More realistic Weapon Statistics - a call 'to arms'

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 and New Vegas Modding' started by Dubby, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. Dubby

    Dubby Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    445
    Nov 6, 2008
    I'll do the dirty work of the coding, since I know quite a bit about the (WEAP), (PROJ), and (EXPL) records and their subrecords. However I do _NOT_ know alot about firearm physics. So what I'd like, is for the experts here, is to help put together a list of ranges, penetration [in ballistics jelly/or other medium to represent damage to an unarmored target], etc. etc. and I will try my best to convey those statistics in the weapons provided in game. I can add more weapons, and place them in leveled lists so npcs will spawn with them - i can give them all their own stats, I just cannot give them their own unique model & firing animation.

    You see, with Quetzilla doing such a stupendous job with perks and traits, I've decided to focus my spare time on the F3C's combat mechanics... and that means weaponry. Please try to keep in mind that the game does not officially support a weapon using more than one type of ammunition. While this may be possible to correct, I've not yet found a perfect solution... so, info would need to be provided on a basis of ammunition. There *IS* fortunately an armor penetration calculation i can fidget with plenty (and other factors) to better represent our favorite concept of damage resistance & damage threshold. As far as I am aware, this is also something that can be applied directly to armor as well. Instead of a threshold, the best we may be able to attain in fallout 3 is a master "damage resistance" that would show up in-game in the pipboy, and numerous sub-resistances attached to the armor that further affect damage taken.

    This probably seems like quite the discombobulated rant by now. Anyone interested in helping with this?
     
  2. Necro-

    Necro- It Wandered In From the Wastes

    145
    Nov 10, 2008
    while having different ammo types is nice it's not very essential imho, especially when early on we have much bigger issues to deal with.

    The fact that you do x less damage because you don't have armor piercing rounds is rather irrelevant at this point.

    as for weapons, isn't it kind of hard to give info based on mythical weapons?

    also, i noticed there was a mod released on nexus that readded the desert eagle. might be worth checking out.

    if the weapons are based on the real counter parts as i'm sure some are getting the real names i could probably find stats and stuff as i know a few people in the insurgency mod for hl2 who specialize in weaponry (it's a mod about a modern-day fight against insurgents and is realism based.)
     
  3. Dubby

    Dubby Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    445
    Nov 6, 2008
    That would be great.
     
  4. Grave461

    Grave461 First time out of the vault

    40
    Nov 17, 2008
    Would you be willing to consider changing the Chinese Assault Rifle's ammunition to 7.62mm? Or to the 5.45mm round that the AK-74 uses? 5.56mm is a NATO round, which I don't think a Chinese/Russian assault rifle should use.

    At any rate, here are some links to ballistics that I dug up. I figure I'd provide the sources instead of just copying/pasting here, as the info would still be the same (but take less space).

    Here's a few to get you started...

    7.62mm round:
    http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=centerfire&cal=36

    10mm round:
    http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=centerfire&cal=36

    .308 round:
    http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=centerfire&cal=33

    .32 round:
    http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=centerfire&cal=36

    .44 magnum:
    http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=centerfire&cal=36


    Also, here are some online Army Technical Manuals I dug up that has all kinds of small arms ballistics data for various rounds:

    http://www.ammoinfo.com/downloads/tm43-0001-27.pdf


    Here is one for hand grenades:

    http://www.ammoinfo.com/downloads/TMs/TM-43-0001-29.pdf


    One for land mines:

    http://www.ammoinfo.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=89







    Hope that can get you started on the right foot. :)
     
  5. Dubby

    Dubby Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    445
    Nov 6, 2008
    Thanks for the great link, but infact, I noticed if you go back to just the [ballistics] section, they have a basic program that provides on the fly data output for various parameters. This should be pretty useful, ignoring the fact it seems to only use the site's products. ;)
     
  6. Gustavo Ganso

    Gustavo Ganso First time out of the vault

    40
    Nov 13, 2008
    I think .223 is equivalent to the 5.56mm, and was used by the FO 1/2, so, why don't change 5.56 for .223?
     
  7. TF

    TF First time out of the vault

    65
    Jan 6, 2005
    No offense but is fallout really the kind of game that needs the REALISTIC!!!!!!!!!!! crew marching in with the exact kilojoules per second on everything?
     
  8. Ad Astra

    Ad Astra It Wandered In From the Wastes

    139
    May 16, 2007
    Anything that's worth doing is worth doing in an insanely over-the-top manner! :) Anything that makes weapons more realistic and/or more like Fallout 1/2 makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
     
  9. Gustavo Ganso

    Gustavo Ganso First time out of the vault

    40
    Nov 13, 2008
    well, we don't need to discuss if this mod is valid or not, becaus it's a personal decision to use it or not.



    Edit: Unluckly I know nothing about weapons. Can I help with something else?
     
  10. Roflcore

    Roflcore Mildly Dipped

    581
    Nov 2, 2008
    Uhm I already got mods installed which change the most of what people request here (chinese -> 5mm, AR/hunting -> .223). I think the most important part is to reduce the effectivness of certain weapons against certain armors. that in combination with skillpoints which heavily influence accuracy and do not (at all) affect damage would be perfect. this way it would almost feel like fallout. than every rifle needs some sort of function (for instance, who uses a hunting rifle (with .223 ammo) when he has a sniperrifle? etc.).
     
  11. Dubby

    Dubby Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    445
    Nov 6, 2008
    damage tests that ive been performing suggest that there may not actually be an armor penetration statistic present on or for weapons (or damage).
     
  12. madcaddie

    madcaddie First time out of the vault

    39
    Nov 19, 2008
    Damage a firearm does should be direct proportional to its muzzle energy, if at a latter stage we can have multiple ammo types this can be expanded to have JSP (Jacketed Soft Point) & JHP (Jacket Hollow Point) ammo with lower AP and higher damage but as things are now I'd assume all ammo in game is FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) rounds.

    I switch the Chinese Assualt rifle to 7.62x39mm as the chinese have never adopted the 5.45x39mm round and have there own weird 5.8x42mm calibre they are phasing in.

    Are you also planning to ad new weapons? I'd like to see some of the current junk weapons such as the 10mm Pistol & SMG being used in game as crap cheap weapons made in the wastes that degrade quickly but are cheap to repair. But I'd get rid of the Fallout Assualt Rifle/Chinese Assualt Rifle and replace them with real guns when they are availible. We already have an Ak-47 & FN FAL (does not replace any gun and has its own ammo) in game and I imagine many more will be released in time. The AK-47 can be used as the Chinese Type-56 assualt rifle as its basically identical. The Type-56 has been replaced with newer weapons however it is still around in their army and I have no doubt will still be in 2077 just in time for the invasion.
     
  13. Dubby

    Dubby Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    445
    Nov 6, 2008
    creating weapons is not hard - the only catch is (for now) they have to use the existing animations & models... and they can't be junk-weapons (yet). There are a few "hidden" animations for firing mechanisms that aren't used... such as a pump-action shotgun. Yes, it exists, I found it accidently a while ago. It's in the rifle subset somewhere. I do have a 'small' list of energy based weapons on the todo list, but I don't have much in the conventional weapons just due to the ammo restrictions.

    Magneto Laser Pistol
    ....*Increased damage
    ....*Reduced spread [none]
    Magneto Laser Rifle
    ....*Increased damage
    ....*Reduced spread [none]
    Mining Laser
    ....*Fires continuous high-yield (blue) laser beam
    ....*Shorter range than other laser weapons
    Enclave Plasma Battery
    ....*Fires many plasma 'bolts' in rapid - though innacurate - succession
    Infared Laser Rifle
    ....*Beam is invisible to the naked eye, counts as an undetectable attack
    ....*Comes equipped with an (invisible due to lack of model) scope
    ....*Slightly less powerful than ordinary laser rifle
    Phaser Pistol
    ....*Can disable robots (sometimes)
    ....*Causes 'pulse'-type damage [further experimentation needed on this damage type]

    I also have been experimenting with using the missile launcher as a rock-it launcher... because the ammunition (AMMO) looks *identical* to the (PROJ) projectile... except for the exploding and the contrail and what not. But if that is somehow figured out, I plan to add at-least two additional types of rockets:
    ....Incendiary: (delayed explosion) causes the "gas explosion" effect when it detonates, survivors are also set on fire; moderate health loss for a short time
    ....Chemical: causes a large "nuka grenade" type of effect when it detonates, and 'poisons' affected non-robots with a serious (SPEL) condition that causes rapid health loss for a short time


    As for conventional weapons - apart from upgrades & downgrades to current ones, lay 'em on me and I'll try to make something out of them. These are the only ones I've "set my mind to" so far:

    Pipe Rifle (hunting rifle)
    ....*Will be a Junk weapon later, player will also be able to find one outside of vault 101 in the adjacent (abandonded) neighborhood
    ....*Uses 10mm, more accurate than the pistol, but not as powerful
    ....*Has no clip
    ....(the junk version, when the CS is available, would be able to use multiple types of shells, have nearly invulnerable weapon condition health, but suffer horrendous accuracy problems)
    Silenced 10mm SMG
    ....*Fires slightly slower
    ....*Has less weapon condition health
    ....*Can only be repaired by other silenced 10mm smg, -or- silenced 10mm pistol
    Jackhammer (combat shotgun)
    ....*Larger magazine
    ....*Less accurate because of more recoil
    ....*Capable of automatic fire that is still faster than the combat shotgun
    Shotgun (sawed off shotgun... but two handed, needs longer barrel)
    ....*More accurate than sawed-off "version"
    ....*Can fire both shells simultaneously (not really, just refire rate is really fast, but reload isn't - same for sawed off version!)
     
  14. Ar1z

    Ar1z First time out of the vault

    63
    Nov 4, 2008
    I did something like that with a mod i made (more realistic weapons) it's in the weapon modding post i made. there is a bug tho that made the weapons realy hard to hit... but i can fix it if anyone cares to continues from there.
     
  15. Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude

    Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jul 9, 2004
    As it stands, the current combat system fails massively. Hybrid fps-rpgs don't work, and players are left with a system that feels awkward on both sides.

    Since completely revamping the combat to suit the rpg purist isn't likely to happen; the obvious solution is to go in the complete opposite direction and make it an acceptable shooter.

    The easiest way to do that is to have weapons that don't perform like toys, and damage that actually matters (shooting someone in the face should kill or completely incapacitate them).
     
  16. Necro-

    Necro- It Wandered In From the Wastes

    145
    Nov 10, 2008
    i disagree, the idea of running around fo3 running and gunning makes me cringe, i'd much rather be forced to vats
     
  17. Roflcore

    Roflcore Mildly Dipped

    581
    Nov 2, 2008
    I disagree too, the enemy AI is way too dumb to be a decent shooter anytime. More RPG-elements and combat would reduce this problem while the FPS-approach increases it.
     
  18. Dubby

    Dubby Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    445
    Nov 6, 2008
    Actually, it seems the ai in -THAT- regard atleast, can be tweaked and improved with fine tuning of the... many, many, MANY combat related game settings. F3C does increase an NPC's accuracy with firearms considerably (with a few exceptions of course).
     
  19. Grave461

    Grave461 First time out of the vault

    40
    Nov 17, 2008
    If you plan on adding weapons, here is a good one that somebody made: an FN FAL:

    http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=569

    It has the loot tables and everything with it already.


    If you are planning on adding any weapons, I have a couple requests then:

    - Uzi
    - M-16/AR-15
    - Pump action shotgun (since you say the animations are there)
    - 1911 .45 pistol

    Also... what ever happened to the Bozar from FO2? I loved that gun! One more... what about crossbows? No wasteland is complete without crossbows. It'd be nice to see more crossbows than guns, really.

    Do you plan on doing melee weapons at all? If you are, there definately needs to be some more variety there. Machetes, axehandles, stuff like that.

    Just one more thing... do you think you could get rid of that stupid Fatman weapon? It's too gimmicky, I think. If anything, the Missile Launcher in the game already should replace the Fatman. The missiles as they are in the game right now are WAY too weak. I shot a Super Mutant in the chest with one, and it didn't die. No way that's possible.

    My thinking is: Remove the Fatman and "mini nukes" and beef up the damage and explosion radius of the Missile Launcher (give them that pretty mini-mushroom cloud), make Missiles just as rare to find as Mini-nukes... and please, for the love of God, change the name from "Missile Launcher" to "Rocket Launcher". Missiles are guided weapons... rockets are not. The projectiles in FO3 are unguided, hence their rockets. Just a little observation there. :)

    One more thing I thought of... how are you doing the damage? Are you basing the damage on the round? So for example... the 10mm pistol and SMG should do the same damage, since they use the same ammo. The difference should be in the rate of fire, range, etc.
     
  20. Necro-

    Necro- It Wandered In From the Wastes

    145
    Nov 10, 2008
    id want the combat shotgun to look like the combat shotgun from fo2, black, sleak and sexy ;p