More mud on the already tarnished reputation of Israels Army

The Guardian said:
Of course, what kind of person would I be if I claimed the Germans to be an army at all. :roll:

And yes, I specifically meant the Heer were a moral army, relative to every Allied army. History is written by the victors.

Seriously though, compared to the Soviet Army, who cannibalized captured German soldiers, raped even their own women, and then supported the larget genocide (against non-communists and Germans especially in Eastern Europe), the Germans were saints.

Did you catch that?

Saints.
you're not too good at applying logic, my friend. just because there's someone worse, doesn't make the other saints. nor moral for that matter...

:roll:

your frame of reference is all garbled.
 
Oh yeah, the German army were saints. It's not like they supported and participated in the imprisonment and killing of thousands upon thousands of civilians. No way. Saints, I tell you.
 
SuAside said:
you're not too good at applying logic, my friend. just because there's someone worse, doesn't make the other saints. nor moral for that matter...
So the lesser of two evils doesn't apply to the German Reich? I think the millions of Germans who were genocided, and the hundreds of thousands of NS sympathizers who were butchered, along with thousands of neutral intellectuals, teachers and doctors who were killed or suppressed, would disagree.

Just be glad that Germany saved the other half of Europe from this horrible fate.
JunWisewar said:
Screw the who's right or wrong crap, Germany+so called pan-European force lost and humiliated because they're weak and steam rolled by the Allied(especially USSR).
It's essentially like an ugly, monstrous bully, threatening to attack a whole group of kids, with his own little group of "oppressed" children he's already beaten the crap out of.

He's then attacked by a noble, intelligent young man who sees the threat for what it is. Unfortunately the bully is 117 times larger then the young man. This doesn't stop the young man because he has a concept of duty and nobility.

Except for awhile the young, intelligent man and his friends kick the crap out of the bully, until the bully is joined by a bunch of thugs, kills the deontologically bound young man and suppresses his friends.

I'd like to see how you'd fare against someone 117 times larger than yourself. You'd probably fold like a pussy, though.
zag said:
The nazis lost miserably for following a moronic racist ideology covering up germany's need for, as hitler put it, "vital space". and consequently underestimating the rest of the world as "subhumans". They weren't heroicly defending anything for anyone.
Hitler didn't "put" it that way. Although Hollywood sure paints a pretty picture.

Subhumans were criminals, or in some cases enemy combatants. Your simplification of complicated Reich ideology is disgusting and childlike. Go read some Nazi primary sources to gain a better grasp.
What people have pointed out multiple times in this thread in multiple ways is that you can't judge acts of war in an ethical manner, there's nothing ethical about it in the first place, it's dog eat dog.
Easy to say that now when the Reich has preserved your rights from the Bolsheviks.
fedaykin said:
Oh yeah, the German army were saints. It's not like they supported and participated in the imprisonment and killing of thousands upon thousands of civilians. No way. Saints, I tell you.
Your grandparents thought so.
 
The "glorious" German army occupied my country and neighbouring Balkan countries, gave a good part of the country to fascist Italy and together with colaborationist government they instituted proceeded to imprison and murder thousands of civilians. My grandmother (she was at her teens at the time), who lived in Slovenia, and her sisters were imprisoned and deported to Germany to work in a slave labor camp by your glorious army. Fortunately, most people from Croatia and other Balkan countries, including both my grandfathers, rose against your "glorious" army and formed partisan resistance units that eventually sent your "glorious" army packing home with its tail between its legs.

An event that speaks volumes of the "glory" of Wermacht was a massacre of few thousand civilians, including many school children, that took part in Kragujevac, Serbia in 1941.
 
Ratty said:
Posting in epic thread. More neo-Nazi mental diarrhea, please.
"Za Dom" would have summed up that sentence much better.

Pavelic-salute2.jpg


On a side note, was the croatian people happy when Germany made them an independent state?
 
The Guardian said:
SuAside said:
you're not too good at applying logic, my friend. just because there's someone worse, doesn't make the other saints. nor moral for that matter...
So the lesser of two evils doesn't apply to the German Reich? I think the millions of Germans who were genocided, and the hundreds of thousands of NS sympathizers who were butchered, along with thousands of neutral intellectuals, teachers and doctors who were killed or suppressed, would disagree.

Just be glad that Germany saved the other half of Europe from this horrible fate.
what?

lesser of two evils?

we're talking about MORALS here. you were even talking about fucking SAINTS.

how the FUCK does the concept of 'lesser of two evils' apply to morals? yes, morals are abstract and subjective, sure, but set morals do not change by comparing them to worse examples...

for pete's sake, get your head out of your ass and READ what you're WRITING.
 
Dragula said:
On a side note, was the croatian people happy when Germany made them an independent state?
Oh, yeah, totally, living under a totalitarian puppet regime that cedes national territory to rival states and subjects its people to autogenocide does wonders for a nation's collective happiness. Truly, it was the closest we had ever come to utopia.
 
Ratty said:
Oh, yeah, totally, living under a totalitarian puppet regime that cedes national territory to rival states and subjects its people to autogenocide does wonders for a nation's collective happiness. Truly, it was the closest we had ever come to utopia.
Sarcasm noted. I was just wondering seeing that Croatia sents thousands of troops to enlist in the German army.
But seriously, there must have been people that saw it as good as well as people that saw it as bad?
 
Dragula said:
On a side note, was the croatian people happy when Germany made them an independent state?

What Ratty said. In addition, a good part of Croatia (Dalmatia) was given to fascist Italy.

edit: Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina had a generally positive outlook on it, as they longed to become a part of Croatia for ages and it was their dream come true. They were the majority that volunteered for NDH and German army.
 
janjetina said:
What Ratty said. In addition, a good part of Croatia (Dalmatia) was given to fascist Italy.

edit: Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina had a generally positive outlook on it, as they longed to become a part of Croatia for ages and it was their dream come true. They were the majority that volunteered for NDH and German army.

Thank you for a more throughout answer.

It was because of this I had to ask: "Germany invaded Yugoslavia on April 6th 1941. Most of the population of Croatia greeted the Germans as liberators. While loyalist forces were fighting in Belgrade, the Ustasha, on April 10th 1941, announced in Zagreb the formation of the State of Croatia with Ante Pavelic as the head of state. On April 11th 1941, an order created a home defense force (Hrvstako Dombranstvo) consisting of an Army, Navy, Airforce, and Police. The force was largely officered by former members of the Yugoslavian army. By November 1941 six divisions were formed and this would expand to sixteen by the end of the war. The Ustasha Party formed an armed force along the lines of the German SS that was to earn a similar reputation for brutality. Croatia depended heavily on its wealthier Axis partners for military assistance. Even Finland contributed surplus army uniforms which Croatian army was happy to receive. Croatian military forces and volunteers (Croats that joined foreign armies) fought largely in the east against the Russians and at home against Tito's Communist Partisans."
 
That was because Croatian people were oppressed and heavily persecuted in the pre-WW 2 Yugoslavia. Given that, anybody would have been considered a liberator (in the parts of the country that were not given to Italy, of course). However, it very soon became apparent that the only thing that effectively changed were the oppressors and the degree of oppression, and two months later the first Croatian partisan resistance platoon was formed.
 
It's essentially like an ugly, monstrous bully, threatening to attack a whole group of kids, with his own little group of "oppressed" children he's already beaten the crap out of.

He's then attacked by a noble, intelligent young man who sees the threat for what it is. Unfortunately the bully is 117 times larger then the young man. This doesn't stop the young man because he has a concept of duty and nobility.

Except for awhile the young, intelligent man and his friends kick the crap out of the bully, until the bully is joined by a bunch of thugs, kills the deontologically bound young man and suppresses his friends.

I'd like to see how you'd fare against someone 117 times larger than yourself. You'd probably fold like a pussy, though.

One word for your so-called Saint that UPHELD duty and nobility - Moron.

Your stupid SAINT got raped by drunken Ruskies and other Allied forces for "hurling himself like a weak ass lightning towards the enemy".


Right or wrong makes no difference, only logic or stupidity have difference.


To response what I'll do if I'm the one facing that bully, I'll play the waiting game and get stronger. When I'm successful in other field other than brute strength, I'll shit that bastard in a way that he thought God is torturing him.

p/s: wow wow wee wa~~ this thread is morphing into Stormfront's generic neo-nazi thread.
 
Ratty said:
Oh, yeah, totally, living under a totalitarian puppet regime that cedes national territory to rival states and subjects its people to autogenocide does wonders for a nation's collective happiness. Truly, it was the closest we had ever come to utopia.
Better than a multicultural meltdown and failure "Jugoslawia" became near 50 or so years later.

With the Ustaša at least your people were safe from Bolshevik scum and capitalist world financiers which has led us down this dark path.

You look back coldly on fascist Croatia today, because it's easy and convenient to be cool. But the truth is, your nation would be a lot better if it were fascist today, and despite losing Zadar and Split, your nation would also be a lot larger and united.
SuAside said:
we're talking about MORALS here. you were even talking about fucking SAINTS.
Indeed. It's other members of this thread attacking National Socialist politics. We were discussing the military forces, my mistake.

So what to make of this? The Russians in 1941 were cannibalizing German soldiers, and were little more than roving bands of marauding criminals (especially the partisan scum) so of course there would be reprisals, and the acts of the Soviet Army unbounded their nation from the Geneva convention.

Ukraine, and the Baltics more so, greeted the Wehrmacht happily, and some countries, notably Latvia, supplied huge numbers of volunteers to help end the Bolshevik menace which loomed over Europe (12% of their population, I believe).

When the USSR marched through the Ukraine, the citizenry looked on in grimace, the Baltics fought a guerrilla campaign against the oppressors until the early 50s.

In light of this, I can only see the Wehrmacht as a liberating and benevolent army, and to great extent, many of the soldiers were saints. Rapes were almost non-existent in the Wehrmacht, and the soldiers were always committed to a gentleman's war. Reprisals were only conducted if they were justified, such as partisan attacks. The Allied armies, on the other hand, massacred Germans based on their ethnicity. The Donau Schwabians were wiped out completely, and there is no more German corridor, East Prussia or Sudetenland. The Wehrmacht would have never done anything remotely like this, except with some examples like Südtirol, which was based on a democratic referendum, or areas of Slovenia, which almost any central European countries could easily lay claim to.

This is what I mean when I say that the Wehrmacht was composed of saints. They were on a completely different moral level than every other army. The blatant lies and hush-ups of the most horrid crimes against humanity, while multiplying the dubious alleged crimes of the Germans 100 fold only adds credence to this.
JunWisewar said:
To response what I'll do if I'm the one facing that bully, I'll play the waiting game and get stronger. When I'm successful in other field other than brute strength, I'll shit that bastard in a way that he thought God is torturing him.

Say you know the bully is going to kill you quickly in say...two weeks time (Suvorov), what then?
 
No, the strike was issued for your insulting 'lulz yuoe propagandized by hollywood' when zag pointed out calling the Wehrmacht 'moral' was idiotic, followed by your "no don't want to waste my time" when prompted for an explanation.

Now you're playing the victim card. How predictable.

Oh, on topic.

Warsaw, Poland

'nuff said. Get your facts straight, fascist fanboys.
 
Say you know the bully is going to kill you quickly in say...two weeks time (Suvorov), what then?

Start a Non Agression Pact and stick to it until the right time to fight back has come. Hell, the bully come pummel you because you're the one that start the bloodbath.


"Fired the first shot and initiating WWII while still incapable of really winning the war" and "breaking the NAP with USSR" is few of the long list of stupid moves made by the Axis.

If Nazi Germany didn't invade Poland but instead stay out of trouble and keep getting stronger, the Third Reich might really gonna last a thousand year.

p/s : Israel came to existence thanks to WWII holocaust initiate by our fascist fanboy's SAINT - AKA Nazi Germany. Things would go smoother if the Jew didn't have a reason to get the hell out of Europe and land-grab the Palestinian's lands.
 
SSteve said:
How strange, anybody criticize Israel, somebody shows up the "evil nazi" card. Then no more critics to Israel and everybody talking about the "satan Germany".
Indeed, contributing:
JERUSALEM, March 20 (Reuters) - Rabbis in the Israeli army told battlefield troops in January's Gaza offensive they were fighting a "religious war" against gentiles, according to one army commander's account published on Friday.

"Their message was very clear: we are the Jewish people, we came to this land by a miracle, God brought us back to this land and now we need to fight to expel the gentiles who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land," he said.

The account by Ram, a pseudonym to shield the soldier's identity, was published by the left-leaning Haaretz newspaper in the second day of revelations that have rocked the Israeli military. (www.haaretz.com "Shooting and Crying, 2009").

They were leaked from a Feb 13 meeting of armed forces members to share their Gaza experiences.

Some veterans, alumni of an Israel Defence Force (IDF) military academy, told of the killing of civilians and their impression that deep contempt for Palestinians pervaded the ranks of the Israeli forces.

Haaretz and the daily Maariv, which also published the accounts, quoted over half a dozen soldiers and airmen. The institution's director, Danny Zamir, confirmed that Thursday's published accounts were authentic.

In longer excerpts in its Friday "Week's End" edition, the daily quoted 'Ram' as saying his impression of the 22-day operation was "the feeling of an almost religious mission".

There was a "huge gap between what the Education Corps sent out and what the IDF rabbinate sent out", he said. The corps's pamphlets told the history of Israel's fighting in Gaza from 1948 to the present, but the rabbinate's message imparted the sense that "this operation was a religious war".

The rabbinate of the IDF provides religious services, including overseeing preparation of kosher food, providing prayerbooks and prayer sessions and religious counselling to any soldier wants to participate. Involvement is not obligatory.

RELIGION IN THE MILITARY

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR) has put the Palestinian death toll during the war at 1,417 -- 926 civilians, 236 fighters and 255 police officers. Israeli officials have disputed those figures. Thirteen Israelis were killed.

Israel faced global criticism over its assaults in densely populated areas of Gaza in the campaign, launched with the declared aim of ending rocket attacks from Hamas and other Islamist militant groups in Gaza aimed at its southern towns.

Hamas clerics have often called for "Zionist" blood to be spilled. The Islamists carried out dozens of suicide bombings in Israel before and during a Palestinian uprising that erupted in 2000, blowing up buses and cafes.

The Jewish state tries to balance the needs of its non-observant majority with religious tradition. While the military does not provide data on the disposition of personnel, observers report a disproportionately high number of soldiers and officers wearing skullcaps -- a symbol of Jewish faith.

One week after the Gaza offensive ended on Jan.18 Israeli human rights group Yesh Din called on Defence Minister Ehud Barak to dismiss the chief chaplain, Rabbi Avichai Rontzki, who holds the rank of brigadier general.

It said he had distributed a booklet to soldiers fighting in the Gaza conflict quoting an ultra-nationalist Israeli rabbi as saying that showing mercy towards a "cruel enemy" was "terribly immoral" and advising soldiers they were fighting "murderers".

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LK939777.htm

JunWisewar said:
If Nazi Germany didn't invade Poland but instead stay out of trouble and keep getting stronger, the Third Reich might really gonna last a thousand year.
Germany did not invade Poland until Poland began incursions into Germany and massacring innocent German civilians in the corridor.

Thus, you would be a coward by taking this stand.

Start a Non Agression Pact and stick to it until the right time to fight back has come. Hell, the bully come pummel you because you're the one that start the bloodbath.
Too bad reality isn't like Hearts of Iron. Germany already had a Pact of Non-Aggression with the USSR, it was only a matter of time before either side broke it. Viktor Suvorov explains that a Soviet invasion of Europe was about to begin in 2 weeks time after the Reich invaded. There was nothing Germany could do but wait and be annihilated (your decision) or invade and save Europe (Germany's decision).
 
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