to seriously fuck you up according to Myron, your only way out is the Jet antidote.
Fallout has many contradictions within itself: Vault 9 vs. Vault Zero? What's the Brotherhood Really For? And how'd jet get to the Capitol wastes?
It doesn't explain how a society that is mostly busy just surviving developed a huge city built solely on luxury entertainment (Jet is an obvious luxury).BurntAluminum said:
Most of those contradictions were introduced with the generally non-canonical Fallout: Tactics, and the canonical clusterfuck that is Fallout 3.BurntAluminum said:
That said, ehm, what's your point? Whatever random stuff is thrown in is fine because there's already some weird stuff present?
BurntAluminum
First time out of the vault
Sander said:
Like I said it's theoretical, who knows what happened before Fallout 2? New Reno could've simply been another Den before Fallout 2.
Sander said:
My point is exactly that, just because fallout contradicts itself, the theories don't matter, New Reno was in my Opinion the most interesting town in Fallout 2, I spent most of my game time there. how most of the area's in the Fallout series got to be the way they are now is a mystery to me, but it didn't divert me from an enjoyable experience.
I say it will resemble New Reno no matter how you twist it, and that again New Fans will be hard pressed to find the originals, as a majority of stores don't carry it in the US, and to make matters worse most used game stores don't buy PC games anymore(Most have stopped buying Xbox games) where I am, unless locally owned, and you'd have more luck finding a Pirate Cart for the NES there(See Multicarts, Wisdom Tree/Color Dreams, and Tengen). I'm not saying that Vegas Should have next to no backstory, but you'll probably have to live with another New Reno-esque scenario with the Mobster-Esque characters, the drugs, the gambling, etc. I'm certain it will be more than a power struggle, to say the least, since the game is definately going to be centered around Vegas and will be forced to contain a longer story.
Worst Case Scenario for Fallout would be BoS(the console one) all over again.
We've been over this a million times in these forums: New Reno as a town makes no sense as it has no way of sustaining itself, it shows that there is a very long history of the town being like that even though there is no supply of any relevant resources.BurntAluminum said:
No one is saying that New Reno wasn't fun.BurntAlunimum said:
It's just that the atmosphere was completely unfitting, and such a shift in tone is bad for a game's consistency and feel.
Your point about there being other contradictions in the game is completely irrelevant. There being other contradictions does not make New Reno suddenly seem more fitting.
Lastly, how is this relevant to New Vegas? Why would they have to include the '30s mobster feel? Vegas nowadays doesn't have that feel, it didn't have that feel in the '50s either. Vegas is not synonymous with '30s style maffia wars, so I have no idea why you are pretending that it is.
Now you're just baselessly projecting your thoughts on a subject you have no knowledge of whatsoever, as you have no clue at all what the development will and will not do.BurntAluminum said:
Also, the Fallout Trilogy (including Fallout 1 and 2) has been recently re-released and is topping the charts, so you're wrong about those games being completely unavailable.
Not that that's somehow relevant.
BurntAluminum
First time out of the vault
What I'm saying is it doesn't have to make sense. How did local government ever come to work out in a post apocalyptic setting?Sander said:
My opinion is New Reno was very fitting, would you have preferred the casino's empty and abandoned? No Entrepreneurs getting someone to fix up the slots? Or to be run by a sheriff who somehow came to power in a post apocalyptic world?Sander said:
Sander said:
I'm not saying it should follow the 30's mob feel, but there are plenty of Mob Movies based in the 50's & 60's, It's not just the fact it's the mob, it's the Crime, and Leisure.
And you have any Idea how Development will go? It's my guess that regardless what we post in this thread, Vegas will hold great similarity to New Reno.Sander said:
I haven't seen it in any local store, I've checked frequently at: Electronics Boutique, Gamestop, and even Some Game Crazies(Which only seemed to carry crap like WoW) it certainly doesn't seem to be widely available in comparison to Fallout 3, Constantly after work I've tried to hunt down Fallout 2 in particular, with no luck. I'm fairly sure you'll be have trouble finding Fallout Radioactive in Europe, but I've never been, and probably never will.Sander said:
I understand what you mean, the thing is, we shouldn't have New Renos all over Wasteland America.
Have some casinos, some group who makes drugs and some raider gangs, but make that the extend of it.
As Sander explained better than me, Las Vegas has no association with 30's mobs.
Plus do you really want this idea yet recycled again?
Fallout 3 was a collection of recycled ideas and that got boring really really fast.
Have some casinos, some group who makes drugs and some raider gangs, but make that the extend of it.
As Sander explained better than me, Las Vegas has no association with 30's mobs.
Plus do you really want this idea yet recycled again?
Fallout 3 was a collection of recycled ideas and that got boring really really fast.
BurntAluminum said:
I'm pretty sure those chains carry the recently rereleased Fallout Trilogy.
Username said:
That's morals, not crime. Crime indicates law. That means that - in Fallout - it only exists in places like Junktown or NCR, or the Hub if the Sheriff could be arsed.
Yes, it does. It's called verisimilitude. Even a fictional world has to make sense up to a point, otherwise you can't maintain a suspension of disbelief.BurntAluminum said:
Ehm, it didn't. Every town throughout Fallout and Fallout 2 have different styles of authority, some don't at all.BurntAluminum said:
How is empty casinos the only option other than '30s style maffia? How is this even remotely relevant to what I said?BurntAluminum said:
All I said was that the atmosphere/graphical style didn't fit, and that the town as presented didn't make sense. It doesn't mean that casinos have to be empty, but it means that a city that *only* has entertainment as a means of survival is not a sensible city in a post-apocalyptic world.
I'm not disputing the fact that crime and entertainment are fundamental parts of Las Vegas.BurntAluminum said:
No, but then again, I'm not claiming to know with a high degree of certainty what development will be like.BurntAluminum said:
Your baseless conjecture has been noted.BurntAluminum said:
Don't take my word for it, look at the sales charts.BurntAluminum said: