Let's Talk About The FEV Virus

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by The King of The Worms, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    Just gonna comment for a bit: the fact that you're involved with the opposing wiki lend credence on your point against Nukapedia? I've got no bearing on the discussion and only wants to observe the discussion but you did mention that you are involved with the Vault wiki so you may want to do better than cite articles that you mentioned having a role in writing them up.

    Others (not me since I have no bearing in this discussion) may regard it as cyclical confirmation bias (i.e "I am right because the citeable links that I have interpreted and written say so).

    Also, the link doesn't work on my end.

    EDIT: Also gonna unwatch this thread since I've been ignoring the OP for a while now.
  2. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    So you believe that people who have different opinions to you are sad and nostalgic?, How far have you fallen Tagaziel?

    Also, the current moderators do enforce a standard. They ban shitposters when they come out and don't tolerate people spamming the forums. They are reasonable figures who enforce a generous and fair standard, rather than the insane "Everyone who does something even slightly wrong gets banned" reign that you and Sander enforced all those years ago.

    You're a clever guy, and I respect that, and I respect you coming here and defending Fallout 4 and am happy to continue this debate with you, but please stop threatening to abuse your moderating powers.
    I do respect disagreement.

    I don't respect people misusing admin powers for petty things, such as threatening to change the avatar of someone purely for saying that they "burned you", and reply-banning a thread purely because you disagreed with the wording of the title. If you can't see how petty those things are, then I don't see any hope for you as being a respectable admin.

    If you continue to defend Fallout 4 (Although if you could tone down the personal attacks a bit, and maybe be less of an ass about how right you assume you are) I will respect that, and hopefully get better at researching my points.

    Just don't threaten a user with a avatar change, or reply-ban threads you don't like the title of.

    (BTW, this apparently isn't the first time you've done petty things with your moderating powers http://fallout.wikia.com/Forum:Rights_removal_request:Tagaziel)
    Ok, maybe this is a bad example.

    But why make robots that think like humans and act like humans, instead of IDK miniturising ZAX computers.

    ZAX Computers can think about advanced things. Miniaturise them and put them in a Synth Body. Surely that would be leagues easier than making a self-aware robot with the capacity to rebel agianst its masters.
    Except there's a big difference between a couple of Frumentarii breaking in to your ranks, being aware they are in your ranks, and actively doing investigations in to who they are.

    And being completely oblivious that these robots that keep going rogue may be a threat to you. Like, if your workers keep running away, and keep believing they are independent, maybe, just maybe they will rebel against you. That doesn't take a genius to figure out.
    I mean, if you took the time to actually play Fallout 2, you'd see that one person on a terminal can assign orders to a Handy, and since it can be done remotely, it can be done to a network of Handies too.

    If you took the time to actually play Fallout New Vegas, you'd see that one person can repair a disfunctional Mr Handy.

    How about playing these games, to see that it would literally require a team of 2 people, a few spare parts and a few recharging pods to maintain Mr Handies. It wouldn't require many people at all to do all that would it now?

    I mean I get that you've never played 1, 2 and New Vegas and have an irrational bias against reading in to there lore, but maybe you should look and listen what these games actually involve. You might find it useful in finding out the lore of the series.

    Not saying that they'd be a good replacement, you proved me wrong there, just saying that if you played these games, you'd know how Handies worked.

    "Anyone who played the game and listened to it"

    You are overconfident in your own rightness.

    Look, Tagaziel, I did play it, and I did listen to it, and I did try and read up on it afterwards, but please realise that just because you think a piece of lore was obvious doesn't mean it is. I did read in a lot of lore, I realise that the Boston Bugle had an article on the Enclave, and I read all the terminals about Supermutants and how the Institute marked them before sending them to the surface. I found the Mirelurk training terminal, I talked to Moe about Baseball and tried all the options because I thought it was funny how Strong

    Having slight misinformation here and there doesn't make me ignorant, it means that you have the natural advantage because you love the game and someone who loves the game reads extensively whereas someone who hates it reads it to the degree that they know how bad it is.

    You don't need to be an ass about this, and constantly accuse me of being ignorant. I do try, but I missed what maybe to you an obvious thing. That doesn't make me a moron and I don't appreciate being treated like one.
    And let you parade around like this was a good addition to the series?

    I don't want Fallout 4 to be remembered as a good installment. I want to fight back against it like the older fans fought back against Fallout 3, for taking a series I loved ever since New Vegas came out and turning it in to a Mass Effect Bootleg, crushing all the things that made it enjoyable.

    Also, I feel like we're going over the same points over and over again, without really going anywhere and majorly derailing this thread, so I'm going to make a new thread with a few things I found poor quality in Fallout 4 and @ tag you in it.
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  3. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    I cite these articles because they contain all the sources I could find on the subject. The citations make or break a wiki. To try and propose a site where anyone can write anything, with no expectations of sourcing their clams... Yeah.

    One of their editors invented a "Battle of Redding" and added it everywhere on the site, with nobody really verifying the claim.

    People who have different opinions aren't.

    People who have been sitting on a forum bitching about current games being shit, some of whom have been doing it for nearly ten years (or longer) are.

    We didn't, actually. Given that you're here since 2015 you can't really remember that.

    Or maybe you're a re-register, which is a violation of long standing site rules.

    Regardless, ask yourself why I have to invoke my position. Maybe it's the fact that, by your own admission, you're arguing from a position of hate and ignorance and that's not conductive to a healthy discussion on the forums.

    Make me.

    Oh wait, you can't.

    Except through showing me the courtesy of doing your research and making an actual argument, instead of repeating that people should wipe their bums with leaves, because they work just as well as paper and don't need trees to be killed.

    Or what?

    I'm sorry enforcing a certain standard on the forums offends your feelings, but terms like "Bethesda apologist" are mind-bending idiocy. And FYI, I wasn't reply-banning the thread. I simply moved it to a more appropriate forum and renamed it so that it isn't a case of perpetuating the very same thing that drives most new people away from the forum.

    And before you complain, as an admin I've heard way too many reports that this community is too toxic for people to bother. Toxic waste gets shoveled away.

    This was a witch hunt meant to eject me from the site and it succeeded insofar I gave up on it. And if you can't tell, the asshole in question was a professed Neo-Nazi, publicly denying the Holocaust and spreading his vile ideology on the site.

    Which, apparently, is perfectly OK, because Tagaziel is bad, mmkay.

    Thus creating a Gen3 synth - perhaps something even greater, as ZAX is quite a bit smarter than the average human.

    I've repeated this several times and I will say it again: The game doesn't provide an answer as to whether the synths are sentient human beings or just sophisticated robots. That's a judgement you're supposed to make. The Institute considers escapes a malfunction or a quirk in the programming, resulting from the sophistication of the onboard software - an acceptable tradeoff for the synth's ultimate versatility. Railroad thinks its free will and makes an argument for it.

    You answer that question. Maybe they are really just sophisticated machines and the notion of freedom is a virus or a bug, rather than a feature. What Liam Binet does is infect more synths with the virus, warping their structure. Or maybe they are artificial humans, genuinely desiring freedom.

    There is conflicting information here, on purpose. To do it any other way would clearly establish good guys and bad guys in the story, something the writers consciously avoided.

    You're overestimating the scale of escapes by a vast, vast margin.



    2273: Five synths escaped. A year and a half's worth of escapes. Three synths per year between roughly 2266 to 2276.

    2279: Two escapes.

    2280: Two escapes. Gen1 presence reduced.

    2281: Same.

    2282: Same.

    2283: Liam Binet starts his mole work. 5 escapes.

    2284: 8.

    2285: 4.

    2287: 9 until October.

    And before you start going "wah wah wah marginal why do they bother helping people!!!!", the Railroad's ultimate goal is to take out the Institute wholesale, as evidenced by the repeated references to finding the Institute's location.

    See, point is, the Institute considers the Railroad a nuisance, slapping it down every couple of years (hell, it might as well be that the Railroad was founded by a dissident Institute scientist, with the origins lost in the many crackdowns and relocations, which is something Desdemona notes in her entry). Patriot's a problem (and you can actually expose him with Plugging the Leak), but with the synth escapes

    Are you serious?

    Two people enough to maintain a fleet of highly advanced robots?

    Do you wonder why I call you ignorant? That's because you are. Costs and time needed for tasks scales up with the size of the task. One Mr Handy can be controlled and maintained by one person, but you're asking the Institute to replace its entire workforce with shoddy pre-War tech, devoting an entire department to maintaining pre-War technology, manufacturing pre-War components, debugging pre-War software, repairing pre-War stuff, just so that it can have inferior, mechanical robots, rather than organic machines that are superior for reasons already outlined.

    Want an example? SAD. A facility filled with robots that functions because it has an entirely separate AI in charge of the robots, a vast repair bay dedicated purely to repairing robots, and an army of robots still intact because it was specifically built as an automated defense base. And even this base is going to eventuall fail because, get this, it has a limited stock of spare parts.

    That's where your argument fails. A Gen3 synth is organic. Replacement parts can be grown. Bodies recycled into biomass or fertilizer (hydroponic farms are already present in BioScience). For a Mr Handy, you need mines to extract raw materials, especially rare earth minerals, you need foundries to process them into usable alloys, you need workshops to manufacture electronics, assembly lines to put them together, testing areas...

    Here's what goes into your motherboard:


    The Institute cannot do that - and it doesn't have to. With the synths, they can use organic materials that can be grown within its confines and assembled using its machines - and with the fusion reactor active, they can start synthesizing items (which is possible in the setting, thanks to the Big MT matter conversion technology; which, by the way, relies on a lobotomite slave force, not robots for upkeep and maintenance).

    You can even see this trend today:


    We are working towards technologies that mimic nature, not towards ever more brass and clockworks. This is also a part of the Institute's story and why it's alien: It's ahead not just of the wasteland, but the pre-War world. It is the point.

    That's rich. Keep trying, you might make me chuckle.

    I quite do, thank you very much.

    "Anyone who played the game and listened to it"

    You are overconfident in your own rightness.

    I will be an ass if you consistently respond to straw men, rather than the actual points raised and get basic points about the game's story and lore wrong. I've played this series for 20 years, I've studied its lore and contents extensively, to the point I can cite you facts without looking them up.

    You hate it. That's fine. What's not fine is saying that you hate it, so it must be objectively bad. Note that I don't present it as the greatest thing either, but I'm simply saying that it's a good Fallout game, because I've studied the story in depth. I've made connections with previous games, connections that are obvious once you are familiar with the lore and listen.

    Maxson is a reformationist, bringing the Brotherhood in line with its policies of 2161, when they viewed themselves as the only salvation the world has. To me, it's a powerful story, to me, as the Brotherhood has been dying a slow death over the course of a century. It's on its deathbed in the west, holed up in bunkers and trying to evade the NCR.

    In the East, it's reborn, not as a reincarnation of the West, but a new, powerful force that tries to draw on the lessons of the past. And it's not perfectly good and nice, just how the Brotherhood of Fallout 1 wasn't. It advances the story in a new direction and explores new themes.

    I used to hate on Bethesda like you. Then I realized that it's absolutely pointless, perhaps when I played FNV and Dead Money. The obsession and fixation on the past was ruining me. So I learned to appreciate new games with a more open mind.

    (I still dislike Fallout 3, but Fallout 4 really does put it in a new light and acknowledges that the Lyonses were shitty leaders)

    I've loved the series ever since Fallout 1 and I would like for Fallout 4 to be remembered as a good game, because it gets so many of the things about the setting right.

    And just so you know, you aren't fighting back against it. NMA is a footnote. You're only screaming impotently at a wall. Want to fight? Get a career in gaming, get hired by Bethesda, work your way up slowly to the top.

    But don't mistake arguing on a forum for any sort of fighting against Bethesda.

    (what the fuck kind of rhetoric is it, even? You are aware this is a game, right?)

    We aren't going in circles. See above.

    When things are pointed out, I fix them. Point? And check the body of the article before manipulating.
  4. Pointed out by you at the precise time when you're making a counter argument that denies an article you have no hands on?

    You'd think that being a small division charged with capturing escapees doesn't mean that it's its military. In the same way than the intelligence agencuies aren't the army.
  5. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Check the references section and the body of the article. I altered the lead to better reflect the contents of the article. It's a reflex, as I habitually verify the things I post about, so that I know what I'm posting about, and fix things as I spot them.

    It's not "a small division charged with capturing escapees". It's one of five major divisions of the Institute, responsible for surface operations. Yes, capturing synths is considered their primary goal, but they also carry out surveillance and infiltration, respond to surface threats, maintain the Institute's operations on the surface, domestic security, and so on and so forth. It's not a conventional military, much like the Institute isn't a conventional state. But to argue it's not one, because it also carries out intelligence operations is kind of baseless.
  6. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    As for the sentience argument, I think Curie makes a pretty good case. While she's sort of "jailbroken", she is, even in her robot body, a full fledged personality with wishes, interests, and aspirations. She states that her current body kinda limits her abilities like creativity and so on, which is already a sign of sentience, and transforming her into a synth makes her, by all means, sentient.

    Anyway, it's called "Synth Retention Bureau". Sure, they do other stuff on the surface, but their name kinda implies that retaining synths is kind of a big deal for them. It's also a bit risky for their functioning that not even their most important assets, the Coursers, are immune to attaining consciousness and fleeing.
  7. Risewild

    Risewild Antediluvian as Feck
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    What does all of this have to do with FEV virus? You guys are derailing this thread for a couple of pages already with the Institute motivation and robot sentience debate :confused:.
    I am not trying to backseat moderate, but this discussion would have been better in it's own topic since it seems like it is more popular than the actual original topic here. :V
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  8. The thing is the same with everything in this game. Where are their headquarters? Is the armory really the little shop at the entrance? How many of them are there? Do they have action logs? Which has been their impact truly? Is a room smaller than my quarters actually their HQ? Yes, there are assumptions to make. But it could be doing a better job at creating the illusion. Especially when you become theit true leader, they wouldn't still "keep information off the outsider".

    It might not JUST be charged with that. But it's all I've seen them do, and not even that often.

    it might not be, but that's the impression that I gathered from reading, listening and watching. You can't have everything in your head, and if you do, you shouldn't give much credit to the writer. Rather, to yourself for having such a spanning imagination and capability of retention.
  9. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    You don't.

    You are threatening people and reply-banning threads for no good reason, other than pettiness.

    Threatening to change someone's username and avatar because they said that they "Burned you", isn't good conduct no matter how you phrase it.
    I was reffering to THIS THREAD. EVERYONE on that thread understood what the discussion was about, and its a useful discussion to ask what we think from the Fallout 4 lore should stay.

    You reply-banned the thread purely because you disagreed with the way the title was worded, because it questions the authority of the holy Bethesda. If you thought the title was inaccurate, you could have changed it to "What parts of Fallout 4 did you think actually fit the overall universe?"" like Brivoo suggested. You were overly anal and pedantic about it because you were looking for an excuse to replyban the thread.
    Whatever that guy's political ideologies may have been, his claims as to why he wanted to revoke your powers are very much in line with the types of behaviour you've been showing on this site.
    This forum isn't toxic.

    People just see this forum, misunderstand what it's about, and cry about it.

    We treat all newcomers with respect, so long as they treat us with respect(Something you still haven't got a grip of by the looks of it)

    Maybe if you actually spent time here, instead of taking the word of butthurt people, you'd realise that there's nothing toxic about this place. But I forgot, regularly visiting a forum that you abuse your admin powers on isn't exactly your shtick is it.
    Maybe if you realised that I do try and do that, and not everyone who misses out a few details is a moron.
    That's my point though, that's exactly how you sounded. If you can't see how that's assholish, you are beyond help.
    So, apparently misunderstanding the point of one of the departments of the Institute due to the misleading name is getting basic points about the game's story and lore wrong.

    You don't have to be an ass over mistakes that anyone could make.
    The Brotherhood in 2161 were isolationists who gathered technology and preserved it

    Not "Let's shoot at ghouls and recruit outsiders constantly and pretend to care. Ad Victoriam"

    Also, that's far more likely Bethesda looking at complaints that they got the Brotherhood wrong, so looking back, and getting the basic points of them right, as opposed to a well-thought out story.
    I am familiar with the lore and do pay attention.

    Just because I'm not obsessively anal over Fallout 4 as you doesn't mean I'm missing the obvious or ignorant of Fallout lore.
    Such as?
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  10. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    Off-topic yes but I have to chime in on this: Why was that thread reply-banned? Sure it seemed like the usual FO4 bashing thread but there was some attempt at discussion at what parts of 4 the posters feel should be left in if Bethesda does retcon out stuff from 5 along with stuff from 4 that has been consistent with prior games.

    While it may seem pointless, it was still an attempt at speculative discussion between users even if there was the usual FO4 bashing present. It doesn't seem right to declare that Bethesda makes the canon and shut down the thread just like that. Besides, someone else may make a new one.

    On the topic, I'm with Toront and Kohno. I'm not too incensed about lore (though I would wince if there are people who attempt to push their fanon of Fallout lore as fact - i.e ghouls not needing sustenance because apparently different levels of ghouldom exists and the aforementioned Battle of Redding).
  11. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I mean even if the thread was the usual Fallout 4 "bashing", it's still discussing Fallout 4 on a subforum for Fallout 4.

    What's wrong with bashing Fallout 4? Discussion forums generally should allow discussion, so long as it's not cross-site trolling or stuff like that.
  12. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    I honestly don't know how you could interpret it that way. You asked why the writing is flawed. I interpreted that as a request, and stated that as the intention of my reply. Then I said I was going to be critical of the writing, and that I was sorry if I ended up giving you the impression that I was criticizing you personally. I wasn't assuming that I'm right anymore than you or anyone else on this thread has, as we all have our own opinions.

    "Are you seriously asking what it means, or are you being obtuse on purpose?
    Explained above: After the failure of the CPG, they focus on themselves, not without a good reason (though the means they use are morally myopic).
    Are you fucking serious or just trolling?"

    I am seriously asking. My main point is that the writing lacks something. Each question is something that it should be able to answer, but which isn't in it as far as I know. Perhaps I could have been clearer.

    "Explained at length, by me, by the game, by simply playing and noting that they've built a huge subterranean civilization from scratch, while advancing knowledge and science to the point they are the most advanced society in the wasteland."

    So basically they're just going to avoid dying. Like everyone else in the entire world. They aren't dealing with anything that is threatening the survival of humanity. They're just hiding, in luxury. There isn't some flaw of human nature, or of society to fix. They're just accumulating better material possessions. I suppose that was a silly question on my part. Everyone makes mistakes, but it still illustrates that the writing is shallow because that answer is...lacking in layers, or philosophy of any kind.

    "No, it's an example of you being deliberately obtuse and asking dumb questions that have self-explanatory answers. "Why should humanity be preserved?" Really?"

    Yes really. In philosophy that's an interesting question to discuss. Why are we special? We're just another carbon based life form that evolved on one planet among the (almost) countless others. Why do we deserve anything and what does it mean to deserve something? However in the context of Fallout it would be more like 'is humanity worth saving?' or 'can we be saved (is it futile)'? Some factions in the franchise have asked both of these questions.

    "So they don't say what they want, but they say what they want? You really haven't thought your post through, did you?"

    shallow =/= nonexistent

    "You said it above: Survival. In a broader sense, their survival is the survival of humanity insofar they're concerned.

    And the above explains adequately why they aren't doing what they're doing. The CPG failed (just why it failed is an open question) and so did the Institute's largest project aimed at aiding the surface."

    As explained, those are shallow reasons.

    "Right. I assume you also need a specific motivation, pecuniary, perhaps, to help people in a disaster? Or do you pull of an Ayn Rand and leave people to die, because they need to learn not to burn alive themselves?"

    They don't even say 'because it's the right thing to do'. Which would at least reference the concept of moral goodness, but is still a shallow answer. As it neither explains what is good and why, and from a writing perspective does nothing to differentiate between different characters or factions. The BoS thinks that securing dangerous tech is the best way to help humanity, and they do it to prevent atrocities. The Institute think that...they can't give up on them, and...I can't even fill in that second blank. What even happens if they fail? Oh right, they give up and decide that it was pointless. Deep.

    "Are you for fucking real? Do you expect a long-winded thesis establishing every single person who was a part of the CPG, including the number of warts on their asses?"

    Yes I am f or real. No, I do not.

    "Obsidian does the very same thing with a great many elements of FNV, implying, rather than stating outright. I don't see you whining that you don't get a precise breakdown of the military structure of the New California Republic Army, combined with troop dispositions all along the Colorado.

    No, you get some basic information, that it still has divisions and battalions, they're fighting in the Mojave and along the Colorado and the situation is bad."

    Is that your example? I'm not asking for a diagram of their hierarchy.

    "Same with the CPG: You get basic information that it was an attempt at uniting and stabilizng the Commonwealth, it united the settlements together, got wiped out by a rogue synth.

    Double standards piss me off to no end. Almost makes me want to break out Rosh's custom titles."

    How is the CPG comparable to the NCR? I honestly can't tell if that was your point or not. Do you mean like the Desert Rangers or something? Maybe whatever it was that happened in Baja? There's a fair bit info given for those than the CPG.

    "All of these are established by the characters. Not the writers' fault if people can't understand basic English."

    Kind of an odd way to end an esoteric statement but okay...

    "Now you're just trolling. The entire citation explains what being the Director entails."

    And yet you can't be bothered to fill in those specific blanks. I really don't want to patronize you, but I'm starting to get the impression that I need to lay these things out like mad gabs or something.

    "Reading Comprehension failure 101."


    "Rosh level increasing.
    +1 Rosh
    +1 Rosh.

    Yeah, see, whenever someone claims they are burning someone, chances are, the only thing they are burning is themselves. In this case, your presumption that you are offering a counterpoint is hilarious, as you repeatedly ask questions that the very citations you contest offer."

    I don't think I'm burning anyone. This isn't funny to me.

    "Since you're fond of burning, I can give you a very special avatar and rank. Just make another abortion like that."


    "And to all of you, if you think I'm a bad person or pulling rank, yeah, cry me a fucking river. If you can't have a reasonable discussion like adults and resort to being purposefully obtuse, you will get treated like children."

    If I go in the vats, I'm pretty sure with my luck this is roughly what would happen. I hope that's satisfying, or something? Still pretty confused here.

    Edit: not that it matters, but I have 500 hours in Fo4. So I have given it more than a fair shot, explored everything except Nuka World which I haven't played.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
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  13. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    For the simple reason that it was an unproductive speculation about things that will never happen. Bethesda defines canon now.

    This is your answer. If the site is to reverse sliding towards oblivion (it's already a joke insofar influence matters, far cry from what we once were), then a reality check is needed.

    Feral ghouls don't need it, since they're clinically dead and sustained only by radiation (the sources are below, but MARGOT makes it patently clear that ferals are well done and gone).


    This is supported by the classification introduced in Fallout 3, building on the lore from Fallout and Fallout 2. The unfortunate conclusion is that all ghouls will eventually die, with only a handful of exceptional individuals surviving with their minds intact. The diminishing numbers of sane or living ghouls from game to game supports that notion.

    Discussion, yes. Bashing, no.

    I'm not saying the portrayal is perfect, as every game abstracts things. For me, that's generally enough to get an idea of what the SRB is, same as the miniature Vaults from Fo1/Fo2 generally succeeded in creating the illusion of a vast structure capable of housing hundreds of people, rather than sixteen (32 is we squeeze two people into one bed :P).

    Hey now, are you calling me smart? Because I like Fallout 4 and that's apparently an indication of mental illness round these parts. :P

    I do have a knack for remembering things that interest me and connecting the dots. In the Institute's case, I've spent a good deal of time poring over the terminals and dialogue files, so it just comes naturally at this point.

    I think this is one of the limitations of the first person perspective, actually. If the game was isometric, there'd be no problems with suspending disbelief and we could take the SRB's size at face value (we actually do it for all the locations in Fallout 1/2 which aren't necessarily much bigger). But since it's presented in FPP, we're more inclined to take it at face value, as a representation of all that literally exists there.

    I don't dispute that, every game could be improved. But every game has a limited scope and budget and I try to account for that.

    (I do disagree about keeping information from the outsider, secrecy and scheming is a part of the Institute's characterization and what makes Li quit, if you want to procure her for the Brotherhood)

    If you behave like a child and go "LALALALALA I burned you!", I am not going to mince words or be nice.

    Reality check, see below.

    If I was who you say I am, I would've banned you two posts ago. But I don't, because as annoying and shallow as your posts are, they don't breach rules.

    That might befit a special rank, as we had a tradition of doing on NMA, but otherwise no.

    > Say this forum isn't toxic

    > Broadly dismiss everyone who disagrees with that as a dumb crybaby

    > Continue arguing it's not toxic

    Yeah, no.

    That gave me a chuckle. All newcomers treated with respect.

    You're a joker, I'll give you that.

    I spent years here, more than you ever have. Don't presume to lecture me on what NMA is.

    You don't. You openly stated that you hate Fallout 4, haven't played it, and wish it will be forgotten or excised from the series. That's not an actual argument, that's a hateful rant. At least you have stopped blabbing on about how Bethesda writers are dumb and I'm overthinking the game.

    Yeah, it is. As is judging a book by its cover. As is interpreting Democratic People's Republic of Korea to be a democracy focusing on the welfare of the people.

    I spent enough time over the past two days, writing posts and backing them up with citations where I can, quoting at length and poring over the dialogue files and looking up facts. You are obviously incapable of extending me the same courtesy.

    Incorrect. The Brotherhood of Steel in 2161 gathered and preserved technology, but it as a means to an end, not an end in itself. I offer you two quotes:

    "[The Brotherhood is] the only salvation this tortured planet and its people have. Without us, humanity is sure to perish." (Vree)

    "t is time you wore your own suit of Power Armor. This is a very special privilege for one so new to our order. Wear our Power Armor as a symbol of hope as you walk the wasteland, for someday when the world is ready we will surface and restore our battered Earth. Congratulations, you have made us all very proud. I'll send Michael the authorization." (Talus)

    This clearly demonstrates the goal is the restoration of humanity. Not hoarding knowledge. Unless, of course, that's an example of poor writing.

    Oh wait. I forgot. It's not Bethesda, so this can't possibly be bad writing.

    It's called evolution. Look it up. On the one hand, you whine that Fallout 4 isn't creative and interesting enough for you, on the other, you demand that it copy a faction verbatim, which would you then decry as not creative or interesting enough for you.

    I've already described it many times. I have better things to do than to waste time and effort on writing another reply to you that will get summarily dismissed because you have an irrational hatred of the game.

    By your own admission, by the way.

    If you didn't mean third degree burns, then I apologize. I assumed that when you wrote "give you the third degree", you meant achieving a total and sick burn. Misinterpreted your intention.

    Sorry. It also affected the tone of my response. But on a general level, you're asking questions that are answered in the game, sometimes ones that come off as being deliberately obtuse in order to annoy me. Questions that you would not be asking about FNV, for instance, despite it using similar narrative tools and implying, showing, rather than outright telling.

    I understand how you consider it as lacking something. My impression was the opposite: We often ask ourselves about how other regions didn't create something like the NCR, and the game explains how it failed: Due to the interference of the Institute. Everyone assumes it was a deliberate ploy to wipe out the CPG (much like the Steel Plague could have devastated the nascent NCR, if Rhombus choked on an iguana one night) and for me that was enough substance to feed my suspensions of disbelief.

    Basically, you travel across the Commonwealth, you see Diamond City and settlements (ruined or intact), Bunker Hill, Quincy, and it's not difficult to imagine that something might have been born out of it, much like the NCR was born out of an alliance of like-minded towns. But it was killed long ago, by the Institute

    Of course, the holotape in the Director's quarters adds a wrinkle to it, suggesting it wasn't sanctioned by the Director, who wanted to deploy androids en masse to the surface to stabilize the Commonwealth. I enjoy mysteries and the notion that the SRB or other hardliners actively sabotaged the CPG is just delicious from a story standpoint.

    Also, I think we can have a pleasant discussion. I see you aren't jumping to Jorgo's conclusion that you feel it's lacking, then it must be objectively terribad, so you're already on the level.

    Basically, they're going to avoid dying, further their scientific understanding and knowledge, preserve humanity and restore it beneath the ground, building a grand civilization while the dead surface lingers on. Their flaw is their moral myopia and the fundamental flaw of their society is the way it treats wastelanders with disdain.

    That said, consider the implications of their policies or using the surface as a Petri dish. If you use reductionist logic, every faction can be boiled down to avoid dying. The NCR is expanding to avoid dying. The Legion is expanding to avoid dying.

    Everything is fundamentally about survival in the wasteland. The question is what comes of the conflicts they inevitably get embroiled in as they try to survive.

    That question is beyond the scope of the game. If you asked that anyone, they'd say "Yes, obv", before looking at you like you were basically insane. Every human wants to survive in this world, after all. We can ponder whether humanity is worth saving, but that's a non-existent question in the setting.

    Of course, the question what kind of humanity is worth saving is a different matter entirely - and one Fallout 4 is askin.

    Again, reductionist logic can make everything seem shallow.

    Survival is not a shallow reason. Neither is seeing to deepen your understanding of the world around you or building a better civilization (philosopher kings!).

    The moral principles guiding each faction can be inferred from your interactions with them. I've outlined them repeatedly. Not everything needs to be stated outright.

    Showing, not telling.

    Because the NCR had identical origins: Settlements banding together and founding something greater. The Commonwealth Provisional Government could have been the first step on the way to establishing a state, like NCR did. But it was smothered in its crib.

    That's the parallel.

    Furtermore, as stated above, the game presents it in broad strokes. Just like many things FNV does. The CPG is presented in broad strokes because it's history - and an example of a failed attempt at founding a state in the Commonwealth.

    I can't be bothered because your question about what the Director does is answered, in detail, by Shaun. You came across as deliberately obtuse, asking me to repeat what Shaun says in the game. The same goes for the rest of your questions, which, to me, exhibit a basic failure to read and understand English text.

    So you should have a pretty good idea about the story and its characters, after listening to them speak and reading the terminal entries - unless it's 500 hours of settlement building, which is good and great, but kind of precludes learning much about the story or the lore.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  14. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Well, except that Fallout 4 shows that it's not only ferals, apparently.
    Also, it's not really based on the lore of Fallout 1 and 2, is it? I mean, there were no ferals in those games, at least not in the fast-running-zombies sense. Only asshole ghouls, but still sane.
    That also a bit of a stretch in the article, btw. It says that luminosity uncommonly occurs without degeneration to a beast-like state, but that can be seen as a retcon on Bethesda's part, since they, without any necessity to do so, introduced glowing feral ghouls, which is not really supported by the previous lore, where it was obviously common to see sane glowing ghouls.
    Yeah, Bethesda defines lore now, but that doesn't mean people have to like it or easily accept such retcons. Sure, radiation turns you into ghouls now instantly and makes you more or less immortal, but just because that's canon now doesn't mean I can't think it's fucking bullshit.
    • [Like] [Like] x 7
  15. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Guest

    Bullshit? Try downright retarded. Ghouls healing others with radiation is the most egregious fuckery Bethesda did with the lore.

    Mainly because it just looks like magic. Literally like they transferred the shit from Oblivion and colored it green.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  16. The thing is, Tag. You don't think that it's what we all were trying to do as well as we played it and as we've been even replaying and debating these two years?
    You believe that I didn't read anything that I got a hand on and explored every dialogue option even quickloading to get them all?
    And even if this this story was the case where somehow, all of us except some select few such as you missed it by a mile and missed all the depth and complexity, nevermind the basic coherency and current events, then it'd still be a big bad point to it. Making the audience get at least the base level comprehension without using stimulative drugs is the FIRST thing a competent writer should think of to get done.

    A good story poorly told is worse than a bad or simple story well told. It's just like jokes.

    Sigh... man, you really don't need to bring up the other games, I've told you. For instance, now that's biting you. Fallout 1 and later 2 were made 20 years ago and practically in a garage.

    Bethesda now is a publisher of several successful studios, and developer backed by an over billion dollar media company, along their "own" profits, and it's 2017. They've also had almost 7 years since Fallout 3, and even if we assumed that they started development later at, let's guess, over 18 months before release. It also must have an employed plantel about as big as the inhabitants in the town I live.
    They also created the 7th best selling game of all time. They are an AAA level production, for sure. And on the high end.

    How can you possibly compare the two? How can you say "well, it was the same thing in a 20 year old isometric game made by 20 people or so".

    Abstraction was a resource to make honor to the ambitiousness of the setting, maintain coherence as much as possible and, of course, keep the budget in check. I don't think Bethesda NEEDS this now.

    They have, or had, all the resources to make quite literally the best game ever, after yeats of their own experience as a long term developer and the going of the series and the whole industry going at the side of it. Even if the game turns out to be at least remarkable, that's just not good enough.

    FPP can be a detraction, yes. But game designers have spent ever since gaming was created working around and about it.

    You can't deny that Bethesda gets a pass for things that even indies don't now. I haven't even brought up technical shortcomings and the like, or the infamous engine.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  17. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    And who gets to decide the difference? Who gets to be the sole decider in whether something is bashing or discussion?
    Threatening a user with changing his avatar and name isn't simply avoiding mincing words or being unkind.

    It's abusing your admin powers to threaten someone.
    See below where?

    You replybanned a thread over disliking the title, and can't even bother to come up with a proper explanation beyond "See below", where it's not even clear where you mean by below.
    The thing is, we've never treated anyone toxically, we give everyone the benefit of the doubt and happily treat people well unless given reason to otherwise.

    From experience, anyone who whines about this place being toxic either A. Hasn't bothered to properly participate or B. Mistreated people here and acted like the victims.
    Can you give me a good recent example of a newcomer being mistreated in this forum please?

    Or are you just assuming that newcomers get treated like shit here when you have literally 0 proof of that.

    We may have been toxic once, but we treat people with respect here nowadays, and you can't prove otherwise, at all.
    See above. Give me a good example of a newcomer being mistreated.

    Oh wait, you can't, because this place isn't toxic.
    Except I literally have played it. I never said I haven't played it. I have played it all that I could tolerate playing it. I've got 70 hours logged in to it, which is the least I have logged in to a Fallout game sure, but enough time wasted to know that after experiencing every major quest, there really is nothing that the game has to offer.
    The Brotherhood are free to change, if they do it well.

    Take Tactics for instance: They justified the change in the Brotherhood. They were stranded and needed new recruits to fight Gammorin, and that escalated out of hand until eventually they started recruiting mutants as well.

    Fallout 4s Brotherhood's whole change can be summed up as "Genocide, lol".
    I admitted I hate the game.

    I didn't admit it was an irrational hatred. I have very rational reasons to hate this game.
  18. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Guest

    See this is what he is talking about. That is disingenuous at best. Be rational in your hate.
  19. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    How is that disingenuous?

    The only meaningful change that Fallout 4 adds to the Brotherhood is that they want to kill Ghouls and Supermutants and Synths. Everything else is mix and match from the Brotherhood of previous games.