Mr. House vs. The Institute - who wins? spoilers

[Someguy37]

Ah so the "Fallout New Vegas has unacceptable 'cliches' but Fallout 4 gets a pass because Fallout is built around stupid cliches" excuse?

Uhh no. I never said anything in New Vegas was unacceptable due to cliches, I only said that it was cliche.

Stop being so completely butthurt.

But the Synths- the actual army of the Institute- will also be attacked by the Mutants, who aren't that powerful to begin with.

Sure, but that's why you send the super mutants out first, then, once they get defeated, or if they are defeated at all, you send out the synths.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I can only imagine that Someguy doesn't see the world like everyone else does.



So of course he would have a totall different experience than anyone else when playing F4. We really can't blame him.

 

[Walpknut]

And the word butthurt has been written without a hint of irony.

 

[MercenarySnake]

No you said New Vegas was using the Howard Hughes cliche and you sounded like it was unacceptable but now any cliche in Fallout 4 is okay because "Fallout is built around stupid cliches" right?
Hell you treat New Vegas as if it's an unacceptable game the way you argue things like House's 'poor writing' or the Legion is based around a failed idea among other arguments you make.
Oh boy I'm sure feeling butthurt, WAIT I'm supposed to feel butthurt why? You seem butthurt because your arguments are getting picked apart and falling apart.

 

[Spacemunkey]

I say house wins because he has shown a willingness to not only recruit from the wasteland but also to negotiate with other major players, the institute hasn't shown anything along those lines.

 

[Someguy37]

No you said New Vegas was using the Howard Hughes cliche and you sounded like it was unacceptable.

That would be impossible.
A. I can't sound like anything, as I haven't made any sort of noise, as we are communicating via text, not by words.
B. Text, by its nature, lacks any sort of tone unless its explicitly stated in the text such as "this food is garbage" said character with anger.
C. Pointing out that something isn't a flawless piece of work, unmatched by even god, isn't calling it unacceptable, it's just pointing out it had flaws like everything else.

-House is a cliche, he is based on the same Howard Hughes stereotype as Tenpenny was in Fallout 3.
-The Legion IS based on a failed idea, specifically that of several old empires who attempted to try to change human nature by forcing everyone under its rule into a singular ideal, and this is brought up in the game itself.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/JacobstownMarcus.txt
Caesar thinks he can change human nature. Most of the Legion is following Caesar, not Caesar's ideals. When he's gone, it'll crumble. Might not happen overnight. Might take a few decades. But it'll happen. Basic human nature - greed, ambition, jealousy - will see to it.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Robert_House's_dialogue
By my calculations, his death will affect the shape of the battle for Hoover Dam minimally, if at all. The Legion's aggression will outlive Caesar. Indeed, they'll try to take the dam as a tribute to his memory. Given a year, they'd have him deified - but by then the Legion will be breaking down, riven by internal conflicts, a monster consuming itself.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/intervie...ost-mortem-interview-part-one-v15-105836.html
Lastly, with regards to the DLCs, I believe Ulysses is correct, a new framework of civilization is the only solution for the Mojave and the Legion and NCR are self-destructive institutions (the Legion is more a slow burn than NCR is) and both should be cleansed with fire.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Caesar's_Legion

"Edward Sallow created Caesar's Legion as an imitation of the Roman Legion, but without any of the Roman society that supported the Roman Legion. I've written this before, but there are no optimates, no populares, no plebes, no equestrians, no patricians, no senate, no Rome. There's no right to private property (within the Legion itself). There's no civil law. There aren't even the ceremonial trappings of Roman society. Legates don't receive triumphs following a victory. No one in the Legion retires to a villa in Sedona.
It's essentially a Roman legion with only the very top commander having any connection to the "source" culture, the rest being indoctrinated conscripts from cultures that were honestly less well-developed than anything in Gaul. Gauls are pretty sophisticated compared to the 80+ tribes. Gauls could read the Latin or Greek alphabets (Gallic language, obviously), had extensive permanent settlements, roads, calendars, mines, and a whole load of poo poo that groups like the Blackfoots never had.
What Caesar gave to those tribes was order, discipline, an end to internecine tribal violence (eventually), common language, and a common culture that was not rooted in any of their parent cultures. The price was extreme brutality, an enormous loss of life and individual culture, the complete dissolution of anything resembling a traditional family, and the indoctrination of fascist values.
Caesar's Legion isn't the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic. It isn't even the Roman Legion. It's a slave army with trappings of foreign-conscripted Roman legionaries during the late empire. All military, no civilian, and with none of the supporting civilian culture."

And you're butt hurt because all I have seen you take is take any perceived negative comment about New Vegas, regardless of if it was in the context or not, and go off on these massive rampages of
"OMG SO YOU THINK NEW VEGAS IS SHIT AND FALLOUT 4 GETS A FREE PASS BECAUSE DESPITE IT DOING THE SAME STUFF BLARG GRAB LOB!!!!!!'
when neither of those things were either stated or implied.

You are so over protective of you little gift from god its hilarious.

I say house wins because he has shown a willingness to not only recruit from the wasteland but also to negotiate with other major players, the institute hasn't shown anything along those lines.

The Institute actually tried to get all of the settlements and towns of the Commonwealth to form a new government, but those settlements petty greed and jealousy drove them to attack and kill each other during the meeting, and when the synth rep from The Institute remained the last standing, they turned around and blamed The Institute for the whole affair.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I find it funny how you call us butthurt for defending Fallout NV and yet still defend the Institute (who are obvious idiots) like they were well written and logical. Is there anything in Fallout 4 that you dislike in terms of writing? Or are the main factions well written and full of interesting information and beliefs?

 

[Theinnerfish]

@Dr Fallout

Why do call them idiots? They just created Super Mutants, not like just because testing FEV on humans lead to disaster three times (I mean four times since Institute failed too but how could they know?) means The Institute shouldn't try again.

Hey! Also they just created another sentient life form, what could possibly go wrong? They're just slave labor, it will be fine, don't worry. Hey, hey hey! did you see that newest model? One with very muscular form and Australian accent? That one is soooo cool!

 

[Someguy37]

-I find it funny how you call us butthurt for defending Fallout NV and yet still defend the Institute (who are obvious idiots) like they were well written and logical.
-Is there anything in Fallout 4 that you dislike in terms of writing?
-Or are the main factions well written and full of interesting information and beliefs?

-I don't think they were particularly well written actually. But then again, I don't find most factions in Fallout games to be particularly well written due to how far they go to parody whatever real world style of government they do.
-I dislike how few quests there are, and how few choices you have in those quests. I especially would have liked more evil options in quests.
-Overall I do enjoy the factions. I actually find myself more able to sympathize with each of their causes then the ones in NV, though the ones in NV did have a lot more fleshing out.

 

[Dr Fallout]

-I find it funny how you call us butthurt for defending Fallout NV and yet still defend the Institute (who are obvious idiots) like they were well written and logical.
-Is there anything in Fallout 4 that you dislike in terms of writing?
-Or are the main factions well written and full of interesting information and beliefs?

-I don't think they were particularly well written actually. But then again, I don't find most factions in Fallout games to be particularly well written due to how far they go to parody whatever real world style of government they do.
-I dislike how few quests there are, and how few choices you have in those quests. I especially would have liked more evil options in quests.
-Overall I do enjoy the factions. I actually find myself more able to sympathize with each of their causes then the ones in NV, though the ones in NV did have a lot more fleshing out.

- Fair enough. I find that their attempts at aping old governments make sense because they worked... relatively and making new government types is challenging. Also history always repeats. There has been no unique government type for ages now.
- Yeah that's the main problem in my opinion.
-... Really? Wow. I can't interact with Idioso Maximus (Institute), Killem Allus (BOS) and Makeum Generlim insecondus (Minutemen).

 

[KillerBee256]

Who says they would fight, they were founded by the remains of his alma mater. I suppose he would be intrigued by the synth tech. Apparent they can also transfer memories, they could give house a whole new body! You can't tell me that the idea wouldn't appeal to him a little. Honestly at the very least house is smart of enough to play nice until he could get any useful info and tech out of them before he turned hostel.

 

[Someguy37]

-... Really? Wow. I can't interact with Idioso Maximus (Institute), Killem Allus (BOS) and Makeum Generlim insecondus (Minutemen).

I see them doing more things, and more things successfully then
-Egotist maximus(House)
-Incompitus Atallus(NCR)
-Those fucking retarded tribals who needlessly enslave and rape women, kill the elderly and infirm, brutally destroy all sort of individual culture and ideals, and crucify anyone who opposes them for no real reason beyond MUH EDGE!(Legion)

-The NCR fails at literally everything they do, to the point they are basically cartoon characters tripping on banana peels.
-The Legion, and just about everything they do, is needlessly edgy.
-House and his ideas are just so out there, and his failure to do basically anything right, and his inability to get anyone who doesn't stab him in the back, makes believing he will get anything done near impossible.


On the other hand
-The Maxson BoS are dicks, and their hatred of peaceful ghouls and synths is a dick move, but they get shit done, without going into the extreme edgy territory of The Legion. Even while flying helicopters made of paper, they survive the crash, get back up, and start just plowing through the raiders, super mutants, ferals, and other mutants that plague the lands. They are actually getting shit done to make the wasteland better, and seem to be doing a better job at it then the NCR are. Even if they are only doing it for themselves, its helping most of the populace as well.

-The Railroad is naive, to the point even Glory mentions that mind-wiping synths and trying to integrate them into then normal human population is kind of a bad move. But at the same time, attempts to free thinking creatures from oppressors is a noble, and relatable, cause. Also, I just fucking love Deacon, hes such a bro.

-The Institute have done some pretty shitty things, like FEV experiments, and while they do some terrible shit like use synth infiltrators to keep people paranoid and fearful, that's only because they spent years trying to help the people of the surface with their Commonwealth Provisional Government, only to get used as the scapegoat when it fell apart. And even after that, they tried to deal peacefully with the people of the surface, such as offering to pay for the data recovered at university point, only for the people to turn around, lie to them, and try to go behind their back to sell the data to someone else for more caps. The Institute didn't just decide "fuck the people of the surface" for no reason, they tried to work with them, only to get blamed when shit went wrong. They have every reason to not want to help the people of the surface at this point. And even then, they have tired to keep their surface presence at a minimum. They could have gone full on Enclave, and started purging The Commonwealth, but they didn't. They only take power when needed, they try to recover synths who escape to keep them form causing harm, and only replace as few people as needed for their plans. The normal scientists of The Institute also show empathy for the plight of the people on the surface, and tried to get the FEV program shut down for years after it showed no results. That's more then The Legion can say they ever did to try to get things done without being total dicks about it.


I think my biggest problem with NV is that you never see any faction have any sort of agency by themselves, it just one massive "HOLD!" situation until the player does something for a side. You never see any faction get anything done, so it just makes everyone look terrible at everything. In Fallout 4, you can actually see people doing things, and getting things done, making them seem far less terrible, if not still terrible, at obtaining their goals.

 

[Plzstandbuy]

The Institute was poorly written and created fantastically ridiculous inventions teetering on the edge of magic. They have no real established goal, and contradict themselves constantly.

House wins because he is far more likable, fleshed out and well written, technologically advanced but still grounded in the Fallout Universe's capabilities, and has a clear goal while possessing a genius intellect and planning skills.

 

[omegaspruz]

The Institute was poorly written and created fantastically ridiculous inventions teetering on the edge of magic. They have no real established goal, and contradict themselves constantly.

House wins because he is far more likable, fleshed out and well written, technologically advanced but still grounded in the Fallout Universe's capabilities, and has a clear goal while possessing a genius intellect and planning skills.

Big MT anyone? Teleportation? Y-17 trauma override harness? Toaster AI among others?

What did Institute invent that is magic? Teleportation? Synths? Cybernetics? Cold Fusion?

And he wins because i like him more is not an argument.

 

[whirlingdervish]

the Sink personalities are not actually AI. They are akin to fairly limitted programmed personalities like Marvin from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.

The y-17 trauma harness was actually a decent idea until it didn't work correctly. It seems like a pretty realistic tech in a world where powered armor exoskeletons already exist. It's not much of a step to work on a program to give them autonomous control to recover the suit in case of emergency.

Creating a method for Teleportation is the goal of many scientists in the world and has been for many years.
Sonic weapons? Same deal.
Cyborgs? Same deal.

Big MT and the research there actually had a positive and well defined purpose in the world before the war, where it's hard to imagine crafting an AI menace and teleporting replicants was going to be beneficial to mankind..

 

[Someguy37]

Big MT and the research there actually had a positive and well defined purpose in the world before the war, where it's hard to imagine crafting an AI menace and teleporting replicants was going to be beneficial to mankind..

How is creating a robotic workforce that never needs to eat, sleep, and can run forever with basically no oversight, unlike the retarded Protectrons and Mr Handy bots, NOT useful to the pre-war world which was incredibly lazy, highly consumerist, and largely relied on a robotic workforce to do everything for them anyways?

What The Institute did was nothing more then a continuation of the already existing trend in the pre-war world to its logical conclusion. and unlike big MT. who went totally crazy and failed at nearly everything, the Institute actually succeeded at making the things they made work.

 

[PossibleCabbage]

I think that the big difference between Big MT and the Institute is that the Big MT staff did host some of the greatest scientific minds from before the war, who spent the last 200 years with essentially nothing to do but experiment and invent (and their ethical standards seemed to degrade a lot faster than their problem-solving). That they invented teleportation and force fields is is more or less fine.

But the Institute was founded by some CIT bigwigs, but just because the founders might have been incredibly intelligent, doesn't mean that the successive generations of their children and whoever else joins up would be just as smart. There's a big difference between people who grew up in the pre-war era than people who grew up in the wastes in that the former generally had a lot more time and effort to devote to things that are not immediately essential to their survival (e.g. science).

 

[omegaspruz]

I think that the big difference between Big MT and the Institute is that the Big MT staff did host some of the greatest scientific minds from before the war, who spent the last 200 years with essentially nothing to do but experiment and invent (and their ethical standards seemed to degrade a lot faster than their problem-solving). That they invented teleportation and force fields is is more or less fine.

But the Institute was founded by some CIT bigwigs, but just because the founders might have been incredibly intelligent, doesn't mean that the successive generations of their children and whoever else joins up would be just as smart. There's a big difference between people who grew up in the pre-war era than people who grew up in the wastes in that the former generally had a lot more time and effort to devote to things that are not immediately essential to their survival (e.g. science).

But why would scientists and genius, akin to Robert House who came from CIT, not educate their children? Why preserved in a shelter unlike anything the world has seen not study and actually promote scientific excelllence. The institute after all is a educationa facility as evident by some NPC dialogue. Perhaps the original idea for the synths(Gen 1 and Gen 2) was to explore the unhabitable world, to be able to rebuilt eventually. I actually like the idea, of insittute being this unique place in Fallout setting which was completely culturally isolated and was able in many ways break this 50-scifi -americana and to actually move the culture forward. Overall I think their goals got lost on the editting floor at Bethesda.

Come to think about it, what did the institue create? Synths, to work on radioactive soil and do what no man can. Thats a good thing, Gen 3 might be pushing it but why would scientists stop? They are scienstists, they do things for the sake of it, to prove that they can. As can be seen in the quest Underground Undercover(i think thats the name). Teleportation, sure why not. Cold Fusion Nuclear Reactor, which could be used to power not only the institute but commonwealth as well. And some pretty mediocre weaponry. Super Mutants, which as it seems was their first effort to make man immune to radiation, which failed, forcing them to work on synths. None of it seems that far fetched and logical in the fallout satirical and pulpy universe. Institute had nothing but time, they are hidden in the shelter which is protected from everything, even another war.

What about Big MT? Same goes for them, they were creating things for the sake of it almost from the start, i guess. However, while I like the dlc and lore of it, the stuff they created is non sensical which makes it very low sci fi. While Institute is high sci fi.

I dont think fallout is mutually exclusive to a single version of Science! and I dont see how Institute can be described as Magic!. That, admittedly, is one of the nitpicks I think people bring up when they are butthurt with Fallout 4. There is just enough lore to explain most things in Fallout 4 to not be annoyed about it, as much as I would have liked more, especially to do with Brotherhood and the Lone Wanderer. People need to be more open minded about Fallout 4. And that comes from a person who found the game lacking on many fronts.

 

[Someguy37]

Overall I think their goals got lost on the editting floor at Bethesda.

Shaun outright tell you their goals
A. Fix their reactor, obtaining nearly unlimited energy.
B. Finish the synth program, obtaining the perfect workfroce.
C. Continue digging underground, away from the broken and destroyed world above, which they feel has no hope of ever obtaining anything worthwhile.

 

[whirlingdervish]

Big MT and the research there actually had a positive and well defined purpose in the world before the war, where it's hard to imagine crafting an AI menace and teleporting replicants was going to be beneficial to mankind..

How is creating a robotic workforce that never needs to eat, sleep, and can run forever with basically no oversight, unlike the retarded Protectrons and Mr Handy bots, NOT useful to the pre-war world which was incredibly lazy, highly consumerist, and largely relied on a robotic workforce to do everything for them anyways?

They already had controllable robot helper monkeys everywhere, and from all of the in-game lore they were plenty useful and didn't need a lot of oversight as long as someone programmed them correctly. They ran forever, did their jobs and didn't THREATEN HUMANITY.

They didn't need this AI replicant idiocy, and it was actually detrimental to the purpose of having a 2nd class of mechanical helpers.
Creating a slave population only works if they don't know they are slaves, so giving them AI is just plain stupid.
Doing so would be setting yourself up for absolute failure, and spending a bunch of resources and time just to do so.


Just because Bethesda says a bunch of fully autonomous robots would be the perfect workforce, it does not a fact make.
It's just a stupid idea from so many angles, and when applied to a world that already had a better solution (non-AI robot workforce) it makes very little sense other than as a progress for the sake of progress concept. (which is as inherently flawed as their writing)