NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

[Ilosar]

Enclave, you just proved my point. The guy wants to kill ''near-humans'' (notice the concept is ill-defined enough to allow a very liberal interpretation, when to people stop being humans? I am sorry, but this sentence is extremely nazi-like) because they are ''near-humans''. The rest is typical hogwash about ''doing what we have to do'' that is so overused it's not any sort of excuse anymore. In particular, being the ''last, best hope of humanity'' is insane with the Republic being much, much better than them at everything save blowing shit up, and there's no way in hell the Enclave doesn't know about the NCR.

The point is, I don't care about their ''true'' motives, whenever they really believe all that stuff, or are delusional or Richardson just does all that to get re-elected. What they do doesn't make any kind of friggin sense and exists only to provide a threat to the entire world so that the player is more motivated to kick their asses. That's why I say they a stupid kind of evil, existing only to be killed in huge explosions.

And when I said Fallout 3 added depth, I meant that some within have better plans than killing absolutely everybody else in the whole damn wasteland just because. Autumn's idea makes much more sense than anything the Enclave presidents have tought up since then. He wants to, more or less, enslave the wastelanders; that's evil, but it's pragmatic, evil with a purpose. Richardson and Eden just want to kill them all, fuck the consequences, because they can. That's stupid, cartoonish villainy.

 

[The Enclave 86]

And when I said Fallout 3 added depth, I meant that some within have better plans than killing absolutely everybody else in the whole damn wasteland just because.

Autumn's idea makes much more sense than anything the Enclave presidents have tought up since then. He wants to, more or less, enslave the wastelanders; that's evil, but it's pragmatic, evil with a purpose. Richardson and Eden just want to kill them all, fuck the consequences, because they can. That's stupid, cartoonish villainy.

If you actually speech Autumn at the end of the game he didn't actually stage his coup because of his opposition to the virus, IIRC he is almost in denial that the LW has the virus and implicates that 'he must have stole it' and that he can't believe Eden betrayed him. Besides, Autumn's 'plan' again destroys the Enclave by essentially creating a new military regime - in addition to getting a large amount of his fellows killed in Raven Rock - and is doomed to failure; you mentioned before about the technology they have but really what technology do they have that is superior to the wasteland? Essentially only military technology, what the wasteland needs in a super water-purifier or some incredible GM food, not more power armour. Richardson himself said at the height of the Enclave's power:

{293}{prs62}{Not at all. Look to the future. Sure muties and men could get along for a while, but before you know it, the numeric pressure of your kind would tell. No, a line must be drawn in the sand - the buck stops here.}

There is not a chance in hell that the heavily diminished Autumnist Enclave could endure, hell the guy's own troopers should fucking lynch him for being a coward and leaving Raven Rock immediately after making all of his loyalists there fight a senseless battle and get wiped out. Autumn can't solve the problems of the wasteland and his Enclave would fail.

Whatever Autumn's actual motivations were I guess we may never know, I would say it's because Eden is essentially a despot that destroyed the traditions of an entire nation (legitimacy aside, the Enclave are at the very least a mirror image of the pre-war US) but I know an staunch Eden supporter whom would disagree with me.

So there's your depth, an equally stupid and foolish soldier get's everyone in the Enclave killed and can be said to be the result of it's entire loss in D.C. before at the end of the game admiting amazement and hurt that the man he had just staged a coup against would have possibly gone behind his back.

On a side-note I would add that before New Vegas confirmed the common knowledge (but also common pecimism) for the NCR, that Richardson's hypothesis that the Enclave would be directly responsible for solving all of the mainlands ails means that he cannot have known about the full extent of an organisation like the NCR; hell Kreger's mention that 'the NCR didn't look like it would last very long' could also support the hypothesis that the Enclave didn't know the size of that organisation in 2242.

 

[Ilosar]

Why do you put so much weight in Richardson's words? The man tries to justify global genocide with unconfirmable theories and random musings while a guy/gal he very well knows hates his guts has him trapped alone. He is also shown to be utterly uncapable of considering anybody who's not on his damn oil rig human. To me he was clearly the maddest of the whole lunatic bunch, even counting ol' Frankie.

Also, not knowing how large the NCR was their own fault. Even random guys know the NCR is huge, I think (can't confirm for sure atm) that you get the 700 000 number before you even reach Shady Sands. The Enclave has Vertibirds, they have a solid enough information network that they can track the Brotherhood itself, they can find hidden tribal shitholes, yet they don't bother wanting to know more about the huge government that's just beyond their doorstep? My theory is that they just don't want to know, to discover that maybe, just maybe, their ivory tower ia a fraud and the Enclave is an hideous mockery of an actual organization and that a few Vault Dwellers crawling in the dirt can build something better than they could ever do with all the scientists and technological wonders at their disposal, because they spend all that time building mutants, weapons and genocidal plagues for no good reason.

About Autumn, well he didn't care about that stupid Purifier in the first place, didn't he? He wanted to wage a war against the Brotherhood for control, not defend an undefensible position right next to their stronghold. Then again, maybe it was a sound plan from Eden, but any tactic goes out of the window when God-mode LW and AWESOME Liberty Prime enter the picture I guess, no way Autumn could have countered that. At least his basic idea of not killing every Wastelander had a bit more merit than Eden's genocide.

 

[Walpknut]

You know I like to think that the Enclave guys that you can convince to fight alongside you against Frank Horrigan are Arcade's Dad and his batallion. a little off topic I know.

I don't get how can someone defend the Enclave's actions, I udnerstand thinking their motives are noble.... kinda in a twisted and reducing to bare basics way, btu their Plan a is always Genocide, their plan b probably was another form of genocide, they should have tried negottiating with mainlanders, maybe join forces with the NCR, they coudl have doen a lot more that way, and they could of partake in underhanded tactics to get their people to control the whole NCR.

 

[Quagmire69]

I don't get how can someone defend the Enclave's actions

Something I never did. I just think the enclave are just another self serving wasteland faction like the rest of them, wanting confort and security for themselves and not caring about anybody else. The only exception to this rule would be the followers who do care about others, and the Legion who don't even care about themselves, but then again thier religious fanatics who are probably thinking about some valhalla like afterlife awaiting brave warriors.

 

[Walpknut]

Selfelessness is overrated, is not the intention, is the result what matters. Being selfless, not being a hipocrite, thats not gonna rebuild the post war world, The NCR is the only Faction that woudl work on the long run, the Legion is mostly about inmediate results, btu the integrity of their society is very fragile, and The ENclave would mostly just run themselves into a corner with their own tactics. The Followers woudl just end up disappearing, not beign able to sustain themselves either, they need a bigger Faction to be part of.

 

[TheGM]

I don't get how can someone defend the Enclave's actions

Something I never did. I just think the enclave are just another self serving wasteland faction like the rest of them, wanting confort and security for themselves and not caring about anybody else. The only exception to this rule would be the followers who do care about others, and the Legion who don't even care about themselves, but then again thier religious fanatics who are probably thinking about some valhalla like afterlife awaiting brave warriors.

Come come now.

I'll defend the actions of Enclave because they are the US government and they do it in best interests of humanity, and are America and not those commies, the NCR.

 

[Ilosar]

What kind of bizarre thought process leads anyone to the conclusion that the NCR is communist? I am kinda serious here, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that communism is in any way their goal or that they even know what it is. The nation is ruled by a parliament (dominated by one figure for most of it's existence, even) influenced by various factions such as the military and the brahmin barons, how is that communist in any way, shape or form?

 

[Walpknut]

According to Quagmire, the fact that their flag has a star and a bear.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Why do you put so much weight in Richardson's words? The man tries to justify global genocide with unconfirmable theories and random musings while a guy/gal he very well knows hates his guts has him trapped alone. He is also shown to be utterly uncapable of considering anybody who's not on his damn oil rig human. To me he was clearly the maddest of the whole lunatic bunch, even counting ol' Frankie.

{142}{prs10}{Do you really think you can intimidate the President of the United States?}

{146}{prs11b}{You don't really expect that to work do you? Ha! If you try it, my guards have orders to shoot me rather than let anything, or anyone, endanger the Project. I'm staying right here. Now, are you going to shoot me or not?}

{277}{prs56}{You might find that tougher than you think. If you do, I'll go to my reward knowing that I died a patriot and a servant of humanity.}

Because I don't get this whole notion of 'lunacy' from him, he's sincere in everything he does and in his beliefs to the point that he is willing to die for them. The guy's a selfless patriot - in the Enclave's twisted way - who puts the prosperity of his own people above his own existance.

Again, the people on the ENCLAVE have in most cases never even left it once; spending entire generations on the ENCLAVE without any external contact in a completely static environment. I see no reason why Richardson should be anymore capable of reason that any of the lowliest citizens, nor any reason why these people should be able to either; your viewing everything from your own perspective when empathy is required to view it from their respective. I'm not defending their actions, only how the desire to complete those actions came about. Aside from a pair of deserters (whom both served at Navarro) everyone in the Enclave is wholly loyal to the organisation from the basic Navarro Patrolmen to the President himself.

So yeah I don't think he's 'mad', given the almost Vault experiment-esque life the people on the ENCLAVE lead I couldn't expect anything else.

My theory is that they just don't want to know, to discover that maybe, just maybe, their ivory tower ia a fraud and the Enclave is an hideous mockery of an actual organization and that a few Vault Dwellers crawling in the dirt can build something better than they could ever do with all the scientists and technological wonders at their disposal, because they spend all that time building mutants, weapons and genocidal plagues for no good reason.

My own ties into their own ultra-reactionary nature, according to Richardson they found Mariposa 70 years before Fallout 2, just after the Master.

{240}{prs41}{We found a research facility in operational shape about 70 years ago. A former military base that had been used to research a special virus.}

They saw the remnants of the Master's Army and other general lawlessness which to them confirmed everything that the Enclave had been told through propaganda; after that it was another almost 70 years until 2238 when the Enclave began excavating Mariposa again for the Project. The fact alone that 70 years elapsed between first contact with the mainland and them actually returning after seeing the Master's Army should alone communicate their reactionary nature; which again I don't attribute to them but to the original people in the Enclave whom started all of the propaganda in the first place.

About Autumn, well he didn't care about that stupid Purifier in the first place, didn't he? He wanted to wage a war against the Brotherhood for control, not defend an undefensible position right next to their stronghold. Then again, maybe it was a sound plan from Eden, but any tactic goes out of the window when God-mode LW and AWESOME Liberty Prime enter the picture I guess, no way Autumn could have countered that. At least his basic idea of not killing every Wastelander had a bit more merit than Eden's genocide.

Actually the Purifier was the lynchpin in Autumn's entire plan, use the Purifier as leverage in the wasteland to get the local populace to depend on the Enclave and probably create some Vault City like society of Enclave administration and security with wasteland labour. My own theory is that Eden's inept leadership and mere desire to see his precious Capital cleansed (regardless whether his Enclave puppets were around to reoccupy it) turned all the Enclave against him, we know he had to lie to Autumn about cancelling the FEV plan again and in my opinion it was to prevent Autumn from staging his own takeover. Because Eden had to give in to Autumn (admitedly because of Eden's own failings - not that I defend Eden in anyway) and let him continue with the farce that was taking over the purifier it endangered everyone in the Enclave; if Autumn had been more complient or Eden a better leader then they virus could have been distribute completely covertly into the water itself after the people in the wasteland had already completed it themselves.

I don't get how can someone defend the Enclave's actions, I udnerstand thinking their motives are noble.... kinda in a twisted and reducing to bare basics way, btu their Plan a is always Genocide, their plan b probably was another form of genocide, they should have tried negottiating with mainlanders, maybe join forces with the NCR, they coudl have doen a lot more that way, and they could of partake in underhanded tactics to get their people to control the whole NCR.

I don't defend their actions, I merely defend the in the Enclave themselves.

 

[Dr. Croccer]

Enclave, you just proved my point. The guy wants to kill ''near-humans'' (notice the concept is ill-defined enough to allow a very liberal interpretation, when to people stop being humans? I am sorry, but this sentence is extremely nazi-like) because they are ''near-humans''. The rest is typical hogwash about ''doing what we have to do'' that is so overused it's not any sort of excuse anymore. In particular, being the ''last, best hope of humanity'' is insane with the Republic being much, much better than them at everything save blowing shit up, and there's no way in hell the Enclave doesn't know about the NCR.

The point is, I don't care about their ''true'' motives, whenever they really believe all that stuff, or are delusional or Richardson just does all that to get re-elected. What they do doesn't make any kind of friggin sense and exists only to provide a threat to the entire world so that the player is more motivated to kick their asses. That's why I say they a stupid kind of evil, existing only to be killed in huge explosions.
.

To be fair, it is explained that they've investigated the people of the wasteland and discovered that those have radiation as well. The plans to purge the Wasteland were based on the fear that all humans in it were just mutants waiting to happen. It's developped from scientific findings into genocidal paranoia and a sense of self-superiority, hence the use of terms like ''Near-Humans'', which is basically just the Nazi ''Halbmenschen''.

I wouldn't say that they're stupid or pointless, but that they're paranoid and deluded. They've still got clear reasons for what they do, which make sense to themselves.

 

[Ilosar]

When I say they are mad, I don't mean that they run around drooling and shouting, but that they immediately jump to conclusions in an insane way. The Wasteland has radiation and artificial super mutants (which we use ourselves as enforcers, making us hypocrite on top of just being criminally evil), so we must devise a plague of doom to kill everybody in it. No amount of justification will make me believe that any sane individual could possibly come up with that kind of reasoning, especially when they in fact know so little about the Wasteland. Propaganda is not an excuse, believing in it a lot is not an excuse (to form another parallel, the nazis believed they did good, when they ended up only doing bad, for everybody involved, and no Godwin's Law does not apply when the Enclave is clearly based on the Third Reich's omnicidal tendencies), Richardson's guts in the face of death (which is just useless fanatism to me, but anyway) is not an excuse

Also, about Richardson being willing to die, we don't rightly know. If we had the option of taking him hostage and the guards shot him regardless, then he would have had a point. For what we know, he is just bluffing, and as a politician who has been in a family of rulers, he is a master at that kind of game. Not that it helps in the end.

And how can you defend the Enclave and not their actions when they are one and the same? The Enclave IS the Project, they have no other stated goal than to eradicate everyone in a delusional ploy to take over the world for themselves, that's literally the extent of their importance, that's why I don't like the Enclave beyond their stylish Power Armors.

 

[The Enclave 86]

When I say they are mad, I don't mean that they run around drooling and shouting, but that they immediately jump to conclusions in an insane way. The Wasteland has radiation and artificial super mutants (which we use ourselves as enforcers, making us hypocrite on top of just being criminally evil), so we must devise a plague of doom to kill everybody in it. No amount of justification will make me believe that any sane individual could possibly come up with that kind of reasoning, especially when they in fact know so little about the Wasteland. Propaganda is not an excuse, believing in it a lot is not an excuse (to form another parallel, the nazis believed they did good, when they ended up only doing bad, for everybody involved, and no Godwin's Law does not apply when the Enclave is clearly based on the Third Reich's omnicidal tendencies), Richardson's guts in the face of death (which is just useless fanatism to me, but anyway) is not an excuse.

Why is believing the propaganda not an excuse? The people in the Enclave have no point of comparison to say otherwise, especially those on the Rig; unless your saying that they are just born evil then I don't really think that there is any other reason that they are like they are. I've given an example of their ultra-reactionary nature in both the 70 years of dormancy and indeed the very Project itself; this type of behavior must have a source. The will to think of something different clearly doesn't exist for the most part, the propaganda affecting EVERYONE in the organisation is the only source I can think of. My own theory is that the first generation of people living on the ENCLAVE (i.e. the pre-war Enclave) feared that their decendants might want to leave for the mainland and that the Enclave/Government would fracture, so they set in motion the regime which later became what we saw. Life on and in the ENCLAVE/Enclave is unchanging and has been static for over 150 years, it is the norm, they don't question what they are told to do and adamantly believe it, present administration included.

Also, about Richardson being willing to die, we don't rightly know. If we had the option of taking him hostage and the guards shot him regardless, then he would have had a point. For what we know, he is just bluffing, and as a politician who has been in a family of rulers, he is a master at that kind of game. Not that it helps in the end.

As for Richardson bluffing, I think that that's a bit under-handedness on your part old sport; I can't certifyably prove you wrong but I don't see any reason why he would be bluffing. Because he is a politician and therefore a slimebag? His Vice President Daniel Bird was the first volunteered for the human trials of the innoculation based on the damn FEV. I see no reason why he should be bluffing you, he is in full control of the situation and giving his readiness to explain - in full length - his plan to you; he is almost gloating I would say, you can kill him like you so want too (reading the quotes actually makes the Chosen One seem rather juvenille IMO) but it won't change anything.

And how can you defend the Enclave and not their actions when they are one and the same? The Enclave IS the Project, they have no other stated goal than to eradicate everyone in a delusional ploy to take over the world for themselves, that's literally the extent of their importance, that's why I don't like the Enclave beyond their stylish Power Armors.

See above, I don't blame Richardson for his beliefs or anyone in the Enclave for being as believing in the Project as they are; I see them as mere products of their environment which was engineered to be the self-perpetuating, static regime that it is by the Enclave's ansestors. The Project is ultimately just a means to an end which, according to Richardson, is:

{304}{prs66}{As the embodiment of the executive branch, I bear the burden of ensuring the survival and prosperity of the United States and of humanity itself. A heavy burden and yet if it means the return of the earth to our children and to their children, I bear it gladly.}

I see them as nothing more than unfortunate products of their environment and a shockingly sad waste of potential; I see them as I see the citizens of Vault City and the common Legion soldiers (though I will say I only go to the mat for the Enclave), tools of cruel idealist individuals (whom in the case of the Enclave I believe those responsible are long dead) with agenda's only possible through the brainwashing and indoctrination of their instruments. To paraphrase Richardson (whom you can probably tell I am rather fond/sorry of) "God bless them. Every one."

 

[Ilosar]

So the ''original'' Enclave, who is apparently taking most of the blame here for some reason, had a ''in case of ugly big green men and radiation after our own damn government helped nuked the planet, device a genocidal plague by testing it on captured Tribals and Vault Dwellers in order to wipe the slate clean once more'' clause? You don't think this grand Project was initiated by those actually present? And even if they didn't, how can they not be blamed? Because ''just following orders'' is not a valid defense since Nuremberg, where the issue was less grave than apocalypse 2.0. The fact they were born in the Enclave doesn't mean they are uncapable of not making a moral judgement, and if those in the knowing truly believed wiping out the Earth would help anybody including them, then they are beyond hopeless, no matter what propaganda they have been fed.

Then again, it's implied that the vast majority didn't even know what the hell happened. Curling, Lead Scientist and all that, just needs a few choice words to go from being willing to eradicate Earth to unleashing his deadly virus on the Enclave itself. Can't say the propaganda made a good job on that one.

Look, we could argue all month, what remains is that their plan would only annihilate all life on earth, create a literally lifeless rock that would take decades to repopulate, if it was even possible, because the virus kills all mutants, and as far as we know even the plant life is largely mutated. It is impossible to condone or justify in any way, shape, or form, and becomes an even worse idea when we know that civilization is already returning to the Wasteland. No amount of speculation or digging into motives will make me believe that this plan came out of a sane mind or group of minds.

 

[The Enclave 86]

So the ''original'' Enclave, who is apparently taking most of the blame here for some reason, had a ''in case of ugly big green men and radiation after our own damn government helped nuked the planet, device a genocidal plague by testing it on captured Tribals and Vault Dwellers in order to wipe the slate clean once more'' clause? You don't think this grand Project was initiated by those actually present?

Oh I am fully able to accept that the Project is Richardson's brainchild, Mariposa was excavated in 2236 so yeah it must have been him. My point is the idea that something that grand and terrible as the only logical solution comes from the practices of the pre-war Enclave and the regime that they created.

And even if they didn't, how can they not be blamed? Because ''just following orders'' is not a valid defense since Nuremberg, where the issue was less grave than apocalypse 2.0. The fact they were born in the Enclave doesn't mean they are uncapable of not making a moral judgement, and if those in the knowing truly believed wiping out the Earth would help anybody including them, then they are beyond hopeless, no matter what propaganda they have been fed.

They are not following orders, they have all been delueded into believing that they are correct; some are capable of making moral judgements, as are some in these regimes. Most however are not, how can the basic citizens on the ENCLAVE even be considered people? They are uniformed drones that watch saftey films as entertainment.

Then again, it's implied that the vast majority didn't even know what the hell happened. Curling, Lead Scientist and all that, just needs a few choice words to go from being willing to eradicate Earth to unleashing his deadly virus on the Enclave itself. Can't say the propaganda made a good job on that one.

Yeah, a few choice and stupid words:

"Did you ever consider that evolution is *gasp* NATURAL!!!"

"No I never did come to that simple fact of basic biology, allow me to kill everyone I have ever known."

Also yeah, nobody on the ENCLAVE had ever been exposed to an outside force of reason that wasn't on an operating table; I'm not saying that Curling and Richardson aren't deluded fools, I'm giving reasons as to why they are like they are like they are. The very reason why they are so indoctrinated is because they have little to no external source of infomation or comparison, kind of like how these regimes exist in real life like China or the Middle East - unavailablity of infomation.

Look, we could argue all month, what remains is that their plan would only annihilate all life on earth, create a literally lifeless rock that would take decades to repopulate, if it was even possible, because the virus kills all mutants, and as far as we know even the plant life is largely mutated. It is impossible to condone or justify in any way, shape, or form, and becomes an even worse idea when we know that civilization is already returning to the Wasteland. No amount of speculation or digging into motives will make me believe that this plan came out of a sane mind or group of minds.

{204}{}{Oh, yes, well, I was getting to that'.The F.E.V. virus bond is species specific, it will only bond with human glyco-proteins. It only took a few years to tweak the F.E.V. virus to make it more lethal than it all ready was. The result was just what the doctor ordered, perfect in every way. }

Jesus dude, at least know the basics of what you are condoning. And 'take decades to repopulate' is your best objective arguement - it would be closer to centuaries. Look this isn't about the logistics of the Enclave's plan, I don't immediately give it my seal of approval but I will say objectively that a group of educated, healthy, dedicated people with access to very advanced levels of technology are certainly not the worst possible begining of a new human future I can forsee.

 

[Tagaziel]

Why should a new beginning happen in the first place? Humanity survived the nuclear war; in fact, the survivours and their children are far better candidates for such a beginning, since thanks to natural selection they are the toughest, hardiest bunch of SOBs in the Fallout world, whereas the Enclave is just weak.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Why should a new beginning happen in the first place? Humanity survived the nuclear war; in fact, the survivours and their children are far better candidates for such a beginning, since thanks to natural selection they are the toughest, hardiest bunch of SOBs in the Fallout world, whereas the Enclave is just weak.

Well not really, radiation doesn't build a stronger race and even by Fallout there are doctors and other medical professionals in the wasteland which render natural selection limited to only the tribal areas. Not only that but the NCR, Vault Dwellers, Vault City, Vault Dwellers, Adytum, technically Vault Dwellers? A lot of the biggest and most advanced places in the NCR today come from Vault Dwellers not wastelanders.

Look at the number of dwarfs in Fallout & Fallout 2; radiation induced increased genetic abnormalities, not progress.

 

[Tagaziel]

Well not really, radiation doesn't build a stronger race and even by Fallout there are doctors and other medical professionals in the wasteland which render natural selection limited to only the tribal areas. Not only that but the NCR, Vault Dwellers, Vault City, Vault Dwellers, Adytum, technically Vault Dwellers? A lot of the biggest and most advanced places in the NCR today come from Vault Dwellers not wastelanders.

The NCR is all the proof you ned that humanity has survived and prospered where the Enclave has failed: a large, safe, stable country.

Really, your prejudice towards wastelanders is totally irrational and baseless.

Look at the number of dwarfs in Fallout & Fallout 2; radiation induced increased genetic abnormalities, not progress.

The whole six of them across two games? Do notice that all of them (sans Gretch) are succesful businessmen, which is far more than an average Enclave citizen can say about himself.

 

[The Enclave 86]

The NCR is all the proof you ned that humanity has survived and prospered where the Enclave has failed: a large, safe, stable country.

Really, your prejudice towards wastelanders is totally irrational and baseless. .

I'm not prejudice, your thinking of the other guy quagmire; the NCR is by far the most successful - and rightfully so - organisation that we have currently seen. I don't support the Enclave's actions, merely revoke claims that they are the devil-incarnate whereas I see them as little more than victims of the sins of their fathers by 2242.

To be fair it's not like anyone in the Enclave has a damn chance at establishing any real kind of country when it's being run like it is; not that the Enclave isn't safe and stable.

The whole six of them across three games? Do notice that all of them (sans Gretch) are succesful businessmen, which is far more than an average Enclave citizen can say about himself.

No way, there's really only six? Point still stands as far as I am concerned, this is your claim that the people of the wasteland are actually better suited to living in it - I don't think that business accumen is a product of natural selection.

As for the Enclave see above, it's in no state to even have damn private property; besides it's no different to a Vault in that regard, long term survival shelters typically don't go hand-in-hand with consumerism.

 

[Tagaziel]

I'm not prejudice, your thinking of the other guy quagmire; the NCR is by far the most successful - and rightfully so - organisation that we have currently seen. I don't support the Enclave's actions, merely revoke claims that they are the devil-incarnate whereas I see them as little more than victims of the sins of their fathers by 2242.

To be fair it's not like anyone in the Enclave has a damn chance at establishing any real kind of country when it's being run like it is; not that the Enclave isn't safe and stable.

You can't relativize evil to such an extent. By your logic, Nazis shouldn't be condemned either. Or Soviets. In fact, mass murders are all just big misunderstandings, right?

Your logic is faulty.

No way, there's really only six? Point still stands as far as I am concerned, this is your claim that the people of the wasteland are actually better suited to living in it - I don't think that business accumen is a product of natural selection.

Stop clutching straws and just admit that you're wrong.