My Views on The Role of the NCR in New Vegas

I'm not saying slavery is right, but that the Legion are going to be quite sensible, intelligent people, who aren't going to ruthlessly murder/enslave everyone. Slaves are just another kind of livestock, and you've got to care for, feed, and control them. They're also going to probably pretty competent to have gotten so large. They're also not fighting a war on two fronts, and probably don't have to deal with much political bullshit. Politcal backstabbing, maybe. Literal backstabbing, that is.

Also, RE: Iraq: Iraq now has their own chance to setup their own, free, democratic government. Like America has! Like America helped them set up. Willingly or not. (If you did not hear tonights news, Operation Iraqi Freedom is finally fucking over.)
 
It's better than pretty much any British named operation ever. Okay, sure, it's no Operation: Gothic Serpent or Operation: Dropkick, but they would've called it "Operation: Scones.".
 
White Knight said:
Where was it ever said they were invading. From what I've read its a war over tech, not land or anything. The brotherhood dosen't act as judge, jury and excutioner, they just don't share technology. Where are you getting the idea they want to overthrow the goverment? They've never had interest in taking over. As its been said in this thread, they don't force people to join them.
Click to expand...

I am getting my information from the Van Buren developer documents, which I assume to be semi-canon for New Vegas since they have a lot of the same story writers and the two games shared a lot of similarities in their story lines.

In Van Buren, the Brotherhood's newest elder, Jeremy Maxson, decided to stop the Brotherhood's decline in power since the end of the original Fallout by wresting all advanced technology from the hands of "lesser people" by any means necessary. As expected, everyone outside the Brotherhood have a very serious issue about their new goal and this resulted in the organization turning a lot of former friends into enemies. The NCR found itself caught in the BOS's crosshairs since they are the largest power in the Core Regions. Sometime around 2231, the Brotherhood of Steel declared war on the New California Republic.

This sounds like a classic example of an 'unnecessary war' to me. Instead of getting powerful again by increasing recruitment or developing new technologies, the Brotherhood decided to stop it's decline by making everyone else weaker.

If there is any one that failed to learn anything from the Great War, I think the new Brotherhood is not that much ahead of the Enclave.

But perhaps the story of Van Buren is now no longer cannon and in New Vegas the reason the war started will be entirely something else. I guess maybe I am too harsh on the Brotherhood. Perhaps there is some other reason of them doing the things that they do. I guess I just have to wait and see.
 
Caesar's Legion: Everyone will be forced to become either a slaver or a slave. Turning the clock all the way back to the dark ages.
Click to expand...

No dark ages. Ancient times! Roman empire was best organized, lonegst lasting and had biggest amount of stable territory of all other empires in history. Hardly there is better example for how to create a country, especially in such regresed world as Fallout`s america. I love the concept of CL, always did.
 
@Chanklip Van buren for me isn't canon unless the devs say so, but considering the similarities in story between FONV and Van Buren, it could very well be that they do.
 
Mistrz said:
Caesar's Legion: Everyone will be forced to become either a slaver or a slave. Turning the clock all the way back to the dark ages.
Click to expand...

No dark ages. Ancient times! Roman empire was best organized, lonegst lasting and had biggest amount of stable territory of all other empires in history. Hardly there is better example for how to create a country, especially in such regresed world as Fallout`s america. I love the concept of CL, always did.
Click to expand...

I like Caesar's Legion being in the game too. However, they will be Anti Villains at best, and the major enemy at worst.

Legion may want to see itself as a a new Roman Empire, but from what I can see so far that have adapted all the bad things about the Romans and very few of the good one. Lets see what they have in common with the Roman Empire: Their name and uniform, their nasty habit of crucifying people, the thirst for war and conquest, and slavery. So far they failed to display any of the things that actually made the historical Rome a strong and respectful power such as the code of laws, civic virtues, philosophy, art, engineering and scientific skills, etc.

But perhaps the Legion does have some redeeming values. For one thing, their leadership is clearly full of smart and cultured people. They are knowledgeable to know about ancient history and perhaps other advance knowledge. Maybe the reason that the Legion is so crude and uncivilized right now is that it is still a young power. The historical Rome had to go though the Rape of the Sabine Women before they start to be more civilized. Given enough time for them to mature perhaps they will one day transform into a New Roman Empire or even a Roman Republic.

But if we are going to talk about here and now, Caesar's Legion is still one of the nastiest and most evil faction in the Fallout universe. I find the idea of helping them wipe out the NCR's presence in the East to be in direct conflict with my moral code. Similar to how even if the developers keep the original ending they had intended for Junktown in the first Fallout (murdering Killian gives you the good ending), I would still find it really hard to do something like that.
 
Faceless_Stranger said:
willooi said:
Uh oh...

I hope this thread doesn't turn into an all-out war of Pro/Anti-Americanism and 'discussions' on Iraq/Afghanistan. I sense potential.

Remember guys, this is what Fallout is all about now! The concepts of 'good' and 'bad' are not as simple as they seem, and are completely defined by context and culture where "the details are trivial and pointless"- and we humans are the ones who will *mess* it all up! Always has been the case and always will be... so please, no hate on this thread guys, and no overt, aggressive nationalism or incendiary baiting.

Give peace a chance :mrgreen:
Click to expand...
Exactly, point is, free will doesn't work. When people are left to do as they please in Post-Apocalyptia we get slavers, raiders, and highwaymen. People don't know what to do with their free will so they use it to exploit others. The only way we'll have peace is if we force it on them. WE NEED ORDER!!
Click to expand...

If we use the the fictional character alignment table, the master will fall under Lawful Evil. Characters under that category believes in keeping order at all costs. Think of Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars. Or the Patriots from Metal Gear Solid, who said something along the line of how people "doesn't deserve" to think for themselves.

The Unity's vision of a perfect future is nothing more then a glorified insect colony. Just like Megatron from the Transformers, his entire collectivist philosophy can be summarized with one sentence: "Peace through tyranny".

To paraphrase Augustus Sinclair from Bioshock 2, I find the idea of having my memories, personality and knowledge being stored in some collective brain and transformed into nothing more then a dusty old book in the library to be completely disgusting and unacceptable. Do you really want to be like the Zerg from Starcraft?

This is something that I always have a hard time understanding. By having freewill, humans have managed to evolve beyond just basic animalistic survival and created art, commerce, science and everything else. But some how people keep on telling me how freewill is somehow 'overrated'. Honestly, the fact that we can have a philosophy discussion is because we have freewill. If humanity is a collective that shares a hive mind, none of us can do the things that we are doing everyday. Positive emotions such as love, friendship, and kindness will be destroyed along side the negative ones such as selfishness and greed. Is that the idea of a utopia for you?

Anyway, this is starting to get off topic. This thread is about NCR's role in New Vegas, not the Master or the Unity.
 
Faceless_Stranger said:
Or greed. If one looks at Iraq now, they see a country of lawlessness and violence, whereas under Saddam, all was kept in order, maybe through fear, but at least there were no car bombs and daily suicide bombings. Iraq was also one of the most westernized middle-eastern countries. If the NCR were to attack the Legion, all the tribes united under Caesar's flag would revert back to warring and even though they would have their will back, more blood would be spilled.
Click to expand...

But if I remember correctly, Caesar's Legion were the ones who started the war with NCR in the first place. They did so with the aim of destroying the NCR's presence in the east since the NCR's democratic philosophy was in direct conflict with theirs (You don't really want your slaves to learn about the ideas of freedom and equality. It might give them funny idea about revolting). The NCR seems to be the ones that are having a hard time holding their ground and the Legion are the ones that are aggressively pushing west toward the Core Regions.
 
Wasn't war inevitable between the two of them? The NCR is all 'no slavery' and the Legion is all "HEY WHO WANTS TO BUY SOME SLAVES". If the Legion did fire the first shot, there's this thing called 'preemptive strike'. Look it up.
 
DirkGently said:
I'm not saying slavery is right, but that the Legion are going to be quite sensible, intelligent people, who aren't going to ruthlessly murder/enslave everyone. Slaves are just another kind of livestock, and you've got to care for, feed, and control them. They're also going to probably pretty competent to have gotten so large. They're also not fighting a war on two fronts, and probably don't have to deal with much political bullshit. Politcal backstabbing, maybe. Literal backstabbing, that is.

Also, RE: Iraq: Iraq now has their own chance to setup their own, free, democratic government. Like America has! Like America helped them set up. Willingly or not. (If you did not hear tonights news, Operation Iraqi Freedom is finally fucking over.)
Click to expand...

I agree. The Legion is much more suited for survival in a post nuclear war world compared to the NCR due to the militaristic and survivalist values that their society is based on.

In the short run, the Legion's way may prevail. But in the long run, they will have to make fundamental changes and reform into a new Roman Empire or perhaps even a Republic if they want to survive. Just like the Mongols in real life history, you might be able to conquer the world using weapons, but you cannot rule with just that.

Perhaps one of the only good things about the Legion is the lack of red tape in their society. But seeing that their favorite way of dealing with anyone that look at them funny is public crucifixion, I think I will pick the red tape.

One last thing is that the reason why the NCR is fighting a war at two fronts is not because they wanted to. The Brotherhood and the Legion were the ones that declared war on them in the first place! Look up at my earlier post and can read about the reason they started the war. I think you will agree that their reason is very weak for anyone to support.
 
chankljp said:
Legion may want to see itself as a a new Roman Empire, but from what I can see so far that have adapted all the bad things about the Romans and very few of the good one. Lets see what they have in common with the Roman Empire: Their name and uniform, their nasty habit of crucifying people, the thirst for war and conquest, and slavery. So far they failed to display any of the things that actually made the historical Rome a strong and respectful power such as the code of laws, civic virtues, philosophy, art, engineering and scientific skills, etc.
Click to expand...

Well... No you are wrong. What made Empire strong was the fact that they were more brutal, unforgiving and of course better organized then any other country. What made Rome great was great military leaders, supperior weapon and tactics. For example Greece was far better developed in scince and culture, but they didn`t stood a chance against Empire.

To have a place for developement of culture, law etc. you must first make you enemies affraid of you enough to leave you alone. This is obtained by lack of mercy for your enemies (executions and bloodthirst).

About slaves, they are cheapest labour force you can get. I`m not surprised Legion take slaves.
 
DirkGently said:
Wasn't war inevitable between the two of them? The NCR is all 'no slavery' and the Legion is all "HEY WHO WANTS TO BUY SOME SLAVES". If the Legion did fire the first shot, there's this thing called 'preemptive strike'. Look it up.
Click to expand...

And are you saying that the Legion's reasons are justified? Let me give you an example:

Jack is a contract killer that murders people for money. However, he is also a family man that use the money to send his kids to school and buy medicine for his sick mother. Obviously, his university educated middle class neighbor, Tom, takes issue with Jack's lifestyle and plans to stop him. Jack, feeling that his way of life is threatened, decided to take preemptive action against Tom. Jack burns down Tom's home, kills anyone in the house that fight back, takes all the survivors as slaves, and finally have Tom and his next of kin crucified on the front lawn of their house.

How is this in any possible morale way justified? Just because someone is defending their way of life doesn't mean that they are right. The Confederacy defended slavery during the America Civil War, and the Japanese in the Second World War thought that they invaded China for their survival as well. Do you think that they are justified in their actions?

It is like the United States vs. a primitive tribe of head hunters. The US may not be knights in shinning (power) armor. But any one with a morale compass that is still pointing north should know that the head hunters are the bad guys here. (I am saying this as someone that is not an America)

Just like the Terran Dominion in Starcraft, Caesar's Legion is a brutal and barbaric dictatorship that opposes the very basic principles of an enlightened society such as basic freedoms. Unless they make fundamental changes to their society (such as having a civilian government body, abolishing slavery, and stop the burning and looting conquered towns), they are an opposition to not just the NCR (and everyone that they blackmailed into submission), but also the enemies of the human civilization since they are aggressively trying to push toward the Core Regions on the West Coast. If they manage to do so they will destroy the last refuge and hope of the civilized world in post war America. They have to be put down.
 
Mistrz said:
chankljp said:
Legion may want to see itself as a a new Roman Empire, but from what I can see so far that have adapted all the bad things about the Romans and very few of the good one. Lets see what they have in common with the Roman Empire: Their name and uniform, their nasty habit of crucifying people, the thirst for war and conquest, and slavery. So far they failed to display any of the things that actually made the historical Rome a strong and respectful power such as the code of laws, civic virtues, philosophy, art, engineering and scientific skills, etc.
Click to expand...

Well... No you are wrong. What made Empire strong was the fact that they were more brutal, unforgiving and of course better organized then any other country. What made Rome great was great military leaders, supperior weapon and tactics. For example Greece was far better developed in scince and culture, but they didn`t stood a chance against Empire.

To have a place for developement of culture, law etc. you must first make you enemies affraid of you enough to leave you alone. This is obtained by lack of mercy for your enemies (executions and bloodthirst).

About slaves, they are cheapest labour force you can get. I`m not surprised Legion take slaves.
Click to expand...

And who gets to decide who is strong and worthy? Them? The Legion? By what criteria do they get to become both judge, jury and executioners? In the wasteland the strongest might survive better, but that doesn't make it right.

So using you reasoning, do you support the Khans back in the orginal Fallout? After all, they are a group of brutal survivalist that wants to create a new Mongol Empire (Too bad they didn't finish the entire history book. Other wise they will find out how the Mongols ended up). Do you think they were good guys?

Artist and diplomats might not be able to stand up against the strength of a trained and harden warrior in the short run. But in the long run the former will prevail. For the Legion fails to understand one of the most important lessons of the Great War, that human beings must strive for peace through co-existence and cooperation. Otherwise human beings themselves will no longer exist. Not even with the powerful military might of Caesar's Legion.

And the New California are not just weak and defenseless politicians and tradesman either. They have the largest standing army in the entire Fallout Universe and managed to survive a war with the Brotherhood of Steel continuously for years. I would say that is quite a military achievement.
 
I see you like examples :wink: I`d say that I`m all for organization, especially in post - apocaliptic environment.

And who gets to decide who is strong and worthy? Them? The Legion? By what criteria do they get to become both judge, jury and executioners? In the wasteland the strongest might survive better, but that doesn't make it right.
Click to expand...

Right is the one who at the end of day stays alive.

Artist and diplomats might not be able to stand up against the strength of a trained and harden warrior in the short run. But in the long run the former will prevail.
Click to expand...

Big words and such but still if the former survives they`ll work for the victor.
 
Morale != moral. Fuck morals. Morals are relative to each person. Sure, now, we have some pretty common ones, but a hundred and fifty + years ago? Slavery was pr. cool. Besides, if we didn't rescue them from the dark heart of Africa, they wouldn't have a fucking clue about civilization or God or any of that awesome stuff.

You can't assign the morals we have today to the people of the wastes. It's an entirely different culture.

That said, we don't know shit about the Legion, for certain. We've got stuff from Van Burean, but we don't know if that's how the Legion is going to be in New Vegas. For all we know they let slaves become citizens, and educate them with skills on how to survive and thrive in the wastes. Teach them to stop living as a bunch of dirt-worshipping heathens and be civilized members of society. After they've paid of they paid off that debt to society with some hard labor.

Also, Pre-emptive strike is an self-defense tactic, provided it's done right. I don't know why Jack would burn down the house like that as opposed to, say, putting a bullet in his neighbor or cutting his brakes or something.

Also the Legion is awesome because they've got a guy voiced by Danny Trejo. And Danny Trejo is the fucking man.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top