NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

Walpknut said:
Caesar still has an Autodoc on his tent, its malfunctioning and thats why he is dying
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And the Courier is the only one who can fix it because he has created ''a culture that is largely ignorant of medicine''. That's just stupid. Here we've got Caesar, a highly intelligent man who's created an entire civilization the size of Germany at least with thousands of people, and he's purposefully formed that entire civilization so that they reject modern medicine and advanced machinery, even though he himself is completely reliant on both in order to not die.

The Legion is kind of obvious that they must have places where they grow their food and breed their animals, they also produce weapons and ammo, the high powers ask for tributes of food to the peopel udner their control, they also have gold reserves.
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Well, of course. My point is that it's never properly explained. They mention major settlements, but we don't know how they're organised or if there even are Legion civilians. It's heavily implied that everyone in the Legion is either a Legionary or a slave.

The fact is, we've got this massive, almost nomadic army. Thousands of Legionaries in one spot, for years on end. The Legion should have infrastructure and supply that are far more efficient and bigger than anything the NCR has in order to just feed the men that are there, let alone over the course of several years, in which they rebuilt an entire army. Again, apart from some vague hints, you don't see anything from the Legion that would qualify them as having an economy that's more advanced than just raiding and hunter-gathering.

The Legion forbids the use of drugs and alcohol, and they seem to punish crime in very brutal ways, I mean Raul himself says that Arizona is a lot safer after the Legion took control. But they still seem not that well developed, time constraints.
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Which, again, isn't really ''having an economy''. It's just being good costum agents. ;)
 
Quagmire69 said:
By the way I don't hate the NCR, I just get tired of people saying that they are morally superior to the other wasteland factions.
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But you seem top express thsi by making shit up to make them look like they are Ibol Commie Nazis bent of just doing every terrible thign they can just to fill their stomachs, and you also use bogus arguments like saying that their flag has a bear so they are not to be trusted. If you can't really say anythign sustentable then just don't attempt to defend it.


Dr. Croccer, Yes, its a pitty that they did not receive as much focus and development, I hope the next Obsidian Fallout game is given more time than New Vegas to be produced.
 
I may be a new comer to the Fallout franchise, but I don't think the OP has any rational understanding of the Fallout lore.

1. You claim the Enclave are the true embodiment of America. News flash, I'm American and they are the pure embodiment of what America stands AGAINST. I saw the OP claim the Enclave were acting under desperation when trying to commit mass genocide against the unclean masses of the wasteland. Guess who else acted under desperation and used that as an excuse to commit genocide?

Nazi Germany.

The NCR are far more morally right in their modus operandi. True, they may not be the friendlies towards Super Mutants, but they are fairly friendly towards Ghouls. The only reason the ghouls at Camp Searchlight were ordered terminated was because, wait for it, they were feral or were aggressive, only ONE Ghoul in the town didn't immediately attack you, and that would be the sergeant you can send to Ranger Station Echo.

2. As for Fallout 3 and it's additions to canon, it was a fun game, but not a true piece of Fallout canon. It is canon, but it's canon that completely butchers past canon.
 
Fallout 3 is partially canon, since it was mentioned in New Vegas. What I like to imagine is that while the main events of Fallout 3 happened, that was several years ago and the game you're playing is actually the BoS's glorified version of the actual events.
 
Fallout 3 is partially canon, since it was mentioned in New Vegas. What I like to imagine is that while the main events of Fallout 3 happened, that was several years ago and the game you're playing is actually the BoS's glorified version of the actual events.
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Of course, much like Halo: Reach. The events of that game don't completely match up with previous canon, but if you take it as propaganda to give hope to a new generation, then it become much more acceptable. Same with Fallout 3.
 
Can you stop using the word "american" as some kind of adjective of what makes something good? Quagmire already made the use of that word pretty annoying in this discussion.
 
Can you stop using the word "american" as some kind of adjective of what makes something good? Quagmire already made the use of that word pretty annoying in this discussion.
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Never meant to use it as such, merely stating that his interpretation of the Enclave being the USA incarnate is wrong.
 
[quote="DecepticonCobra''] Never meant to use it as such, merely stating that his interpretation of the Enclave being the USA incarnate is wrong.[/quote] Eh, well, again, the Enclave is an extreme evolution of Fallout's US, which is an exaggeration of the real US during the 50s. They share some similairies, like the extreme patriotism, rabid fear of Communism, unethical secret military and government experiments and plans, and the rather strange contrast between cutesy, Americana civilian life and brutal militarism, which are kept highly seperate.
 
1. You claim the Enclave are the true embodiment of America. News flash, I'm American and they are the pure embodiment of what America stands AGAINST. I saw the OP claim the Enclave were acting under desperation when trying to commit mass genocide against the unclean masses of the wasteland. Guess who else acted under desperation and used that as an excuse to commit genocide?
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Not sure if your talking about me or enclave 86 but neither of us said anything about the embodiment of true america, my opinion is again that they were not evil. Evil implies motive, if I kill a dog for fun i'm pretty fucked up, if I kill one because I falsely believe it has rabies and will bite me when in reality it just a ate through a box of soap i'm sadly mistaken. The Enclave truly believed that the only way to save america and the human species was unleashing a bio genocide. Oh by the way, news flash, i'm american to, and yes its an adjective of something being good.

What the Enclave does in the game is no different then what the US government was planing to do in the event of a Russian attack on western Europe. My opinion has always been that the Enclave are meant to be a critisism of that US policy of unleashing a holocuast to prevent defeat. I just turn it on its head.
 
Not really. They didn't want to genocide the current residents of the wastes because they might mutated or because they might be dangerous (which wouldn't be hassle to the dudes with airsupport and power armor and gatling lasers, outside of the BOS, the remnants of the Master's army and more natural hazards like Deathclaws).

They're killing them because they aren't the Enclave, and that the Enclave is the last remnants of pure, American DNA, so the inhabitants of the wastes aren't Americans and they have no reason to be there.

Oh, and they currently occupy the land and it's far easier to just let the FEV murderise 'em all quietly so they can just burn the corpses and set up their own towns and settlements easily as opposed to having to do the whole storm and murderise everyone with gatling lasers.

Also, it's very different than planning how to deal with an attack. They're planning genocide. They don't represent the concept of deterrence or MAD, but the ultra-american-ism, anti-communism, and even the somewhat disturbing idea of just burning the world clear of communists and starting anew.
 
How can anyone defend the Fallout 2 Enclave as not being evil is beyond me. They want to purge the planet because the planet is not them. That's not just being evil, it's mustache-twirling, senseless cartoon villainy. The Enclave could very easily carve out a place for their own in the Wasteland, but nooo, they have to be evil about it and attempt a global genocide.

It's like in those cartoons where the villain wins a race, but did it pretty fairly, so he decides to stop and cheat because that's what villains do, and of course he loses because of that. The Enclave could have had their own place, more than enough to jump-start their re-colonization of America, but they wanted to be evil about it and abducted whole villages in order to create a plague that would kill everyone because that's what villains do, so they got nuclearized for their trouble, and rightly so. The Fallout 2 Enclave is evil, full stop, almost no depth beyond the whole patriotism = bad thingy. I mean, it's probably the only faction that got more depth in it's Fallout 3 depiction, FFS.

Also, the whole ''but they are civilization and have technology!!'' defense doesn't work. The Wasteland has shown, by the NCR, to be able to create civilization by itself, and a far more equalitarian and effectual one than the Enclave at that.
 
But remember that the NCR are just a bunch of Brahmin Barons that love to kick puppies and kill the ghouls!
 
Ilosar said:
The Fallout 2 Enclave is evil, full stop, almost no depth beyond the whole patriotism = bad thingy. I mean, it's probably the only faction that got more depth in it's Fallout 3 depiction, FFS.
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Pro-American things Richardson says:

{222}{prs35}{We had a number of sanctuaries that would enable the glorious American civilization to endure. These facilities - the vaults - were part of the great plan.}

{237}{prs40b}{The Project will cleanse all the mutants from our fair land - and the rest of the globe. Once again, America will be the world's policeman.}

{284}{prs59}{That's the spirit. God bless America. You should probably get back to your isolation ward now, though.}

pro-Humanity as a whole Richardson says:

{234}{prs39a}{For the Project. It's almost ready. Humanity's salvation is almost at hand and the United States of America will be the progenitor of that rebirth.}

{246}{prs43a}{No, no. That's humanity's last, best, hope. That's what we've been working towards all these years.}

{254}{prs46b}{Some of the members of your tribe are showing some extremely interesting changes. If the danger to true humanity weren't so great I would think about studying them. But that's not to be.}

{262}{prs49}{Never. Part of the president's job is to make the tough decisions. A lot of near-humans will sacrifice their lives for the return of humanity. Humans will prevail.}

{277}{prs56}{You might find that tougher than you think. If you do, I'll go to my reward knowing that I died a patriot and a servant of humanity.}

Fallout 3 is the only game which made them more 'patriotic' and even then largely through President Eden; the Enclave in Fallout 2 was literally about saving the human race.

Ilosar said:
How can anyone defend the Fallout 2 Enclave as not being evil is beyond me. They want to purge the planet because the planet is not them. That's not just being evil, it's mustache-twirling, senseless cartoon villainy. The Enclave could very easily carve out a place for their own in the Wasteland, but nooo, they have to be evil about it and attempt a global genocide.
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So yeah, I refute the premise that they are evil for evils sake, they're hopelessly deluded but not evil; they think that they are saving the human race through their actions. You might say that they are not and I agree but their own motivation from their own perspective is not 'fucking mutants, probably should devote all our efforts to killing them for our own amusement' but rather 'there's mutants everywhere man, we have to save the human race or it's game over'.

You talk about the people who've lived their whole lives on a propaganda-spewing Oil Rig for the last 165 years as though they can think rationally, despite not having any point of comparison. Suppose you think that the people in Vault City are evil too just because they are bigots, nevermind the authoritarian government which encourages the hatred in the first place whilst deleting their own mutation records and encouraing people to stay in the settlement with a populatoin of 103.
 
The Enclave 86 said:
You talk about the people who've lived their whole lives on a propaganda-spewing Oil Rig for the last 165 years as though they can think rationally, despite not having any point of comparison.
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Well there are peaceful and normal Vault dwellers in Vaults completely closed for a longer period of time. :look:
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
The Enclave 86 said:
You talk about the people who've lived their whole lives on a propaganda-spewing Oil Rig for the last 165 years as though they can think rationally, despite not having any point of comparison.
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Well there are peaceful and normal Vault dwellers in Vaults completely closed for a longer period of time. :look:
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And the only normal control vault we've seen became Vault City :look:
 
The Enclave 86 said:
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
The Enclave 86 said:
You talk about the people who've lived their whole lives on a propaganda-spewing Oil Rig for the last 165 years as though they can think rationally, despite not having any point of comparison.
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Well there are peaceful and normal Vault dwellers in Vaults completely closed for a longer period of time. :look:
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And the only normal control vault we've seen became Vault City :look:
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Wich is biggoted towards the Wasteland inhabitants.

Like the Enclave. :roll:
 
Tagaziel said:
I am looking for some direct confirmation of the NCR annexing VC, where is it stated in New Vegas?
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There is no direct confirmation, only Cass saying that she, "Isn't some Vault City pacifist"; given that the NCR had a population of 700'000 in 2242 though and VC - as a city-state - had 103 though I don't think that they will have held out long.
 
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