My Views on The Role of the NCR in New Vegas

Because he's voiced by Danny Trejo. Danny Trejo is awesome. You don't want to be followed around by the practically-undead version of Machete? What are you, are a communist?

Or do you mean by John Doman being awesome? He's fucking awesome. Go watch the Wire.
 
Sorry, looking at it now. I thoought you were saying that the Ghoul companion is the ONLY companion. I realize now that you meant YOUR only companion.
...
And there's nothing wrong with Communism ;)
 
Not if Machete is the leader.

Check out this pencil drawing BTW, I was hella impressed:

machete___danny_trejo_by_herevilgothmajesty-d2xj7id.jpg

http://herevilgothmajesty.deviantart.com/art/MACHETE-Danny-Trejo-177255877
 
"f we didn't rescue them from the dark heart of Africa, they wouldn't have a fucking clue about civilization or God or any of that awesome stuff. "

Spoken like a true Randroid

They also wouldn't be contributing, like the rest of us, to global environmental collapse.
 
I know it's kinda hard to detect when people aren't being completely serious over the internet, but some common sense might help you there.
 
DirkGently said:
Morale != moral. Fuck morals. Morals are relative to each person. Sure, now, we have some pretty common ones, but a hundred and fifty + years ago? Slavery was pr. cool. Besides, if we didn't rescue them from the dark heart of Africa, they wouldn't have a fucking clue about civilization or God or any of that awesome stuff.

You can't assign the morals we have today to the people of the wastes. It's an entirely different culture.

That said, we don't know shit about the Legion, for certain. We've got stuff from Van Burean, but we don't know if that's how the Legion is going to be in New Vegas. For all we know they let slaves become citizens, and educate them with skills on how to survive and thrive in the wastes. Teach them to stop living as a bunch of dirt-worshipping heathens and be civilized members of society. After they've paid of they paid off that debt to society with some hard labor.

Also, Pre-emptive strike is an self-defense tactic, provided it's done right. I don't know why Jack would burn down the house like that as opposed to, say, putting a bullet in his neighbor or cutting his brakes or something.

Also the Legion is awesome because they've got a guy voiced by Danny Trejo. And Danny Trejo is the fucking man.
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Wow! When I first posted this thread I expected there will lots of discussions between people with different views. I never expected it to turn into a full scale debate on political philosophies and worldviews. Perhaps this is a good thing, since one of the signs for good story telling is when people have different interpretations. All the more reason to be excited about New Vegas.

It has been a few years now since I last did any Online debates. But thankfully I am still studying TOK so hopefully my debate skills hasn't got rusty. So here we go:

Since you made it clear that you were joking when you wrote the part about how slavery is a good thing, I am not sure how serious I should take the rest of the things you wrote due to Poe's Law. But I will assume that you are serious.

I am sorry, but I do not accept Moral Relativism as a justification for immoral actions taken by someone of another culture. Since you claim that all moral values are subjective, you are saying that no culture or civilization is better then another. And that we cannot judge people that doesn't share our own beliefs. So your belief is simply that a group cannibals is no better or worst then a village of peaceful farmers, that Nazi Germany is morally the same as modern day Switzerland, the Enclave is morally the same as the tribals of Arroyo, and that Shandy Sand is no different then the Khan raiders.

The fact is that some cultures are better then others at somethings. The act of genocide is wrong, female genital mutilation in the name of religion is wrong, slavery for any reason is wrong. My own country's actions such as locking up bloggers for writing things that the government dislike, censorship of the media (in fact, I am using a VPN to get to the site right now), and turning a blind eye on the corruption of high ranking officials are all morally wrong.

I used to believe the same things as you wrote. Whenever a foreigner criticizes the problems of China I will just use the argument of "You don't understand! You have to be a Chinese to be able to see the big picture!". Now years later I finally understand how foolish I was. Some actions are simply morally wrong. Multiculturalism and cultural diversity are not excuses for commenting atrocities and crimes.
 
Guiltyofbeingtrite said:
If anything, the Tribals in Fallouts were by the best the Wasteland had to offer
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Here is another thing that I have a hard time understanding, the romancing of the hunter-gatherer and farming life style.

I am not saying that I dislike the Tribals in anyway at all. From what we can see they do seem to be very nice people compared to most of the others in the wasteland (This is to be expected since the bad guys represent many of the characters and the majority of major factions). Also, since most of them are just normal people trying to survive by working with each other, as long as they don't go crazy and become raiders I think I really like them as individuals that still have a strong moral compass that points north despite all the harshness of a post-war wasteland.

However, that is about the only thing that the tribals are good at, basic survival. They are just able to feed themselves and nothing more. They are not rediscovering science, improving the general standards of living, or helping others. They are not even teaching their children about pre-war history in order for them to prevent something like the Great War from happening again (If you read the Vault Dweller's Memoirs, you will see that it is so vague that I don't think anyone will think of it as more then legends and stories after a few generation).

Most of them can't even support or defend themselves. If you have the Fallout 2 restoration pack, you will see that the tribals are not as well off as you may think. Most of them are either: (1) Trashed and overrun by slavers and raiders (Sulik's Tribe), (2) Become slavers and raiders themselves (The Vipers), (3) Living in poverty and starving (The small village outside of Vault City, I am not sure if they count as tribals or not).

Even Arroyo almost got wiped out by a simple drought if it wasn't for the GECK. Can you imagine that a single natural can wipe out the NCR, the Brotherhood, or even the Legion? A society that can be totally destroyed so easily is not a good thing. You will need to evolute into a village, a town, a city, and eventually either join or form a nation if you plan to survive in the long run.

And the finally reason why I think the tribal lifestyle is not a good thing: Their lack of access to modern medicine. If they get sick or hurt they use Healing powder. Seriously, Healing powder! No antibiotics, no painkillers, no sanitizer. Have any of you ever tried to have no modern medicine? I did ones. It was when I was at survival training a few years ago. My legs got badly infected due to wounds, it took me about a week before I managed to get a doctor to give me antibiotics. It wasn't nice at all to say the lease.

Again, I am not saying that the tribals are bad at all. I am just pointing out that they are a long way from being 'the best the Wasteland had to offer'.
 
Mistrz said:
I see you like examples :wink: I`d say that I`m all for organization, especially in post - apocaliptic environment.
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My obsession is just one of the habits I developed as an International Baccalaureate (IB) student. For being successful in that program you will need to use lots of examples in all your essays. :lol:

I believe in an orderly and stable society too (That us why I have no problem with Singapore's government in real life). But the Legion is clearly way beyond just bring order to the territories under their control. They are engaged in unnecessary cruelty on a scale that is unmatched by any of the other factions (At lease the Enclave have a reason to do the things that they did, the Legion is just doing it for the sake of it). Here is an example, the mining town of Nipton. After the Legion overrun it they gave the citizens a lottery. The losers would become slaves for the Legion for the rest of their lives. The winners would be publicly crucified. How exactly is order? The NCR's way of bring order is by building police stations, have courts and a complete legal system, etc. Now this is order, crucifying unarmed civilians is not.


Mistrz said:
Right is the one who at the end of day stays alive.

Big words and such but still if the former survives they`ll work for the victor.
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Normally I don't like to using ad hominem attacks in debates. But I think I will do this just once.

If those quotes you wrote reflects what you really think in real life, then you have a really unhealthy and frankly sick mind.

"Might makes right" is the slogan of tyranny and oppression. So based on this argument, there was nothing wrong with the holocaust since the Nazis had military might against the Jews of Europe, the Japanese were doing nothing wrong when they killed and raped more then 20,000 people during the Second World War in Nanjing since, after all, they were stronger. And if you were born as a Naive American during the 15th to the 19th century you will have no problem with helping Conquistador to exterminate your own countryman as long as they pay well.

Unquestioning obedience to authority is the whimper of the slaves. Do you know what happened to Marshall Petain, head of Vichy France, who collaborated with the Nazis at the end of the war? he thought he was working for the victors too. Now see how he ended up.

Now I will apologies in advance about the harshness of my words. But this is what I really think and I will stand by every word of it.
 
DirkGently said:
Also, Pre-emptive strike is an self-defense tactic, provided it's done right. I don't know why Jack would burn down the house like that as opposed to, say, putting a bullet in his neighbor or cutting his brakes or something.
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Here is a nice quote about the notion of so called 'pre-emptive strikes' that I really like:

“Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don’t want war. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship…Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.”
- Hermann Goering, at the Nuremberg Trials before he was sentenced to death for war crimes
 
chankljp said:
My obsession is just one of the habits I developed as an International Baccalaureate (IB) student. For being successful in that program you will need to use lots of examples in all your essays. :lol:
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What a mad course, good luck with that. I did mine in Switzerland, thought Higher Level Maths and Physics were gonna kill me.

Had a crap teacher for TOK (didn't know what he was talking about), but I can see how it could be an interesting subject.
 
DirkGently said:
That said, we don't know shit about the Legion, for certain. We've got stuff from Van Burean, but we don't know if that's how the Legion is going to be in New Vegas. For all we know they let slaves become citizens, and educate them with skills on how to survive and thrive in the wastes. Teach them to stop living as a bunch of dirt-worshipping heathens and be civilized members of society. After they've paid of they paid off that debt to society with some hard labor.
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The following are some confirmed information about some of Caesar's Legion's action in the Mojave Wasteland, please tell me that if you think it is justified or not:

(http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/08/16/touring-fallout-new-vegas-with-google-maps/)

Caesar's Legion captured the small mining town of Nipton, their leader, Vulpes Inculta came up with a twisted and sick idea on how to deal with the citizens of the town: a lottery. The losers would become slaves for the Legion. The winners would be crucified or burn alive outsider the town hall. And Vulpes is actually very pretty proud of this!

Camp Searchlight used to be a NCR controlled military installation. Caesar's Legion managed to sneak a nuclear device into the base, turning the entire NCR garrison into mindless feral ghouls that attack everyone passing by.

What nice and wonderful people to work with! (Sarcasm)
 
SkuLL said:
chankljp said:
My obsession is just one of the habits I developed as an International Baccalaureate (IB) student. For being successful in that program you will need to use lots of examples in all your essays. :lol:
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What a mad course, good luck with that. I did mine in Switzerland, thought Higher Level Maths and Physics were gonna kill me.

Had a crap teacher for TOK (didn't know what he was talking about), but I can see how it could be an interesting subject.
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Thanks. It is nice to have friendly voice here that doesn't swear like sailors. :D
 
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