Master or Enclave, Which is the better Protagonist/Villain

[Wintermind]

The hockey and football gear is rather forcedly Mad Max-y and I don't overly care for it myself. I also think that they're lack of development (and you starting out in NCR territory) casts them as villains way to early and seemingly irreversibly with a lot of people, which doesn't fit with the whole of NV. NCR is played as kinda of goody-goody off the bat, but you spend much time with time with your eyes open and it becomes very apparent how corrupt and un-goody they really are.

The Legion is pretty awful upfront, what with murdering a town full of horrible people (which is somewhat lost since you only really get to know how horrible they are from a few lines from Vulpes and the Mayor's diary on his terminal. If you got to go there, see what kind of a hole Nipton was, filled with a variety of unsavory cocksuckers, sent on an errand, only to come back to the Legion stringing people up and offering to be chill to you if you spread the word, it'd be a much more effective at that than it was. Like wise, all you ever really see of Legion territory are two forward camps and one main camp. Other than a few lines from traders and the like, all you ever see is The Fort, Cottonwood Cove, and Nelson. You don't really get to see a "Legion" town, and while you don't ever see a proper NCR town, you see a lot of them doing things that aren't preparing for the war to pick back up, which is entirely what you see of the Legion.

 

[BigBoss]

The Legion weren't technically the "villains". The great thing about F:NV was that you got to choose who the "villains" were.

 

[Wintermind]

The Legion weren't technically the "villains". The great thing about F:NV was that you got to choose who the "villains" were.

This is a point that a lot of people seem to misunderstand. Whether its because the Legion is poorly represented or because you start out in NCR land and don't get a similar experience for The Legion. Or maybe because they don't go WE LOVE FREEDOM and shit right at your face and aren't outwardly nice.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

The Legion is pretty awful upfront, what with murdering a town full of horrible people (which is somewhat lost since you only really get to know how horrible they are from a few lines from Vulpes and the Mayor's diary on his terminal. If you got to go there, see what kind of a hole Nipton was, filled with a variety of unsavory cocksuckers, sent on an errand, only to come back to the Legion stringing people up and offering to be chill to you if you spread the word, it'd be a much more effective at that than it was.

Great idea.

 

[Izual]

This is a point that a lot of people seem to misunderstand. Whether its because the Legion is poorly represented or because you start out in NCR land and don't get a similar experience for The Legion. Or maybe because they don't go WE LOVE FREEDOM and shit right at your face and aren't outwardly nice.

They aren't outwardly nice? Yeah, you mean by that that they crucify whole towns and compared to them the Enclave looks like carebears?

The problem with the Legion is there is nothing to save them. No subtlety to tell the play "Hey, don't judge them too fast! They might be good guys after all!". In fact, the deeper you go, the more you see them as villains, because then they talk abou their society based on slavery. Trying to say they're not villains is an insult to the intelligence of the Unity.

 

[Ghost Machine]

I never had any love for the Enclave, aside from their technology. They always proved to be nice outlets for power armor, since the only good Enclave soldier is a dead on. With the Master and his whole Unity plan, it's just a psychotic, manipulative, and forceful plea for peace, whether you wanted to be a Super Mutant or not. And that's the problem, no choice for the poor unfortunate people who where kidnapped or herded to the FEV vats. All just by force, or death if you refused. Even though the Master's intentions are based on a very good outlook, the execution is outright controversial. Even if everyone became the super mutant the Master had envisioned, there would only be so few intelligent mutants compared to all the mentally inferior mutants that would create the majority of the population since almost every person who doesn't come from/ live in a Vault is irradiated. With a mind-numbed population, manipulation is just as easy to practice than it would behind closed doors. In fact, I'd bet that it'd be all the intelligent super mutants, including the Master, that'd control the others in their population. All together, the Master could want peace, but he knows how FEV effects previously irradiated people who become super mutants, so he could always pull strings even in front of their faces and they would be ever so willing. And doing this could identify him as evil.

 

[Wintermind]

This is a point that a lot of people seem to misunderstand. Whether its because the Legion is poorly represented or because you start out in NCR land and don't get a similar experience for The Legion. Or maybe because they don't go WE LOVE FREEDOM and shit right at your face and aren't outwardly nice.

They aren't outwardly nice? Yeah, you mean by that that they crucify whole towns and compared to them the Enclave looks like carebears?

The problem with the Legion is there is nothing to save them. No subtlety to tell the play "Hey, don't judge them too fast! They might be good guys after all!". In fact, the deeper you go, the more you see them as villains, because then they talk abou their society based on slavery. Trying to say they're not villains is an insult to the intelligence of the Unity.

There is, you just don't see until you meet Caesar. Which is a problem in how they're under represented in-game. The NCR starts out all nice and WE LOVE FREEDOM OORAH shit, and as you get to know them, you find out more and more about how it's a hugely corrupt state run by plutocrats.

By outwardly nice I mean that Legion doesn't really give a fuck about you or anyone else who isn't in the Legion. They aren't trying to win you over on first impressions because if you don't surrender they'll just bash your fucking head in or crucify you as a message to all others.

Villains are Evil. They are the Bad Guys, whom you must destroy because you are the Good Guy. They are the opposition. It's unfitting to have to have anyone be the villains in a setting like fallout. There should be no absolute "Good" or "Evil", this is supposed to be a setting more complex than Star Wars.

 

[Izual]

I can agree on that (also, apologies for the typos in my previous posts) ; however the problem is in my opinion that the Legion should be complex, but is not at all. The same could be said about the Enclave in Fallout 2, but the Legion is even worse. I think it's fair to say they are villains. At one point we have to stop hiding the facts under a layer of "It's Fallout!" and realize that yeah, the Legion is evil stuff.
You are absolutely right about NCR: one good side, one evil side, hard to decide if they're the good guys or the villains. Even in Fallout: New Vegas. That's what is also really good with the Master too. The Legion shares its flaw with the Enclave, though. Nobody can observe them and think they're decent people trying to make the wasteland a better place. Yes, they are fighting for peace - the same way Hitler fought for peace: once the world is totally owned by them, then there's peace. That's simple and idiotic. As a player, I felt insulted by how the Legion had a billboard above its head saying "HEY DUDE. WE CRUCIFY INNOCENT PEOPLE AND EAT BABIES. WE ARE BAD. VERY BAD. JOIN US IF YOU ARE ROLEPLAYING A VERY EVIL MAN. OH GOD, WE ARE SO EVIL."

So huh, I don't even remember the point of our posts But I guess my conclusion is, the best antagonists of the Fallout games are the most complex ones. And on that, Legion/Enclave doesn't rate high.

 

[Yamu]

As a player, I felt insulted by how the Legion had a billboard above its head saying "HEY DUDE. WE CRUCIFY INNOCENT PEOPLE AND EAT BABIES. WE ARE BAD. VERY BAD. JOIN US IF YOU ARE ROLEPLAYING A VERY EVIL MAN. OH GOD, WE ARE SO EVIL.

I wouldn't even give them that. To side with the Legion in a roleplaying context, you've got to be a "very evil man" who also agrees with everything they say and likes placing himself squarely under the thumb of autocratic authority, which doesn't sit well with me. I always got more bang for my buck out of evil playthroughs by walking the line between factions for as long as possible and then siding with Yes Man. I'd say the Legion's only real purpose if you weren't slaughtering them was to provide quest XP to the sorts of lulzy sociopathic players who would normally have had to do without.

 

[Oppen]

You don't really tell the Master what he did was wrong, but more that it was all for naught and a waste.

No, you don't. Because it's implicit. He does think that killing is wrong, that's why he wants to bring peace to the wasteland in the first place. However, he, like most grey moral individuals, believes the end justifies the means, and he finds the means are dipping the capable of becoming healthy supermutants, sterilizing the uncapable, and killing the opposing. So, when he realizes the end is unachievable because dipping didn't solve the problem, the means becomes the only thing that matters. And the means were morally wrong, because they imply a lack of choice for most individuals, and death for a huge bunch of them. According to his morals it's wrong too.

 

[mvm900]

There is, you just don't see until you meet Caesar. Which is a problem in how they're under represented in-game. The NCR starts out all nice and WE LOVE FREEDOM OORAH shit, and as you get to know them, you find out more and more about how it's a hugely corrupt state run by plutocrats.

... Meanwhile. America.

 

[Wintermind]

The Legion is so utterly underdeveloped/represented it's a real goddamn shame. You don't need to be EVIL to join the Legion, you just need to be more of an Ends Justify The Means type and have a vision for the future, and not think that the destruction of tribal identity is all the big of a deal.

 

[laclongquan]

I dont dismiss the point that we start out in NCR sphere of influence that we have a more favourable view toward them and a bit more dark toward Legion. Still and all, based on factual events as presented by the game, I still think Legion is "evil" faction who will burn themselves out with the death of Caesar. Hell, The Khans has more "stamina" than them (in term of a societal model) despite being beaten like a redhaired stepchild in NCR. nevertheless, if they want to paint Legion as neutral, or good, side, they should have devoted a new game for that purpose because it's unsupportable in FNV.

Second point, I dont like the hockey/football armor because it's been too long since the Great War. Are you (devs) telling me that all those equipment still remain useable after 200 years? Hear me snort.

Aaaanyway,back to original topic, which is the 'better' villain. Obviously Master and the Unity.

The logic of Master is twisted enough that some smartass player can be easily tricked into joining them and get the bad ending. All because it sounds cool and smart. Heh.

And the fact that you can join them is a strong indicator, as well, since you cant do that with Enclave.

Enclave works well as a villainy faction, but it lacks the twisted sense and megalomania of Master, so it is not equal.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

I honestly wish Van Buren would have been released so we could have added Dr Presper to the list.

He was an interesting antagonist to. While his methods were really really extreme (wipe out the major settlements and military outposts in a second nuclear apocalypse) in the South West, he did have his reasons.

Yes, civilization had recovered but already it was already going in the directions of the bad old ways again.
And if civilization wasn't destroyed by some outside force it would stagnate and come to halt at which point it would eventually collapse from the corruption on the inside.

Not with a bang but with a whimper.

 

[Crni Vuk]

The Legion weren't technically the "villains". The great thing about F:NV was that you got to choose who the "villains" were.

This is a point that a lot of people seem to misunderstand. Whether its because the Legion is poorly represented or because you start out in NCR land and don't get a similar experience for The Legion. Or maybe because they don't go WE LOVE FREEDOM and shit right at your face and aren't outwardly nice.

*shrugs* They can show as much "traders" runing around yelling "legion made trade routes save!" as they want. I will not buy it that they are meant to be a "gray" faction when all they are is basically an army of slavers. Sorry. But the way how they act compared to the NCR and House just shows them in an very very negative light.

And you konw that old saying, The first impression counts. And that impression was, as far as the legion goes pretty negative. It doesnt help either that what you see form the Legion is very one dimensional while the NCR if not simply "good" offers you a MUCH broader view and depth. Be it from the common NCR soldier to their generals and president. It seems everyone has an opinion about the whole situation, where some agree, some dont like it and others seem just to do their "duty". This gives the NCR as faction a lot of diversity and a chance to actually sympathize.

I see the Legion like Hitler. I bet that Hitler saw what he did as "right", and he probably was even convinced that he saved Germany maybe the World with his actions. Doesnt make it better, when you consider the effects. Not really the best comparision I know. But see it that way, what you see from the Legion is most of the time is violance, and violance only, as means to achieve their goal. The radiate a town full of NCR soldiers, they crucify another and so on.

Things would have been A LOT different if they actually gave you a chance to see Legion territory FIRST, before actually geting in to combat. That way you had more chance to get a talk with the typical legion citizen and their lifes. Giving them as faction more depth.

*Edit
Not to mention that I really absolutely H A T E this totally ridiciulous overdone roman theme and football armor type ... which looks so out of place that its not funny anymore. Thats of course only MY opinion, but as far as their design goes, I liked the Van Buren artstyle a lot more. And this isnt made better by the facat how shitty the engine actually is Vegas had to use, as far as animations, faces and combat goes.

[spoiler:681684c1bd]

[/spoiler:681684c1bd]

 

[Radman]

The major problem I had with the Legion was that a bunch of schlubs in sporting gear (seriously, where did they find all those hockey pads?) had managed to spread so rapidly and effectively. Not entirely unrealistic, and I thought they made decent villains, just not as good as the ones from the first two (or, at the risk of sounding like I'm toeing the "Black Isle or nothing" groupthink line, Van Buren's Presper). It would be like if the main villain in F1 had been the Raiders.

That struck me aswell, the Legion to me seemed like nothing more then organised raiders, thats all. Their uniforms and weapons were horrifically inferior to the NCR's troopers - you'd have thought they'd have raided some former Army Supply Dumps or something along the way!

The Unity and the Master win hands down for me, you could relate to his plan and see where he was going but at the same time forcing everyone to be dipped and turned into horrific mutations added a very nasty edge to it all - infact i'd say a fate worse then death awaited the people of the wastes if they were forced into it (then again I seem to recall the master saying he would steralise the people who didnt wish to become part of the Unity...)

Anyhow the Master wins for me.

 

[laclongquan]

Legion's model is not Roman. I know Caesar say it and probabbly tried to build them like that but Legion is more like Spartan society than a Roman one.

- A very oppressive outlook based on the need to destroy Outsiders and oppress their slaves. Roman society had always been opened even during the most oppressive period of slavery. They used affliated barbarian tribes as auxialliary troops (calvary, slingers), and generally didnt destroy them as a rule. Roman main arm's of military is infantry composed mostly of free citizens. Meanwhile Legionaires are mostly slave soldiers, and only a few officers are considered free. And Caesar policy seem to be destroy all tribe, enslave all members.

- Roman army's control was, supposedly, civilian authority which were Senate and pronvicial governors. Legionares army's control is totally military figure: Caesar and his appointed commanders. There's no such thing as a civilian.

 

[laclongquan]

That struck me aswell, the Legion to me seemed like nothing more then organised raiders, thats all. Their uniforms and weapons were horrifically inferior to the NCR's troopers - you'd have thought they'd have raided some former Army Supply Dumps or something along the way!

And this give me a possible explanation for the football armors. it could be that Caesar know the location of a regional (state) branch warehouse of football protective suits buried from the Great War. Not production facility because that means Legion could have produced new armor. Since they dont which mean they just scavenged the suits. This also could explain why other regions dont see more football armors.

The 200 years gap is a big one, but we can squint abit over that.

 

[Gaspard]

I tried playing Legion, but I got tired and annoyed very fast. Also in NV I didn't ever play in the order they served it. I always struck north toward the Shiny Tower on the horizon... (In isometric FO games with maps for cities they felt more whole, but in full 3D I keep walking through them and exploration is a pain)

Now that I read some of this thread I realize that I still managed to get a pretty decent idea of the Legion as a faction.

In defense of their "hockey gear" and low-tech weaponry - as I understand the Legion was HUGE and on their way they assimilated all the tribes they could turn to their cause. NCR overwhelmed way better equipped Brotherhood mainly with their numbers - there were too few BOS on the scene.

Unlike NCR the Legion made use of a healthy network of spies and infiltrators (the couriers for example) who, in addition to gathering intel, managed to sabotage their comm stations and supply lines.
In the process they also tried to turn the enemy factions against each other (if G. Khans, originally from Vegas, pressed NCR from behind during the battle...) and kept the trade routes going (supply in and "good word" out) by keeping them safe from raiders 'n robbers.

Although I do agree that the hockey/football gear's rather redundant - but this one's on the (concept) artists. That's a whole new discussion right there: "let's blame the artists".

Now, if you look at the SIX games: FO, FO2, Tactics, Van Buren, FO3 and FO:NV with their villains, respectively: the Master, Enclave, Calculator, Victor Presper, Enclave again, Caesar's Legion.

I agree that Legion and Enclave are the weakest in the bunch. At least in the games their motivations and execution (presentation to the Player) aren't water tight when compared to the Master or Presper for example. Also in FO2 the Enclave didn't really have a presence on the continent. The Enclave as the end-boss was like an afterthought, while Master's Unity was present the whole time.

I brought the Calculator in here as a superbad example - FO2 had Skynet as a tongue in cheek reference, but there was definitely no fucking need to invade the Wastes Terminator-style.
Enclave and their agendas in FO3 were shit - it is discussed in the news section quite thoroughly right now so I won't get into it any more.

Personally, the first game did it best - my vote is for the Master and Unity and their mutant army.

On another note:[spoiler:56c749723e]
I used to be very sad that Tactics story was so crap. In a combat game the little story that was there could have been better õ_o

I think that for a Fallout setting tactics game it would make more sense for a squad of mercenaries that take jobs from bigger factions, let's say, the NCR or Reno families or Vault City and offer the player the choice of either taking sides or undermining their authority by fighting for the people instead, guerrilla style.

In the end the Player would have the satisfaction of seeing how their actions influenced the politics and life in the Wasteland.

Tactics had those worthless "factions" like Raiders, Beast Lords and Ghouls, Reavers, Supermutants and then Robots...

They had Enforcers as well and I think the best faction for the Player's squad would have been the Enforcers instead of BOS[/spoiler:56c749723e]

 

[bitwise]

Of course taste is a huge part of this, but I'd like to share mine. Overall plans and organizations aside, as far as a singular character villain goes, The Master is one of my favourite villains from any game (or even any medium).

I love the main voice actor for him, I love the way that they visually depicted him looking like a biology experiment gone horribly wrong (even far more disturbing than your run of the mill Super Mutants, who are pretty gross as it is), and I love the way his consciousness was tied to a computer and his different sides would speak.

I love that, even with how horrifying he was, the player could appeal to his humanity and he would legitimately look at the error of his ways. They showed that same unfortunate man he was in his back-story filled with regret, and it gave him the chance to be a hero of Fallout 1 -- rather than you forcibly killing him and destroying his complex, he commits suicide in order to himself undo the evil that's been wrought.

Never have I felt more powerful in a video game than convincing a well-written villain to do the right thing; an experience far more gratifying than a run-of-the-mill final boss fight that so many other RPGs anticlimactically offer.