NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

[The Enclave 86]

You can't relativize evil to such an extent. By your logic, Nazis shouldn't be condemned either. Or Soviets. In fact, mass murders are all just big misunderstandings, right?

Your logic is faulty.

Do I think every poor kid in the Hitler Youth was evil? No. Do I think that all the young German's indoctrinated by the Nazi regime are evil? No.

To use in-game examples, do I think that the Legionnaires of Caesar's Legion are evil? No. Do I think that the people of Vault City are evil? No.

All of them the product of twisted leaders and all of whom ruled through typically authoritarian governments where the poor people rely on the government's word and have limited access to outside infomation; difference is that I think the Enclave's Hitler/Caesar came and died long before the Enclave we see in the game were born.

Stop clutching straws and just admit that you're wrong.

No I fail to see your point? You honestly think that the over 200 years that the people in the wasteland have genetically adapted to it in order to become a superior species for that environment? Your saying that the business/leadership ability it heriditary?

 

[Quagmire69]

your thinking of the other guy quagmire

Hey man, just cause its the interenet does'nt mean i don't have feelings too.

By the way i'm getting sick of the "your like hitler" arguements, its just lazy to pick one asshole out of history and use him as a way to insult you opponents without disproving them.

 

[Ilosar]

But the Nazi comparison is very much apt with the Enclave, both are extremely xenophobic and authoritary governments whose leaders push an insane agenda of murder and genocide on literally baseless reasons.

@Enclave 86; I kinda see where you're coming from, and sorry about the virus mishap, but I still think you are trying to find apologies where none should be given. The people of the Enclave serve an organization whose plans are evil, no questions, and so they are guilty, if not by association, then by apathy. They, themselves, may not be murderous psychos, but they allow said psychos to direct their course, and thus are to be held responsible. It's too easy to say they have no choice or are just following the path the old Enclave set more than a century ago. It's cliché, but the flipside of power (they still elect the President, no? can't be a fluke, Richardson has an holotape where he carefully plans his speeches IIRC) is responsibility, and from what we saw the Enclave is completely void of any notion of responsibility so even if they succeeded they would make an horrible government anyhow (as if causing the apocalypse twice wasn't enough proof these guys are walking disasters).

 

[Courier]

By the way i'm getting sick of the "your like hitler" arguements, its just lazy to pick one asshole out of history and use him as a way to insult you opponents without disproving them.

You're like Hitler and Stalin. That's two assholes for the price of one.

 

[Dr. Croccer]

When I say they are mad, I don't mean that they run around drooling and shouting, but that they immediately jump to conclusions in an insane way. The Wasteland has radiation and artificial super mutants (which we use ourselves as enforcers, making us hypocrite on top of just being criminally evil), so we must devise a plague of doom to kill everybody in it.

Because the people in it are irradiated, and are not genetically the same as the Enclave humans. Again, it's not entirely logical, but that's the point. The Enclave already is an entity that is born out of mass, irrational paranoia which their ancestors answered with horrific wars that created the world as it was. The entire point is that they've been so introverted and extreme in their mentality and views that it's completely dominated their society. The Wastelanders are the new Communists, who must be destroyed at all costs in order to secure the future of ''true Americans''. The fact that they use Super Mutants themselves to achieve that goal shows how deluded, obsessed and out of touch they are.

Again, I don't think their views themselves are rational but, given their history and society, that they have those views seems logical. They're not evil just to be a cartoonish dragon for the player to vanquish, they're a society with an ideology that they've inherited and further developped which led to them being so evil.

No amount of justification will make me believe that any sane individual could possibly come up with that kind of reasoning, especially when they in fact know so little about the Wasteland.

People have done similar things for more absurd reasons...

 

[Quagmire69]

You're like Hitler and Stalin

Wow, I must be getting under your skin.

 

[Walpknut]

Does somebody knows what Quagmire is even talking about anymore?

 

[Courier]

Yadda yadda yadda, Fallout 3, yadda yadda yadda, atmosphere, yadda yadda yadda, everything but Fallout 3 sucks, yadda yadda yadda.


^ Summary of Quagmire's time here.

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

Lyon's BOS is losing a war of attrition because they are idiots (in 20 years they haven't found out the source of the SMs...) and because in a depopulated area like the post-war DC they can't gather enough troops.

For some reason, I need to talk about this.

I find it hilarious how the EBOS spends twenty years fighting a urban war of attrition inside Washington DC.

They don't do anything to, you know, stop the problem.
In Fallout, the BOS didn't do anything because there wans't anything to be done. They knew there was this one mutant they found that may have been manufractured, and that was it. They had no idea a great Supermutant Army led by geniuses and great generals was just awaiting to be unleashed loose upon the wastelands.

The Master was wisely bidding his time and hiding his army while his soldier raided caravans for stuff and people, his followers increased the size of their church and their logistical base and both searched vaults to him.

If the Master decided to fight a campaign of attrition like that in Fallout, he would've been wiped the moment the Brotherhood knew where he was. Maybe the BOS would be unnecessary, maybe Hub could've defeated him with superior numbers and brought Gunrunner weaponry.

Meanwhile, Lyons' band of fools essentially spends twenty freaking years fighting a unnecessary war. The most hilarious thing is that they knew the location of FOUR vaults, and never scouted them. Ever. Including the one that was unknownly the source of their headaches. Not to mention all the pre-war locations full of good loot like Fort Bannister. All inside a single city.

For some reason, he never had one of his troopers go out and try to follow supermutants. Never. Despite the availability of technology like Stealthboys.

Lyons' BOS fails at fighting, intelligence AND searching for technology. I think the only thing they found was Liberty Prime and some stuff. That's it.

Meanwhile the Western BOS knew about the Enclave (which the NCR was aparently clueless of), found HELIOS one and Hidden Valley, caused thousands of casualties on the NCR army during the war, destroyed the NCR's reserve of gold, etc.

Eastern Brotherhood fails at life.

 

[Sabirah]

Hi, I'm usually a lurker (and will probably not post too often after this, maybe once a few days.) Anyway quagmire while the Eastern BOS is indeed quite dumb (I still like FO3 as much as the rest of the games besides tactics though) I think that they are/were still going to win against the mutants in the end. The reason for this would be that, not only are the mutants low on FEV, but in broken steel (I think) you can tell Lyons about vault 87 and he says that he will send a detachment of paladins to destroy the muties there. With that in mind, it seems that the eastern BOS will bring order to the wastes now.

 

[LinkPain]

Lyon's BOS is losing a war of attrition because they are idiots (in 20 years they haven't found out the source of the SMs...) and because in a depopulated area like the post-war DC they can't gather enough troops.

For some reason, I need to talk about this.

I find it hilarious how the EBOS spends twenty years fighting a urban war of attrition inside Washington DC.

They don't do anything to, you know, stop the problem.
In Fallout, the BOS didn't do anything because there wans't anything to be done. They knew there was this one mutant they found that may have been manufractured, and that was it. They had no idea a great Supermutant Army led by geniuses and great generals was just awaiting to be unleashed loose upon the wastelands.

The Master was wisely bidding his time and hiding his army while his soldier raided caravans for stuff and people, his followers increased the size of their church and their logistical base and both searched vaults to him.

If the Master decided to fight a campaign of attrition like that in Fallout, he would've been wiped the moment the Brotherhood knew where he was. Maybe the BOS would be unnecessary, maybe Hub could've defeated him with superior numbers and brought Gunrunner weaponry.

Meanwhile, Lyons' band of fools essentially spends twenty freaking years fighting a unnecessary war. The most hilarious thing is that they knew the location of FOUR vaults, and never scouted them. Ever. Including the one that was unknownly the source of their headaches. Not to mention all the pre-war locations full of good loot like Fort Bannister. All inside a single city.

For some reason, he never had one of his troopers go out and try to follow supermutants. Never. Despite the availability of technology like Stealthboys.

Lyons' BOS fails at fighting, intelligence AND searching for technology. I think the only thing they found was Liberty Prime and some stuff. That's it.

Meanwhile the Western BOS knew about the Enclave (which the NCR was aparently clueless of), found HELIOS one and Hidden Valley, caused thousands of casualties on the NCR army during the war, destroyed the NCR's reserve of gold, etc.

Eastern Brotherhood fails at life.

I second that. As I mentioned something similar before, it brings down to the same thing. They've got the guns but they don't have brain mass at all. And unlike all of Capital Wasteland which survived extreme bombing, this is logical only to Bethesda or fans that need to have an explanation why it sucks so much there, they arrived fully armed and prepared. But I guess at some point they lost their brain. I don't get it how they survive at all. Their Citadel has barely enough men to defend the front doors, add a detachment of super mutants or 2 Behemots and work is done. Meanwhile he will pursue his glorious war. The problem here is logical. Beth thought Brotherhood=Paladin(in Power Armor). Not by a longshot.

 

[Quagmire69]

Meanwhile the Western BOS knew about the Enclave (which the NCR was aparently clueless of), found HELIOS one and Hidden Valley, caused thousands of casualties on the NCR army during the war, destroyed the NCR's reserve of gold, etc.

Eastern Brotherhood fails at life..

The Western BoS survives but has abandoned its cause. They focus more on keeping tech out of others hands and hoarding it than the original cause of being the technological saviors of mankind.

The CW wasteland Brotherhood have suffered but have prevailed, after broken steel they are flooded with Enclave tech, and with the purifier they'll be able to trade clean water in exchange for recruits. Who knows, maybe they can integrate Enclave survivors into thier ranks like the Midwestern BoS did.

 

[Walpknut]

How can there be Enclave survivors when they 1. Are dumb as a brick and have no self preservation sense, attacking everything and everyone, and 2. a missile Barrage impacted their base?

 

[Quagmire69]

I, don't know...maybe because I keep getting attacked by them and in NV its confirmed that the Enclave have a base in chicago.

 

[Surf Solar]

Meanwhile the Western BOS knew about the Enclave (which the NCR was aparently clueless of), found HELIOS one and Hidden Valley, caused thousands of casualties on the NCR army during the war, destroyed the NCR's reserve of gold, etc.

Eastern Brotherhood fails at life..

The Western BoS survives but has abandoned its cause. They focus more on keeping tech out of others hands and hoarding it than the original cause of being the technological saviors of mankind.

The CW wasteland Brotherhood have suffered but have prevailed, after broken steel they are flooded with Enclave tech, and with the purifier they'll be able to trade clean water in exchange for recruits. Who knows, maybe they can integrate Enclave survivors into thier ranks like the Midwestern BoS did.

Why should they "trade water" with anyone when the clean water is flowing through a whole fucking basin? People can just come there and bottle their own. Even if they'd want to "trade" that water, in exchange for what? No single faction in FO3 produces anything on their own, they live from the hand in their mouths.

 

[Quagmire69]

In exchange for surrendering to Brotherhood rule. With the purifier as well as with loot from the Enclave I see the Brotherhood taking control of DC, Rivit city and Megaton. With these cities under their control they can start conscripting like the Midwestern BoS.

 

[The Enclave 86]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCme_K6MYLY#t=1h17m07s

"Under Regan's plan, legal rules of succession are set aside; instead a secretly pre-selected group of government insiders would quickly step forward to lead. These plans are strictly confidential."

"If the President or Vice President are killed or incapacitated, the top ranking Cabinet official of the team on call becomes the Acting President. Regan's teams are made up of 40 to 60 carefully selected representitives from the Department of State, Defense and the CIA. A skeleton crew of apocalyptic, non-elected leaders. Key players in Regan's highly classified COG (Continuity of Government) plan are Republican Congressman Dick Cheney and Business Executive Donald Rumsfeld."

"A non-elected leader, rules of succession set aside, a Congress that won't be reconstituted after the attack."

A very interesting segment of a documentary to say the very least. Regan actually implimented this plan, it happened, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and the others involved drilled for it. Are people catching my drift here? Sounds a lot like a certain group doesn't it? This is why I argue that the true legitimacy of the Enclave can never truly be known because we have no idea what goes on in these secretive plans and classified files. The segment in question is about four minutes for anyone interested.

President Richardson - "I am the elected representative of the people. The United States does still exist. God bless us, every one. We've just had to adapt in order to survive after the war."

 

[LinkPain]

In exchange for surrendering to Brotherhood rule. With the purifier as well as with loot from the Enclave I see the Brotherhood taking control of DC, Rivit city and Megaton. With these cities under their control they can start conscripting like the Midwestern BoS.

How? Who is sane enough to give a whole city to them? Why would they care if it's not their business?
Are they Paladins from DnD building the temple of Thor in the cities? I can already see FO4...Liberty Primus (Bos) vs Megaclave Authoritarian(Enclave 2+).

The best thing they can do is offer protection and stop being Brotherhood and turn into something else like a new faction which would be awesome. But picking on the remains and changing unimportant bits is like a poor guy from Beth looking to imprint his own paw into already formulated Fallout verse. If a guy like Richard Grey ever appears again he would trample DC like it was nothing, not to mention the original FO2 Enclave who would do the same.
DC BoS need brains and tactics and to stay the hell away from Beth writers. They need Obsidian to write them a story. Then it's ok to talk about trading the water. And it's not like the stupid Purifier can be the only source of water.

 

[The Enclave 86]

In exchange for surrendering to Brotherhood rule. With the purifier as well as with loot from the Enclave I see the Brotherhood taking control of DC, Rivit city and Megaton. With these cities under their control they can start conscripting like the Midwestern BoS.

How? Who is sane enough to give a whole city to them? Why would they care if it's not their business?
Are they Paladins from DnD building the temple of Thor in the cities? I can already see FO4...Liberty Primus (Bos) vs Megaclave Authoritarian(Enclave 2+).

The best thing they can do is offer protection and stop being Brotherhood and turn into something else like a new faction which would be awesome. But picking on the remains and changing unimportant bits is like a poor guy from Beth looking to imprint his own paw into already formulated Fallout verse. If a guy like Richard Grey ever appears again he would trample DC like it was nothing, not to mention the original FO2 Enclave who would do the same.

DC BoS need brains and tactics and to stay the hell away from Beth writers. They need Obsidian to write them a story. Then it's ok to talk about trading the water. And it's not like the stupid Purifier can be the only source of water.

I agree, I don't know how people translate, "Dues Ex Machina military victory" into "qualified civilian leader." Elder Lyon's runs an army, he is not a government, he has no experience in governing. He also thinks that nepotism and grooming his daughter into the best possible successor are good qualities for a leader.

 

[Quagmire69]

He also thinks that nepotism and grooming his daughter into the best possible successor are good qualities for a leader.

Like I said the DC Wasteland will be alot like Europe after the Fall of Rome with individual cammanders and Garrisons acting as governments. Likely Sarah will take over the Brotherhood and will rule with the Lone Wanderer as her right hand man, or she might just marry him creating a dynastic succession. Not all that unlikely, especially given that thier grooming some brat in the citidel for leaership just because he's related to Roger Maxton.

In most likelyhood Ashurs daughter will take over the Pitt after he dies. This should'nt be too suprising, if you think about hereditary right is the most basic human form of government.