You'll get more swearing coming your way if you keep multi-posting 
Next time use the edit button or you shall perish!!!1
Next time use the edit button or you shall perish!!!1
My Views on The Role of the NCR in New Vegas
- Thread starter chankljp
- Start date
DirkGently
Still Mildly Glowing
chankljp said:
So male genital mutilation is acceptable? Talk about relativism. What about, for instance, the Pitt? If it wasn't for slavery, they never would've been able to grow at all, and it was something their leader, Ashur, regretted, and had planned to free everyone who had worked there and stop taking in slaves. But they did anyway. And he's the 'good guy' in all of it. Gray area, huh?
Also, Might Makes Right isn't necessarily a belief, it's a fact. Really. If you do something that somebody stronger than you doesn't think is right, they can stop you and/or retaliate against you. If no one is stronger than them, they're ultimately what's right. Because nobody can prove them wrong and punish them for it. Of course most people who actually believe in it and use that to justify their actions rarely think of anything of but the short term, and don't think about there being a bigger kid on the block who beat the shit out of them for being so uppity.
I don't get how that quote from Goering applies to preemptive attacks. Preemptive strike is tactic and not much more. Think of the Seven Day War when israel completely fucking ruined it's Arab neighbors collective shits. They didn't do it because they were bunch of jerks, they did it because they were worried about being invaded by their neighbors. So they A) disabled them from being able to invade them for a time and then B) made it very, very fucking clear that you don't fuck with Israel. This is also part of what the Legion is doing.
They're establishing a reputation for themselves. They're not just being brutal and sadistic for no point other than fun of it, they're doing it to send a message. Fuck with us, and we'll maybe enslave you. Maybe we'll crucify you a building and light it on fire. Or expose you radiation and turn you into a ghoul. And then lock you a building with your family members.
The NCR"s way of justice is fucked. It's what America does. And that system's fucked. If you murder someone in America and get convicted (provided you A) get caught, B) are actually tried, C) get found guilty, and D) the case isn't thrown out on a technicality), you go to jail for anywhere from twenty five years to life, assuming it' sa premeditated murder. You then get to cost the taxpayers of the country/state around fifty thousand dollars a year. That said, most cops don't care about justice, they care about closing the case. Most prosecuters want a high conviction rate so they can get better jobs at private firms or become judges or get a reputation.
Also, in case you haven't noticed, there is no way in hell I"m putting that much in effort into my posts. i do enough of that at school, not going to over expend myself on the internet.
Dear DirkGently,
Pay close attention, as this will be my last responds on this thread directed towards you.
I have tried hard to be polite, civil and respectful in my reply to your post, despite your rude tone and unreasonable amount of profanity. It is apparent to me, and I hope many others who have followed this exchange, that you are not here for a serious discussion. Given the continued rudeness of what you are writing, the willfully ignorance and slanderous contents that deliberately take my quotes out of context, I no longer see the need to be civil towards you. My last response will be less polite.
I wrote lengthy replies toward the discussion of this topic because I am planning to be an educator in the future and currently living in country that most people will consider a police state. A country in which based on a recent survey conducted by the state media discovered that more then 70% of the people think that it is foolish to have a moral code and that we should do whatever benefits ourselves, no matter how many people get harmed in the process. A country in which corruption and the lack of empathy is a common practice. A country that I love dearly, yet it sadly it is dominated by man like you. It is my sincere hope that some readers might learn something from our exchanges, even if people like you do not.
First off, the reason that I used female genital mutilation as an example is simply because that the act is an example of something that is intrinsically unjust and morally wrong. Its entire purpose is to inflect pain on someone just because they were born as a woman. It does not do anything else other then some sick 'cultural tradition'. It's inflicting pain simply for the sake of inflicting pain, aka, sadistic torture in the name of religion. I never said that I support male genital mutilation in anyway at all. However, when compared to the female versions, the latter is much more graphic and helps to get the point across.
Secondly, your entire point here is simply summed by the 1st-century BC Roman philosopher, Marcus Tullius Cicero:
"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges." (In time of war, the law falls silent.)
So is that what you want society to become; a 21 Century (Or 23 in the case of Fallout) Rome? A society driven by nothing other than the slogans of 'Victory no matter the cost!' and 'Caesar can do no wrong'? (Pun intended)
Thirdly, the things you wrote is telling of you as a person. Your perverted and twisted notions of the actual law of nature are nothing more than a man made concept that tries to justified barbaric and animalistic behaviors. Here is something that you wrote:
"If you do something that somebody stronger than you doesn't think is right, they can stop you and/or retaliate against you. If no one is stronger than them, they're ultimately what's right. Because nobody can prove them wrong and punish them for it."
So you saying that the only criteria that determines what is right and wrong is just what the person with the bigger gun is telling you? You are suggesting that the strong can do whatever they want to the weak, that morality is nothing but a lie. Most important of all, if YOU are the one in charge, you will find no problem with becoming a genocide committing, thieving, raping monster? And that the only reason why you are not doing these things is because that you are currently not the one with the biggest gun? You have a sick mindset, I am very glad and happy that we are most likely living thousands of miles away from each other just in case that one day you do become the biggest kid on the block. I hope people like you with your tyrannical mindset will never become leaders. You are not very good at it and will lead us all the ruined. I feel sorry for you.
Yes, I am a radical. I am a radical for decency, for life, for liberty, for truth, and for the betterment of humanity as a whole. I trust that you also believe that. However, your idea of bettering humanity is to destroy the parts of it you think aren't worthy or strong enough. Myself, for one, was born with both learning problems and poor hand eye condition. Do you think that I am a 'life unworthy of life'? Do you think that people stronger then me just have the right to have me eliminated because I am weaker then them? The society I am currently living in certainly thinks that way. In their eyes I am someone that is unworthy of them investing resources on due to your type of thinking. The only reason that I survived is because I was lucky enough to be born in a moderately wealthy family. But sometimes I wonder how many other potential great artist and poets are out there, never to be discovered because of people like you, who thinks that only the 'strong' is worthy.
The point is, I wanted to know more. I wanted to experience and enjoy this small, insignificant planet and learn as much as I could about the world in the 70-80 years of life that I have (25, if it wasn't for modern science. Something that will never be developed under YOUR ideal society since everyone is too busy fighting and trying to enslave each other). How can anyone achieve this? By peaceful co-operation and voluntary trade. Your mindset and ideology is the type of thinking that will result in something like the Great War. Don't you see? That is point behind the Fallout series, that humanity's final downfall will not be some external factors, but the primitive sides of out own mind. We human were never supposed to live apart from one another, fighting over each other with violence forever. There is always going to be someone that is stronger, but there is always another way to do so other then violence. It can be a competition of knowledge, of wealth, of beauty. That is why the Mongol empire fall, that is why the battle harden Huns were defeated at the end by my ancestors. For they fail to look at the larger picture and instead focusing on the here an now only.
Why do you think that we live in a society in which people can afford to not worry about where our next meal will come from, no to worry about how we might not be able to find a place to sleep? How do you think that we can have a society in which people can have extra time and energy to create computers, videos games, Internet, and the Fallout series? It is because of people that share my ideals or something similar that we are able to do so. If everyone thinks like sick man like you do, humanity will, at best, still live in the pre-industrial revolution standard of living, and at worst, killed each other off long ago.
In the end people like you might be able to win over people like me in the short run. But ask yourself this: What will you tell your children? What do you think they will tell theirs? But I will say this; society will have people like you. Man without principals, without conscience. Man that has a broken moral compass and can still sleep well at night after committing mass murder. Machine man, unnatural man. After all, that still doesn't stop you from enjoying the fruits of modern civilization.
Do you think you speak of knowledge? You speak of experience? You speak of wisdom? I have been to more then 11 countries in my life, seen everything from the wealthiest of cities to the most poverty stricken village. I have volunteered to help in schools and orphanages that barely are barely standing and low on the most basic resources, I have seen injustices and cruelty that defy reason, I have witness the effect that government corruption have on communities. And that is I will always fight people like you. For you foolishly put your own primitive ideology ahead of humanity’s survival. That is why I take this seriously.
So there you have it. I know that I’ve been quite impolite in this response than in the previous ones that I wrote, but I’m still behaving far more politely than you deserve given your rude, willfully ignorant, and slanderous behavior. And I’ve spent far more time responding than you deserve. However, as I wrote, I take philosophy very seriously, and I know some of the people how support your views still have the ability and desire to think, as do many others who will read this exchange. So hopefully this has been worth it.
Your Truly,
chankljp
Pay close attention, as this will be my last responds on this thread directed towards you.
I have tried hard to be polite, civil and respectful in my reply to your post, despite your rude tone and unreasonable amount of profanity. It is apparent to me, and I hope many others who have followed this exchange, that you are not here for a serious discussion. Given the continued rudeness of what you are writing, the willfully ignorance and slanderous contents that deliberately take my quotes out of context, I no longer see the need to be civil towards you. My last response will be less polite.
I wrote lengthy replies toward the discussion of this topic because I am planning to be an educator in the future and currently living in country that most people will consider a police state. A country in which based on a recent survey conducted by the state media discovered that more then 70% of the people think that it is foolish to have a moral code and that we should do whatever benefits ourselves, no matter how many people get harmed in the process. A country in which corruption and the lack of empathy is a common practice. A country that I love dearly, yet it sadly it is dominated by man like you. It is my sincere hope that some readers might learn something from our exchanges, even if people like you do not.
First off, the reason that I used female genital mutilation as an example is simply because that the act is an example of something that is intrinsically unjust and morally wrong. Its entire purpose is to inflect pain on someone just because they were born as a woman. It does not do anything else other then some sick 'cultural tradition'. It's inflicting pain simply for the sake of inflicting pain, aka, sadistic torture in the name of religion. I never said that I support male genital mutilation in anyway at all. However, when compared to the female versions, the latter is much more graphic and helps to get the point across.
Secondly, your entire point here is simply summed by the 1st-century BC Roman philosopher, Marcus Tullius Cicero:
"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges." (In time of war, the law falls silent.)
So is that what you want society to become; a 21 Century (Or 23 in the case of Fallout) Rome? A society driven by nothing other than the slogans of 'Victory no matter the cost!' and 'Caesar can do no wrong'? (Pun intended)
Thirdly, the things you wrote is telling of you as a person. Your perverted and twisted notions of the actual law of nature are nothing more than a man made concept that tries to justified barbaric and animalistic behaviors. Here is something that you wrote:
"If you do something that somebody stronger than you doesn't think is right, they can stop you and/or retaliate against you. If no one is stronger than them, they're ultimately what's right. Because nobody can prove them wrong and punish them for it."
So you saying that the only criteria that determines what is right and wrong is just what the person with the bigger gun is telling you? You are suggesting that the strong can do whatever they want to the weak, that morality is nothing but a lie. Most important of all, if YOU are the one in charge, you will find no problem with becoming a genocide committing, thieving, raping monster? And that the only reason why you are not doing these things is because that you are currently not the one with the biggest gun? You have a sick mindset, I am very glad and happy that we are most likely living thousands of miles away from each other just in case that one day you do become the biggest kid on the block. I hope people like you with your tyrannical mindset will never become leaders. You are not very good at it and will lead us all the ruined. I feel sorry for you.
Yes, I am a radical. I am a radical for decency, for life, for liberty, for truth, and for the betterment of humanity as a whole. I trust that you also believe that. However, your idea of bettering humanity is to destroy the parts of it you think aren't worthy or strong enough. Myself, for one, was born with both learning problems and poor hand eye condition. Do you think that I am a 'life unworthy of life'? Do you think that people stronger then me just have the right to have me eliminated because I am weaker then them? The society I am currently living in certainly thinks that way. In their eyes I am someone that is unworthy of them investing resources on due to your type of thinking. The only reason that I survived is because I was lucky enough to be born in a moderately wealthy family. But sometimes I wonder how many other potential great artist and poets are out there, never to be discovered because of people like you, who thinks that only the 'strong' is worthy.
The point is, I wanted to know more. I wanted to experience and enjoy this small, insignificant planet and learn as much as I could about the world in the 70-80 years of life that I have (25, if it wasn't for modern science. Something that will never be developed under YOUR ideal society since everyone is too busy fighting and trying to enslave each other). How can anyone achieve this? By peaceful co-operation and voluntary trade. Your mindset and ideology is the type of thinking that will result in something like the Great War. Don't you see? That is point behind the Fallout series, that humanity's final downfall will not be some external factors, but the primitive sides of out own mind. We human were never supposed to live apart from one another, fighting over each other with violence forever. There is always going to be someone that is stronger, but there is always another way to do so other then violence. It can be a competition of knowledge, of wealth, of beauty. That is why the Mongol empire fall, that is why the battle harden Huns were defeated at the end by my ancestors. For they fail to look at the larger picture and instead focusing on the here an now only.
Why do you think that we live in a society in which people can afford to not worry about where our next meal will come from, no to worry about how we might not be able to find a place to sleep? How do you think that we can have a society in which people can have extra time and energy to create computers, videos games, Internet, and the Fallout series? It is because of people that share my ideals or something similar that we are able to do so. If everyone thinks like sick man like you do, humanity will, at best, still live in the pre-industrial revolution standard of living, and at worst, killed each other off long ago.
In the end people like you might be able to win over people like me in the short run. But ask yourself this: What will you tell your children? What do you think they will tell theirs? But I will say this; society will have people like you. Man without principals, without conscience. Man that has a broken moral compass and can still sleep well at night after committing mass murder. Machine man, unnatural man. After all, that still doesn't stop you from enjoying the fruits of modern civilization.
Do you think you speak of knowledge? You speak of experience? You speak of wisdom? I have been to more then 11 countries in my life, seen everything from the wealthiest of cities to the most poverty stricken village. I have volunteered to help in schools and orphanages that barely are barely standing and low on the most basic resources, I have seen injustices and cruelty that defy reason, I have witness the effect that government corruption have on communities. And that is I will always fight people like you. For you foolishly put your own primitive ideology ahead of humanity’s survival. That is why I take this seriously.
So there you have it. I know that I’ve been quite impolite in this response than in the previous ones that I wrote, but I’m still behaving far more politely than you deserve given your rude, willfully ignorant, and slanderous behavior. And I’ve spent far more time responding than you deserve. However, as I wrote, I take philosophy very seriously, and I know some of the people how support your views still have the ability and desire to think, as do many others who will read this exchange. So hopefully this has been worth it.
Your Truly,
chankljp
Shadow of the Wastes
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Hang on, does it really matter why someone is being brutal and sadistic? Does it really matter if it's for shits and giggles or telling people "Don't mess with me?"
Lovely discussion brewing here, I'm enjoying the read (surprisingly enough - normally I couldn't give a fuck about some people arguing on the interwebnet).
chankljp, you got a point about there needing to be a moral code beyond 'I ARE STRONGEST, I ARE RIGHT!!1', but that behaviour is also a big part of our culture(s), and always has been. It's pretty impossible for one person to gauge what is morally right and what isn't - what is better for the human race and what isn't.
A lot of people leave that to religion, or to their moral leaders, or to their own sense of 'what is right' (which is a combination of all). Yet most people think there is one 'correct', 'humane' way to co-exist and evolve, but sadly, I reckon no such thing exists. All our deeds are bound to be regarded as brutish, ignorant, even evil as time passes.
I've been thinking about American slavers, bringing the blacks from Africa to work on their fields. As a kid, I always thought that they must have all been brutal, evil and ignorant monsters in order to be able to do such a thing. But that's only from our (today's) point of view. I'm pretty sure a lot of the slave owners were all-in-all decent people - they were just born into and lived in a culture where African slavery was common - it was genuinely believed blacks were nowhere near equal to whites - brutish beasts useful just for labour. An 'evil' person would be someone who beat and raped his slaves, but not someone who owned slaves. Even though slavery and racism is wrong, and always was, there just wasn't a strong force fighting to stop it (and by that I mean strength as in logical thinking, ability to argue etc, not just brute strength).
I'm gonna throw another topic in here (may have been mentioned, I didn't read) just to point out that some things we consider normal today may be seen as wilful evil, great ignorance in the future. People in the future may debate how in the hell we didn't stop it, how people like us could share these ideals and still think they're working on making humanity better:
Animal rights. Meat eating. Dog ownership. etc.
Ramble, ramble, ramble. I'm terribly sorry, I forgot what this whole discussion is about anyway. If anyone can read and grasp any of my concepts and relate them somehow to this discussion then great, because I sure as hell can't
chankljp, you got a point about there needing to be a moral code beyond 'I ARE STRONGEST, I ARE RIGHT!!1', but that behaviour is also a big part of our culture(s), and always has been. It's pretty impossible for one person to gauge what is morally right and what isn't - what is better for the human race and what isn't.
A lot of people leave that to religion, or to their moral leaders, or to their own sense of 'what is right' (which is a combination of all). Yet most people think there is one 'correct', 'humane' way to co-exist and evolve, but sadly, I reckon no such thing exists. All our deeds are bound to be regarded as brutish, ignorant, even evil as time passes.
I've been thinking about American slavers, bringing the blacks from Africa to work on their fields. As a kid, I always thought that they must have all been brutal, evil and ignorant monsters in order to be able to do such a thing. But that's only from our (today's) point of view. I'm pretty sure a lot of the slave owners were all-in-all decent people - they were just born into and lived in a culture where African slavery was common - it was genuinely believed blacks were nowhere near equal to whites - brutish beasts useful just for labour. An 'evil' person would be someone who beat and raped his slaves, but not someone who owned slaves. Even though slavery and racism is wrong, and always was, there just wasn't a strong force fighting to stop it (and by that I mean strength as in logical thinking, ability to argue etc, not just brute strength).
I'm gonna throw another topic in here (may have been mentioned, I didn't read) just to point out that some things we consider normal today may be seen as wilful evil, great ignorance in the future. People in the future may debate how in the hell we didn't stop it, how people like us could share these ideals and still think they're working on making humanity better:
Animal rights. Meat eating. Dog ownership. etc.
Ramble, ramble, ramble. I'm terribly sorry, I forgot what this whole discussion is about anyway. If anyone can read and grasp any of my concepts and relate them somehow to this discussion then great, because I sure as hell can't
DirkGently
Still Mildly Glowing
@SKULL: PETA already believes that all those are horrible and wrong on the level with holocaust. Of course, PETA is full of hypocrits and supports terrorism, so fuck them.
Also, people are inclined to fight other people who don't share their moral code even if it's against their moral code.
@Shadow Of the Wastes: If you're needlessly brutal and sadistic, chances are you're deranged and/or a complete fucking sociopath. Doing it for a reason (other than because you're batshit crazy), atleast implies some sense of sanity. If I heard that legion had horribly butchered people or enslaved them, when they came knocking I'd either A) attempt to buy some slaves or, if we couldn't or had no real need for them, happily throw myself to be enslaved.
Mission-fucking-accomplished.
@Chankljp: I'm not going to read that, because it's incredibly long and I have headache right now, but if you want to call out on shit in the future, why don't you send me a PM and not involve this thread in your personal issues with me?
EDIT: Also on racism; Myself, i'm not against racism. I'm against race. Race is an anthropological construct we used to organize/differentiate each other from each other, and it's really caused nothing but problems. We should get rid of it.
Also, people are inclined to fight other people who don't share their moral code even if it's against their moral code.
@Shadow Of the Wastes: If you're needlessly brutal and sadistic, chances are you're deranged and/or a complete fucking sociopath. Doing it for a reason (other than because you're batshit crazy), atleast implies some sense of sanity. If I heard that legion had horribly butchered people or enslaved them, when they came knocking I'd either A) attempt to buy some slaves or, if we couldn't or had no real need for them, happily throw myself to be enslaved.
Mission-fucking-accomplished.
@Chankljp: I'm not going to read that, because it's incredibly long and I have headache right now, but if you want to call out on shit in the future, why don't you send me a PM and not involve this thread in your personal issues with me?
EDIT: Also on racism; Myself, i'm not against racism. I'm against race. Race is an anthropological construct we used to organize/differentiate each other from each other, and it's really caused nothing but problems. We should get rid of it.
Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
What people can't understand is that morals are a personal view. One man right is another man's wrong. To call someone else a monster based on their views is hypocrisy at its finest, as you are basically telling the person that they are wrong because they do not share your point of view.
Empty09
Still Mildly Glowing
People must kill and enslave in order to reach the point of questioning if that is good or not and eventually banishing it away.
Maybe that's exaggerated a bit but there is no possible way of it to be in reverse, peaceful times then return to slavery. - As a general note
As in Fallout maybe I don't have enough knowledge about NCR ( do they really have a court?)
But if Caesar's legion would conquer the wasteland and everyone else with it they would have to eventually evolve into something better, into something more organized.
I'm pretty sure they would have cities. And cities lead to rights, not among slaves, among citizens, in which way they'll reach after generations an era of post 'brute force' state.
There can't be all stupid people everywhere, and when the smart man will rise upon the horde of limited, warlike, barbarian-like humans he will take the chance of promise. Yes promise, a weapon of mass destruction. Promises of good living, of wealth and abundance. Sure, a lot of people will fall for that and in a harsh, fucked up world like the wasteland, they'll find those promises irresistible.
More generations pass away. Now, promise or not, the ideology of improving,education, knowing about the world and what-not are starting set in peoples minds then the smart man comes back into the equation. And after a small analyze of his surroundings he looks down at the slaves, back at the people, back at the slaves then back at the people and a brilliant idea comes to his mind. He asks "Would you like to be treated the same way those slaves are treated, huh?" Of course, he will fail but the question will remain up and after all people will get to accept the situation and stop slavery. Of course, a lot of people won't like the idea of having no slaves anymore, but as much as this idea sounds foolish for them the real world we live in balances the situation by the fact that...well slavery WAS stopped IRL.
The mindless barbarians will expand but time passes and there have to be few guys more smarter than others, they just need to pace their advantages and their possibilities in a favorable position for them and their families, hopes of tomorrow are present in everyone's minds. Culture, economy etc comes along.
Maybe that's exaggerated a bit but there is no possible way of it to be in reverse, peaceful times then return to slavery. - As a general note
As in Fallout maybe I don't have enough knowledge about NCR ( do they really have a court?)
But if Caesar's legion would conquer the wasteland and everyone else with it they would have to eventually evolve into something better, into something more organized.
I'm pretty sure they would have cities. And cities lead to rights, not among slaves, among citizens, in which way they'll reach after generations an era of post 'brute force' state.
There can't be all stupid people everywhere, and when the smart man will rise upon the horde of limited, warlike, barbarian-like humans he will take the chance of promise. Yes promise, a weapon of mass destruction. Promises of good living, of wealth and abundance. Sure, a lot of people will fall for that and in a harsh, fucked up world like the wasteland, they'll find those promises irresistible.
More generations pass away. Now, promise or not, the ideology of improving,education, knowing about the world and what-not are starting set in peoples minds then the smart man comes back into the equation. And after a small analyze of his surroundings he looks down at the slaves, back at the people, back at the slaves then back at the people and a brilliant idea comes to his mind. He asks "Would you like to be treated the same way those slaves are treated, huh?" Of course, he will fail but the question will remain up and after all people will get to accept the situation and stop slavery. Of course, a lot of people won't like the idea of having no slaves anymore, but as much as this idea sounds foolish for them the real world we live in balances the situation by the fact that...well slavery WAS stopped IRL.
The mindless barbarians will expand but time passes and there have to be few guys more smarter than others, they just need to pace their advantages and their possibilities in a favorable position for them and their families, hopes of tomorrow are present in everyone's minds. Culture, economy etc comes along.
they might be personal but since we are not individuals but part of a society, its not applicable.Faceless_Stranger said:
also its always was, from the early days up untill recent times, most of the the greatest empires and projects and monuments was built upon slaves, which is basically cheap labor without rights or benefits(btw how should we call all those illigals doing jobs that no one want, for penny's) or how is vassals are anything but a fancy name for a slaves to his mi'lord or a wife to husband in some backward cultures even today...SkuLL said:
anyway, i just wanted to point that the slave trading predated us and the rest of the imperialistic white pigs, its was heavily introduced by the ottomans hand and that most of the slaves that was sold to the usa was subjugated and sold by local africans...
Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
As much as the NCR boasts rights, they hired slavers to harass Vault City into joining the republic. Things like this need to make people question: Even in the face of "Freedom", hypocrasy always lingers behind the shadows. Nothing is ever done for the sake of the people, but personal gain. the Legion lays its motives on the table. Do you join the devil you know, or the devil you don't?
Shadow of the Wastes said:
Yes it does. It is because your player character in New Vegas will be put in a similar position to that of the Vault Dweller in the original Fallout. In that your every action and choice will change not just those around you, but the entire course of history forever.
My question here is, why would anyone in such an important position decided to put anyone other the the NCR in power over the Mojave Wasteland? Sure, they might be lawfully stupid pencil pushers at times, but compared to the other factions that you can pick from they are the nicest ones around and the best hope of resorting civilization. So why would anyone willing support a faction that is sadistic, brutal and so inhumane?
People might say 'Well... the bad guys are more likely to win'. That might be true, but you are the only one that is in the position to break this vicious cycle of death, suffering and failure. Why would anyone want to do otherwise?
That is reason why I started this thread. I wanted to hear if there really is another side of the coin. Perhaps there is something important that I missed in my thinking. But so far the only 'augments' I got were:
(1) Progress is evil, we should all be tribes
(2) Might makes right
(3) @&!%*@!!! The Legion are the best! There is nothing as right or wrong!! You suck!!! @&!%*@!!!
So if anyone out there have an actual moral augments against the NCR or in favor of the other factions, I would love to hear about it. After all, we are all prisoner of our own bias and I could be very wrong.
DirkGently
Still Mildly Glowing
Reasons why I would support the Legion (At about four AM)
1) Because I can
2) Out of spite
3) To see what happens
4) John Doman
5) Out of spite for characters in the game.
6) For shits and giggles. (For difference between this and number 1, see the addendum of 'shits' and 'giggles'.
Oh, and the NCR will probably have this whole obsession with morals, and what's right and wrong and wage a war on the Legion even to it's own detriment purely on the basis that they're slavers. The legion on the other hand, probably doesn't give too much of a fuck about 'bad' behaviour so long as it doesn't cut into their profits.
1) Because I can
2) Out of spite
3) To see what happens
4) John Doman
5) Out of spite for characters in the game.
6) For shits and giggles. (For difference between this and number 1, see the addendum of 'shits' and 'giggles'.
Oh, and the NCR will probably have this whole obsession with morals, and what's right and wrong and wage a war on the Legion even to it's own detriment purely on the basis that they're slavers. The legion on the other hand, probably doesn't give too much of a fuck about 'bad' behaviour so long as it doesn't cut into their profits.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tl;dr
Whenever someone on an Internet forum reply with 'too long, did not read'. It is most likely due to the following reasons:
(1) The inability to accept, understand or pay attention to information when not separated by a header.
(2) The ability to arbitrarily read 400 small posts but not a long one.
(3) A sign of the lack of reading capability.
(4) A very cheap response and an indication of lack of wit.
(5) 90% of the time: A lie.
(6) A desperate attempt at a comeback used by people who just can't think of one.
(7) Usually used by people who've been torn apart verbally but want one last attempt at looking witty.
(8) Total failure at #7.
..........
(10) Should really be: "Too Lazy, Don't Read."
Urban Dictionary, every internet forum user's best friend!
I think I should make my point here more clear to avoid more misunderstanding. I am not saying that people shouldn't play as a supporters of the Legion in the game. After all, this is only a game, it isn't real life, it is factional and imaginary. I myself intend to try a playthough of leaving the legion in control and defeat the NCR just to see what will happen in the ending.
However, my question is that why would anyone see the Legion as anything other then an evil faction. Similar to how you can become a slaver in both Fallout 2 & 3, kill children in the Fallout 1&2, join the Master to get a special ending for Fallout 1, spreading Jet addition across California in Fallout 2, etc. They are some of the many gameplay options that players can explore, but they are still the evil options and I don't think any of us would disagree there.
My other question is that are there is any reasons that the NCR presents should be wiped out from the Mojave region. I am not talking about gameplay or real life reasons (the Legion have a cool voice actor, I want to see what happens, etc). I am talking about the story wise reasons such as that you find their actions disagreeable or that you really think that Legion is what is best for the wasteland. That is type of things I would like to read about.
And just so everyone knows, I am very well aware that the world is not black and white. If you guys read the admittedly overly long post that I had up there, I have been though situations that are morally grey in which both sides have good arguments for their actions. But in the end I will still pick either the lesser evil or the greater good. I think everyone else have a similar way of thinking, although coming to different decisions at the end. But I am having a hard time understanding how can the Legion be considered the greater good or even the lesser evil. If anything, if I am common wastelander I would want to see both sides getting kicked out instead of the Legion being the only ones in control.
I do agree with the point about civilizations having to slowly learn from their mistakes over time. Again, in a post I made earlier, I do agree that if given enough time, the Legion will mature in to a much nicer and perhaps even good faction. But on the other hand, we have the NCR, a culture that has already gotten pass that point a long time ago. So why wait for the Legion to grow up at the price of possibly hundreds and thousands of lives instead of stopping the bloodshed here and now?
The 'cultures matures slowly' augment is one of the Chinese government's favorite defense against criticism (I know that I am using a lot of China examples, but that is because I am currently living there and can see the effects of these things first-hand). When people complain about the lack of human rights, their standard responds is 'Look at the US! They used to have slaves for more then 100 years after the founding of their country. Do you see slaves here? No? Stop complaining!'. When environmentalist protest about the large amount of pollution, their favorite reply is 'Read a history book. The environmental damage in England during the Industrial Revolution was much worst then this.' I will admit that most of the time what they say is true. The problem is, do we really need to go though the entire cycle again, after knowing about the consequences? Couldn't we just skip some of the nastier parts, and avoid making the same mistakes as those before us did?
In the case of Fallout, the world has already been though a nuclear war. Do they really need to start from the beginning, repeating all the mistakes the old world made such as slavery and oppression all over again? I think if the Legion or the Brotherhood takes over, the best case outcome is that after making all the same mistakes all over again, they will eventually become better people, but it will cost many lives and everyone will pay a heavy price. The NCR seems to be the best bet to break this cycle. The worst outcome of putting them in power is the best outcome you can expect from the Legion, their best outcome, however, is that they will create an enlightened democratic and eudaemonic society with peace and justice for all. Achieving all this possibly centuries before the others get anywhere close to that level of development.
As for the morality augment that we were having, let's make a deal. I'll spare you guys the 'We must do the right thing' speech and you will spare me the 'The ends justify the means' speech. People much smarter then we are has debated about this topic ever single the beginning of philosophy and they still haven't come to a conclusion. It is clear at this point that you guys and I are not going to see eye to eye on this subject so I suggest we stop discussing it and get but to the topic on NCR's role in New Vegas.
Whenever someone on an Internet forum reply with 'too long, did not read'. It is most likely due to the following reasons:
(1) The inability to accept, understand or pay attention to information when not separated by a header.
(2) The ability to arbitrarily read 400 small posts but not a long one.
(3) A sign of the lack of reading capability.
(4) A very cheap response and an indication of lack of wit.
(5) 90% of the time: A lie.
(6) A desperate attempt at a comeback used by people who just can't think of one.
(7) Usually used by people who've been torn apart verbally but want one last attempt at looking witty.
(8) Total failure at #7.
..........
(10) Should really be: "Too Lazy, Don't Read."
Urban Dictionary, every internet forum user's best friend!
I think I should make my point here more clear to avoid more misunderstanding. I am not saying that people shouldn't play as a supporters of the Legion in the game. After all, this is only a game, it isn't real life, it is factional and imaginary. I myself intend to try a playthough of leaving the legion in control and defeat the NCR just to see what will happen in the ending.
However, my question is that why would anyone see the Legion as anything other then an evil faction. Similar to how you can become a slaver in both Fallout 2 & 3, kill children in the Fallout 1&2, join the Master to get a special ending for Fallout 1, spreading Jet addition across California in Fallout 2, etc. They are some of the many gameplay options that players can explore, but they are still the evil options and I don't think any of us would disagree there.
My other question is that are there is any reasons that the NCR presents should be wiped out from the Mojave region. I am not talking about gameplay or real life reasons (the Legion have a cool voice actor, I want to see what happens, etc). I am talking about the story wise reasons such as that you find their actions disagreeable or that you really think that Legion is what is best for the wasteland. That is type of things I would like to read about.
And just so everyone knows, I am very well aware that the world is not black and white. If you guys read the admittedly overly long post that I had up there, I have been though situations that are morally grey in which both sides have good arguments for their actions. But in the end I will still pick either the lesser evil or the greater good. I think everyone else have a similar way of thinking, although coming to different decisions at the end. But I am having a hard time understanding how can the Legion be considered the greater good or even the lesser evil. If anything, if I am common wastelander I would want to see both sides getting kicked out instead of the Legion being the only ones in control.
I do agree with the point about civilizations having to slowly learn from their mistakes over time. Again, in a post I made earlier, I do agree that if given enough time, the Legion will mature in to a much nicer and perhaps even good faction. But on the other hand, we have the NCR, a culture that has already gotten pass that point a long time ago. So why wait for the Legion to grow up at the price of possibly hundreds and thousands of lives instead of stopping the bloodshed here and now?
The 'cultures matures slowly' augment is one of the Chinese government's favorite defense against criticism (I know that I am using a lot of China examples, but that is because I am currently living there and can see the effects of these things first-hand). When people complain about the lack of human rights, their standard responds is 'Look at the US! They used to have slaves for more then 100 years after the founding of their country. Do you see slaves here? No? Stop complaining!'. When environmentalist protest about the large amount of pollution, their favorite reply is 'Read a history book. The environmental damage in England during the Industrial Revolution was much worst then this.' I will admit that most of the time what they say is true. The problem is, do we really need to go though the entire cycle again, after knowing about the consequences? Couldn't we just skip some of the nastier parts, and avoid making the same mistakes as those before us did?
In the case of Fallout, the world has already been though a nuclear war. Do they really need to start from the beginning, repeating all the mistakes the old world made such as slavery and oppression all over again? I think if the Legion or the Brotherhood takes over, the best case outcome is that after making all the same mistakes all over again, they will eventually become better people, but it will cost many lives and everyone will pay a heavy price. The NCR seems to be the best bet to break this cycle. The worst outcome of putting them in power is the best outcome you can expect from the Legion, their best outcome, however, is that they will create an enlightened democratic and eudaemonic society with peace and justice for all. Achieving all this possibly centuries before the others get anywhere close to that level of development.
As for the morality augment that we were having, let's make a deal. I'll spare you guys the 'We must do the right thing' speech and you will spare me the 'The ends justify the means' speech. People much smarter then we are has debated about this topic ever single the beginning of philosophy and they still haven't come to a conclusion. It is clear at this point that you guys and I are not going to see eye to eye on this subject so I suggest we stop discussing it and get but to the topic on NCR's role in New Vegas.
White Knight
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Yay the train is back on the rails.
Anyway, the war with the BoS isn't as major as it was in van buren. I'm assuming from the fact that its only a minor conflict that either the BoS and NCR are still allies, and are only having a small dispute over tech, or its only the las vegas brotherhood that is at war with the NCR.
Anyway, the war with the BoS isn't as major as it was in van buren. I'm assuming from the fact that its only a minor conflict that either the BoS and NCR are still allies, and are only having a small dispute over tech, or its only the las vegas brotherhood that is at war with the NCR.
My reason to play against the NCR whenever possible:
The developers all wore NCR T-shirts on pre-release events. Fanboys.
The developers all wore NCR T-shirts on pre-release events. Fanboys.
this were you contradict yourself, NCR cant and will not break the circle because they are doing the same thing the US was doing before the nuclear war.
They are annexed cities by force, like the US did with Canada, they are not doing this to expand the democracy, they are doing it for the money or the resources again like US.
what do you think the will do when they find a nuclear bomb, they will bomb the other faction like the US did with china.
So you are telling us to break the circle, them we should choose the legion not the NCR.
Without full information on the Legion's redeeming qualities, there's little point in judging it as simply a slaving faction.
We don't know much about the NCR's "good deeds" either. For all we know, every annexed city could live in worse conditions than under the Legion. Considering the preferred methods are force or extorsion, that could actually be the case.
We don't know much about the NCR's "good deeds" either. For all we know, every annexed city could live in worse conditions than under the Legion. Considering the preferred methods are force or extorsion, that could actually be the case.
Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
While the Legion on the other hand, took warring tribes and united them under one flag. Supplies and provisions for all of them. Glory unto Caesar! 