NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

[LinkPain]

If Fallout 3 is cannon it's a paradox, because it denies F1 and F2.

I don't see how it contradicts it any more the NV does. Look its impossible to have complex storie like falllout, with seven different games being produced and not have any contridictions. Does that mean we should just play the same old two dimemensional low graphics game that was great for its time and say that all future games are not being true to the story? Should we not make anymore of a superb series to preserve the purity of these two games?

What do you think?
F1 and 2 are the basis. The rest just picks up. Fallout 3 is fail copy.
FNV if you want you can look at it from a different angle, like it's a new game. But does it spit so much on the main story?
As in : I make supermachine, mutants as big as a freaking building, irradiated water purify machine, democratic alien robots and hero has to die before DLC?
Why would anyone buy into that bullshit if they have played the originals which will always be better without any DLC?

Mutants in Capital Wasteland didn't come from the Vats, not the Masters anyway if you wanna go that way. Bethesda Mutants are born dumb as shit, it's impossible for them to do the same as Lou did. And if the Enclave cannot make another Frank Horrigan how can a dumbass Mutant do that?

The vats in the vault, not the unity vats, the ones in the irradiated vault, and by the way the BOS are not idiots,. Irradiated humans work, thier just dummer than flat rocks, but that does'nt matter because the BOS will run out of power armour and people with the skill to use long before they run out of FEV. Why do you think that the Outcast left, its not because lyons is too nice, its because they think he'll get them killed with little to no gain.[/quote]

Because i would have left too, some deranged old maniac looking to kill all mutants(when they will eventually die out) and give free technology to everyone without checking them and all that while Enclave riding on his back is not worth my life. What resources does he take from to accomplish such a historical epic quest?
You can't run out of Power Armor as Brahmin Armor. It's mechanically automated system built to last with fusion power and can last longer than anything. But you can send a squad to get killed while wearing it.

And all this thing about BoS and Mutants you talk this whole time is based in Capital Wasteland that doesn't use the same fallout "story time laws". Why do you ask about it and try to compare it when you know the answer already as do we all. It's Bethesdas canon and it has nothing to do with the actual Fallout, be that one or two or whatever. We go back to my Pokemon example.
Oh wait you have the answer in Mothership Zeta, Aliens did all the shit on Earth!

So whatever is supposed to be sane is left in FNV, again as separate from Capital Wasteland. Because everyone can realize when they buy DLC from Beth for Fallout 3 that they patched the story in their own view so that it doesn't crumble into little pieces. And also that you were paying money for their bullshit.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

And thier looking for more.

And you think they'll find it? FEV isn't like Nuka Cola, you know.

Just look at the wasteland, the mutants probably already have the numbers they need.

The numbers they need for what? Take over the wasteland? The continent? Don't make me laugh. With all the problems Lyon's BoS has they manage to keep them at bay and they should pose a threat to more organized, bigger and well armed factions?

How many of the Brotherhood do you see compared to the mutants. You seem to be overlooking what everyone says throughout the game. The unending tide of green.

You seem to overlook other things shown and said in the game. The unending tide of green is ending (see above) and for every BoS member, Talon merc and well trained soldier that dies there are 4-5 SMs that bite the dust. Now that the SMs can't replace their losses things for them will get worse relatively quickly.

Everone you meet from Eden, to the lowliest wastelander will tell you that the mutants are unstopable. Listen to the loyal bos. Morale is low, and many are deserting to the outcast.

That was before knowing that the SMs were running out of FEV.

By the way I don't think lyons is nice

He is nice by BoS standards.

 

[Quagmire69]

mutants as big as a freaking building

Sounds cool to me, damn you are really bent out of shape about one of the most successful games ever made. I mean really if you want to compare fallout 2 to 3, just look at how much money each made.

He is nice by BoS standards.

No, hes a leader that sees that humanity will always be in jeopardy so long as their are mutants armies dipping people in vats of FEV. Too do that he needs recruits.

[/quote]

The numbers they need for what? Take over the wasteland? The continent? Don't make me laugh. With all the problems Lyon's BoS has they manage to keep them at bay

Don't forget that its not just the super mutants, look swamp folk. And if I remember correctly taking down an overlord is tougher than a squad of enclave troopers with incinerators and hellfire Armour.

and they should pose a threat to more organized, bigger and well armed factions?

And well armed, it does'nt get more well armed than the brotherhood and the enclave. I mean the only reason the NCR has won battles against either is because both have had bigger fish to fry. The Enclave relocated thier forces to the more sensible location of the east coast leaving Navarro largely unguarded, and the brotherhood have at least three large military exspeditions far away from the NCR and still are able to hold thier own. Honestly, how long woudl NCR last against full force of either the brotherhood or the enclave.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

No, hes a leader that sees that humanity will always be in jeopardy so long as their are mutants armies dipping people in vats of FEV. Too do that he needs recruits.

"But Elder Owyn Lyons had another priority, one he considered more important than his original directive or any orders received since – the protection of the innocent people of the Capital Wasteland. And so, Lyons sent word to his superiors that he would continue his search for technology when he was damned good and ready, and would not sacrifice the people who had come to rely on the bravery and strength of the Brotherhood of Steel.

[...]

Most of Elder Lyons’ soldiers supported his dedication to the people of the Capital Wasteland, and were proud of their leader’s commitment to honor and heroism.

[...]

He had become a man of compassion and understanding"

Sure, he's not fighting to protect the wastelanders. He just sees them as a mean to an end.

Don't forget that its not just the super mutants, look swamp folk.

Which are perfectly fine to live in their territory and -gameplay aside- aren't really that dangerous. They may be stronger than a human but certainly don't have the thick bullet-proof skin of SMs, are just as dumb and armed with weak weapons as rifles.

Honestly, how long woudl NCR last against full force of either the brotherhood or the enclave.

You are right, they wouldn't. But if the Enclave and/or the BoS had the numbers to take down the NCR they wouldn't have problems against the SMs either. Which -remember- where kept at bay by a small disorganized BoS contingent.

So, by transitive property, if the NCR can deal with a small BoS contingent (and they did) they can deal with the east coast SM threat.

But you have derailed the discussion. The original point is that the NCR had all the reasons to hunt down the Enclave, pre-war government or not. Their plan of eradicating mutations was nothing more than genocide because there were other more conventional ways to deal with the mutant "threat".

 

[White Knight]

Sounds cool to me, damn you are really bent out of shape about one of the most successful games ever made. I mean really if you want to compare fallout 2 to 3, just look at how much money each made

No he seems to have the right idea about Fallout 3. Its a terrible fallout game, and the fact that it sells well dosen't change anything.

 

[Arden]

But everyone knows that good sales mean its a good game! Hell, il go and buy another 200 copies of FO3 so it gets even better. If they only sold another million units even the engine-glitches would be gone!



Tell me, is my reasoning flawed in some way?

 

[Quagmire69]

But you have derailed the discussion.

Well i don't think I'm the only one but yes i have. Sorry didn't mean start out my membership in this forum by picking fights with everyone, honestly being a fallout 3 fan i had no idea people had such strong feelings about weather it contradicts cannon.

I still think that their writing is awefull, i mean i just never got sucked into the story the way i did with fallout 3 and put the game up by the time i got to level 17. I mean the Legion and the vegas families were two dimensional enough the but the NCR were just weird. I mean they seemed like a twisted combination of dodly-do-right and a Vietnam vet with PTSD, wrapped around the image of a demented cowboy. This would not have been so bad if they were minor faction, or even a major one, but not the main one who you were interacting with 90 percent of the game. The game just seemed to lack likable groups.

 

[White Knight]

But you have derailed the discussion.

Well i don't think I'm the only one but yes i have. Sorry didn't mean start out my membership in this forum by picking fights with everyone, honestly being a fallout 3 fan i had no idea people had such strong feelings about weather it contradicts cannon.

I still think that their writing is awefull, i mean i just never got sucked into the story the way i did with fallout 3 and put the game up by the time i got to level 17. I mean the Legion and the vegas families were two dimensional enough the but the NCR were just weird. I mean they seemed like a twisted combination of dodly-do-right and a Vietnam vet with PTSD, wrapped around the image of a demented cowboy. This would not have been so bad if they were minor faction, or even a major one, but not the main one who you were interacting with 90 percent of the game. The game just seemed to lack likable groups.

Thats the whole point. In the real world every political group has their pros and their cons, and none of them under close examination are really likable. I loved the story and what happened in the NCR questline actually made me feel guilty. I still supported them and I was quite happy with the ending I got. With most of the main questlines, you have to do a lot of unpleasant things to achieve what you want. I hated Fallout 3 because its so 2D and none of the choices had any real impact on me, its either good or bad, and very little grey areas and you never question whether what you do is good or not, because its so black and white. And they pretty much copied off Fallout 2 with the story.

 

[LinkPain]

But everyone knows that good sales mean its a good game! Hell, il go and buy another 200 copies of FO3 so it gets even better. If they only sold another million units even the engine-glitches would be gone!



Tell me, is my reasoning flawed in some way?

Yes, it will never get better. And no they won't use their money that way, they'll just pack their money and go on vacation. They used Fallout as jump start, nothing more. See all of their interviews, it's all "fuck you guys for not liking the game".
If they make Fallout 4 and it's way better then there is something to consider. But i seriously doubt it, they're better at claiming they reached the top of Mountain Everest or something like that.

@Quagmire69
If you want my personal explanation to the problem with cannon it's easy. Bethesda claimed so many things and all they did was make another FPS. And they tell hc players to shut it. And then they sold DLC to make it look like it's ok, when in fact they ripped everyone even more. And they get praised for it. Much like Bioware is for DA2 now. Wtf...?!
Obsidian never claimed anything epic, they did not undermine console or casual players. Hell, Dead Money went to Xbox first. They returned Fallout to it's roots as best as they could, and i think they did an awesome job.
So even if you blame them for "bad writing" (looking at what they all made i think you should look into their games more, story is their forte) that's true Fallout as much as you get. It only confirms that people want to shoot things more and ask questions later. That's not Fallout...unless you want to get supplies or something.

What would you like NCR to be?
Looking at them back before all i think it's purely logical for them to be this way.

 

[brfritos]

This is a bit off-topic, but since LinkPain touch the subject, NV is considered cannon, right? If so, certain events in FO3 need to be considered too, since they are discussed in the game. The Capital Wasteland BoS and Outcasts are one of them, as well Liberty Prime; deep facts about the formation of BoS are dicussed in FO3 and therefore, they are cannon since NV embrace it; thankfully the Super Mutants of FO3 are not cannon and the good old "master's army" are back; thanks to Bethesda, Harold is gone; John Henry Eden, the ZAX "president".
These are to be considered cannon or not?

And since some people are given so much importance to sales numbers to refer if a game is good or not, FNV sold more copies than FO3 when lauched.

 

[Hassknecht]

Nobody here cares about sales numbers. That's why idiots get flamed everytime they mention that Fallout 3 is good because it sold well.
The discussion about F3: canon (with one fucking n! A 'cannon' goes BOOM!) or not has its own thread:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54945

 

[Hassknecht]

/edit: Wow, I did a double post. Sorry about that.

 

[Dalex]

I think that F3 is cannon but only because it (at least to my knowledge) doesn't conflict with Fallout 1/2 and thats about only positive thing about it.
But lets get back to the topic.

 

[LinkPain]

The whole topic was trying to push through those canon limits.
I'm just saying that F3 can't be compared thanks to Bethesda. If they were capable of doing a good background story of Capital Wastelands which had a lot of potential since it was the most bombarded area by some logic, but they weren't. And they added Aliens to make even more ridiculous plot.

How can i try to compare Rhombus to "Star" Paladin Cross or John Maxson to Owyn Lyons?
Really HOW could anybody ?!
And then compare Unity to them and Enclave and NCR.

 

[Dalex]

The whole topic was trying to push through those canon limits.
I'm just saying that F3 can't be compared thanks to Bethesda. If they were capable of doing a good background story of Capital Wastelands which had a lot of potential since it was the most bombarded area by some logic, but they weren't. And they added Aliens to make even more ridiculous plot.

How can i try to compare Rhombus to "Star" Paladin Cross or John Maxson to Owyn Lyons?
Really HOW could anybody ?!
And then compare Unity to them and Enclave and NCR.

Yeah I know they are really uncomparable.

 

[LinkPain]

STARRRRKILLER Paladin Cross

And then plain and simple Rhombus

Really...

 

[Tagaziel]

They care about slaves and mutants, that liberal for the wasteland.

They do? Only the NCR Rangers cared about slaves in Fallout 2, the main body of the NCR had a "meh, whatever" approach. Remember, Vortis' Holding Center was located just a short walk from the bulletin board prohibiting slavery in the NCR.

As for the mutants, uhm, really? Where? They might tolerate mutants, but they do not specifically care about them. In fact, some of Boneyard reps to the NCR Congress target squatters and mutants in order to gain popular support. Just talk to the mercs ouside Jacobstown or Marcus.

That was the NCR from fallout 2 though when some of them even seemed to like the enclave. In vegas it appears they went soft.

Hardly. Pay attention whille you play the game.

 

[brfritos]

The whole topic was trying to push through those canon limits.
I'm just saying that F3 can't be compared thanks to Bethesda. If they were capable of doing a good background story of Capital Wastelands which had a lot of potential since it was the most bombarded area by some logic, but they weren't. And they added Aliens to make even more ridiculous plot.

One point that defines FO3 is this: wasted potential. The game could be soooo much better, but Bethesda choose coolness over content.
You have some sparks in the game, like Rivet City and Harkness quest, but overall the job was done very poorly.

And if you look over The Pitt and Point Lookout you can see good ideas on those, so it's not a matter if they are capable or not, making a crappy game full of shit and thinking "this is the way" was a conscious decision, that's the hard part to acknowledge.
Motership Zeta only confirms that.

That was the NCR from fallout 2 though when some of them even seemed to like the enclave. In vegas it appears they went soft.

Hardly. Pay attention whille you play the game.

Complete the quest Birds of a Feather sacrificing Cass, then you will see how "soft" the NCR was turned in NV.

[ ]'s

 

[LinkPain]

That was the NCR from fallout 2 though when some of them even seemed to like the enclave. In vegas it appears they went soft.

Hardly. Pay attention whille you play the game.

Complete the quest Birds of a Feather sacrificing Cass, then you will see how "soft" the NCR was turned in NV.

[ ]'s

I don't think that was so soft. What can you do to Energy selling barons better than killing them?
It was pretty brutal, imagine it like today's sanctions against Libya.
NCR killed their market and took the money off them anyway, don't know why there was nothing in the end mentioning Gun Runners killing that bitch and his brother because they tried to destroy their business too. BoS has a quest for that particular part too.
I say they got lucky. But NCR has them by their balls now.

EDIT: sorry i didn't read it rightly
What does the NCR do if you kill Cass?

 

[brfritos]

EDIT: sorry i didn't read it rightly
What does the NCR do if you kill Cass?

If you solve Cass quest peacifully the NCR blackmail the Van Graffs.
If you sacrifice Cass the NCR accept bribe from the Van Graffs and make an alliance against Caesar.

This is "soft"?

[ ]'s