NCR in New Vegas

[Bad_Karma]

The Nevada Desert Rangers were incorporated into the NCR Ranger ranks.

I understood that, but i didn't really unterstood in which area the 'Desert Ranger' were before joining up with the NCR.
So it seems as if they weren't 'domestic' in New Vegas, but than again why would they care that much about Vegas and the dam?
If they were somewhat aligned with Vegas and the population there before, why would the people now bitch so much about the NCR?

Maybe i should reread some infos, but the whole thing didn't get that clear to me yet.

 

[Forbidden]

I wouldn't judge how the whole NCR is doing by the picture you get in the Mojave.
I mean you shouldn't forget that they aren't that long in the era and it's not a really stable area there with the legion at the front door.
So it might look quite a bit different in areas without an enemy army on the other side of the river.

Along those lines, the NCR in the Mojave is quite similar to the US Army in the Mojave in the 1800s. The "old west" theme is everywhere. It is very much "the frontier". NCR's ability to project power is far less than it is back in California. You also mentioned the trains, which unfortunately wasn't shown much in FNV. It's suggested that NCR has a full train system working in California, but it still hasn't fully reached the mojave. Many people now forget just what a huge deal rail travel is. With rail travel set up between the NCR central and the Mojave, the NCR's ability to move troops, supplies, and goods will increase enormously.

I'm also annoyed that the roads haven't been repaired at all. One of the first things the NCR should have done was cobble the I-15 or I-95. This would allow brahmin to pull carts of goods.

 

[Alphadrop]

The Nevada Desert Rangers were incorporated into the NCR Ranger ranks.

I understood that, but i didn't really unterstood in which area the 'Desert Ranger' were before joining up with the NCR.

They were a group of rangers from around Nevada who protected it and decided to team up with the NCR because they couldn't take on Caesar on their own. To make it a bit confusing the NCR already had a different sort of ranger.

 

[Ausir]

They're also a reference to Wasteland, Fallout's predecessor.

 

[DForge]

the NCR did good, but it's not the point. It was obvious - well, at least to me - that humanity would form such a country sooner or later. One of the villages that will start growing, eating others and forming the New United States, over time.

What bothers me however is that NCR is essentialy what Enclave was - a government which much power centered in the person of President, with an army taking what it wants and annexing who it wants by force or dealing with shady characters (remember NCR-Bishops deal from Fallout 2?) much like Enclave was trading for chems with Salvatores. It's pretty much a "join or die" way of thinking, as far as I can tell: the bigger NCR is, the easier it is for them to bully bigger settlements with their flashy outfits and guns into joining. Then come taxes which aren't really that good for poor people trying to settle on the radiated land.

Which means the NCR eventually can - and I think it will - become a "new Enclave" with powerful authoritarian government. What's stopping them from eventually getting into another war with a "country" that emerged successful somewhere else on the globe - and even repeating the same nuclear holocaust again? We already see they are doing things the same "old" way.

That's why Mr House seems a better choice. ANything is better than repeating the same nuclear holocaust again. And in fallout world, it's inevitable.

 

[Ausir]

What bothers me however is that NCR is essentialy what Enclave was - a government which much power centered in the person of President

"a government which much power centered in the person of President" is what the United States is in general, in both our and Fallout world, not just the Enclave or the NCR. What the Enclave essentialy was, however, is "genocidal maniacs", which the NCR is not. And unlike the Enclave or the Legion, they grant full citizenship rights to the people of annexed areas. And in the cases of Legion and House, the power is even more centered in the hands of an individual, who cannot be replaced without the whole thing falling apart.

Then come taxes which aren't really that good for poor people trying to settle on the radiated land.

The taxes are what finances the army and police, which actually does ensure the safety of citizens. Most of the people you meet are not in slavery or dead yet only thanks to NCR. What has Mr. House done for the protection of regular wastelanders?

 

[Forbidden]

What has Mr. House done for the protection of regular wastelanders?

To be fair, House has been rather constrained in his power before the events of FNV. He was largely reliant on Hoover Dam for electricity, and only had enough robots to patrol Vegas itself.

 

[Ausir]

House is too concerned with his plans for Humanity to think about the good of any actual people.

 

[DForge]

"a government which much power centered in the person of President" is what the United States is in general, in both our and Fallout world, not just the Enclave or the NCR.

I'm not commenting on real world cause Fallout isn't one Presidental rules failed once. What's the guarantee they will not fail again? There is none. In Fallout, humanity went straight to the big mushroom ending; what's stopping it from doing this again? I'd say, something like House's plan: no authoritarian presidential rule. Robotic "utopia" sounds much better than repeating the same old scenario of a country getting strong, clashing with another and annihilating everything including itself.

What the Enclave essentialy was, however, is "genocidal maniacs", which the NCR is not.

It doesn't have the power of the old US, but once it becomes a great empire, and meet other countries that emerged from nuclear fire (I assume there is more out there than just US remnants of people), what stops the history from repeating itself? NCR takes things it likes by force, just like Enclave. It's built around the same principle and has a similar form of government.

And unlike the Enclave or the Legion, they grant full citizenship rights to the people of annexed areas. And in the cases of Legion and House, the power is even more centered in the hands of an individual, who cannot be replaced without the whole thing falling apart.

House seems a person that's dedicated to helping humanity rather than creating another petty country to crush the other ones "for the glory of US/NCR/China/Whatever". NCR is just another country that will most likely do what its precedent government did: try to rule. And we have the proof, too: just look at their actions. They want to control everything. They wrestle the Helios ONE from BoS, for instance. They are not exactly your peace& love faction.

NCR is representing "the old America". To me (at least in Fallout universe) "Old" way of governing failed. Humanity needs a grand plan and House is a man with a plan. Humanity doesn't need another Enclave-wannabe.

The taxes are what finances the army and police, which actually does ensure the safety of citizens. Most of the people you meet are not in slavery or dead yet only thanks to NCR. What has Mr. House done for the protection of regular wastelanders?

I'd say the protection sucks. Powder Gangers, Fiends, groups like The Legion - NCR seems incompetent and powerless. They wrestle what they want, annex what they can and then fail to protect the lands they annexed. The Enclave was at least effective in what they were doing. House isn't exactly in a position to rule over Mohave, as noticed. He's not a force to be compared with NCR - it's just a ruler of the City, compared to the Republic which is pretty much a small country. At least at the time the game takes place. His plan needs some time.

I think all factions - even the Legion - can do well to provide safety to their lands, given the rest is eliminated. The question however is what happens next. My guesses:

House: Proceeds with his plans. Which are something new and might even work. Doesn't hurt to try.

NCR: Becomes more and more powerful. Eventually, after many years of rebuilding, becomes the New United States. It's open whether history will or won't repeat itself once it clashes with another country from other part of the Globe.

Legion: After death of Ceasar, it crumbles and eventually falls, breaking into bands of thugs.


Supporting the Legion is imho pointless in the long run. If we want to play a little "humanity savior", NCR offers nothing other than things already done in the past: Another strong country that has absolutely no guarantee of not repeating the mushroom hellfire again. House doesn't seem powerful enough to make a difference, but I like the grasp of something different - not repeating the same old way again. Hence I'm mr House supporter in this game and - since the topic is about NCR - I think NCR will repeat the history of old US one day.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

[spoiler:807830771d]What I found a bit of a shame was that you couldn't tell the NCR at HELIOS One about ARCHIMEDES2.

It would have been an interesting quest development if you could tell them about it and that they now want to use it to wipe the Caesar's Legion of the face of the Earth.[/spoiler:807830771d]

Yeah, now that as you mention it that is kinda surprising me as well

I wished they had done more with it, having three different quest paths should you use it as a weapon.
[spoiler:807830771d]Caesar might want to have it destroyed while the NCR wants to use it to destroy the Legion, the BOS just wants to keep it out of the hands of either party.[/spoiler:807830771d]

 

[Ausir]

I'd say, something like House's plan: no authoritarian presidential rule

It's not presidential, but only because nobody elected him - it's still authoritarian.

It's built around the same principle and has a similar form of government.

It has a similar form of government just because both have government based on pre-War US. The Enclave is, however, built around the principle of racial purity. The NCR is not, and it even accepts ghouls and super mutants as citizens.

'd say the protection sucks. Powder Gangers, Fiends, groups like The Legion - NCR seems incompetent and powerless.

The NCR forces in the Mojave are small and overstretched, but they are pretty good at providing protection back home, and they are the ones that stopped the Legion at the first battle of Hoover Dam.

The Enclave was at least effective in what they were doing.

That's because they did not care about protecting anyone. The NCR does for the most part, even if some of its leaders are corrupt.

After death of Ceasar, it crumbles and eventually falls, breaking into bands of thugs.

And what do you think would happen to House's plan after his death? At least a republic will live on even if individual leaders are gone.

NCR offers nothing other than things already done in the past: Another strong country that has absolutely no guarantee of not repeating the mushroom hellfire again.

I see no such guarantee with House. It's just another randroid utopia, which relies too heavily on one egomaniacal person, just like BioShock's Rapture.

 

[DForge]

It's not presidential, but only because nobody elected him - it's still authoritarian.

His goals and goals of NCR president are vastly different.

NCR wants, as I said before, to rule. Like every other government.
House wants to help humanity.

Big difference.

It has a similar form of government just because both have government based on pre-War US. The Enclave is, however, built around the principle of racial purity. The NCR is not, and it even accepts ghouls and super mutants as citizens.

And hires mercs to harass Jacobstown.

But you are right, NCR is based on pre-war US. Keep in mind however that it's the pre-war US and not enclave that is responsible for the Nuclear Holocaust: the Enclave is merely everything that is LEFT of the old US government.

Which means NCR may follow in the footsteps of old US eventually, right? Why not, after all history likes to repeat itself. Especially if we re-create a nation with the same set of rules, government and foreign policy. In such case, history repeating itself is pretty much - imho of course, it's speculation - certain

The NCR forces in the Mojave are small and overstretched, but they are pretty good at providing protection back home, and they are the ones that stopped the Legion at the first battle of Hoover Dam.

Oh, they are good at protecting their motherland, of that I'm certain. But not so great at protecting the annexed territories. It's not that "poor at protecting" = "losing the control entirely". It only means that the country is plagued by gangers and fiends, NCR doing nothing.

That's because they did not care about protecting anyone. The NCR does for the most part, even if some of its leaders are corrupt.

NCR protects only what has enough value to them. The Dam, for instance. I wouldn't call creating small powerless camps "protecting" - the NCR officers, when questioned, admit they have the order not to engage the gangs, their hands are tied behind their backs by the officials. Is this just a propaganda of NCR aimed towards people - that they actually "protect" them by making small immobilized outposts?

And what do you think would happen to House's plan after his death? At least a republic will live on even if individual leaders are gone.

And this also mean they might get replaced by "leaders" such as Richardson. Idiots and maniacs that will lead NCR into another war.

House will probably - given enough room - make preparations for his vision to continue after his death. Since he places a lot of trust in the machines, it will probably be connected to them, not some human successor.

I see no such guarantee with House. It's just another randroid utopia, which relies too heavily on one person.

I think it's worth a try - compared to NCR, which follows a path humanity already went through- along with its ending. Pretty messy one. House may fail, but I think plans like his are the only way for humanity in Fallout world. NCR is following the old path again and it sucks. I'd rather try different solutions for mankind this time, even if a little crazy or risky like House's one.

 

[Ausir]

And hires mercs to harass Jacobstown.

While House hires you to kill the Brotherhood of Steel.

Which means NCR may follow in the footsteps of old US eventually, right?

May or may not. Not every US government, even in the Fallout universe, was as crazy as the one that eventually formed the Enclave and led to the Great War.

It only means that the country is plagued by gangers and fiends, NCR doing nothing.

They are doing as much as they can. If not for the threat from the Legion, they'd be more effective at fighting the raiders and gangers. There are examples of them fighting the gangs, though, like the ones at Primm fighting the convicts or the 1st Recon fighting Fiends.

And this also mean they might get replaced by "leaders" such as Richardson. Idiots and maniacs that will lead NCR into another war.

House will probably - given enough room - make preparations for his vision to continue after his death. Since he places a lot of trust in the machines, it will probably be connected to them, not some human successor.

So instead of with another Richardson we might end up with another Eden or Calculator. Can't see how this could go wrong.

I think it's worth a try - compared to NCR, which follows a path humanity already went through- along with its ending. Pretty messy one. House may fail, but I think plans like his are the only way for humanity in Fallout world. NCR is following the old path again and it sucks. I'd rather try different solutions for mankind this time, even if a little crazy or risky like House's one.

NCR might be "following the old path", but I certainly wouldn't say that it sucks to be an NCR citizen, compared to pretty much everyone else. And if anyone is obsessed with the past, it's House, with his reconditioning of tribals into emulating pre-War Vegas and whatnot.

 

[Crni Vuk]

His goals and goals of NCR president are vastly different.

NCR wants, as I said before, to rule. Like every other government.
House wants to help humanity.

Debatable. House kinda wants to "reach the stars", maybe in 50 years he will pacify the wasteland, maybe in 100 years reach new frontiers for "his" people! (how he describes ...). That doesnt sound to me like a all to realistic goal. Or a healthy one for that matter. Not that far away from Kay-zer Sözes (pronounced /ˈkaɪzər ˈsoʊzeɪ/ KYE-zər SOH-zay) idea to give the whole wasteland piece by conquering all because he has the idea that poor wastelanders are in better situations as slaves.

From all the solutions I would assume the NCR is the most realistic one considering how long they are around. Not so much cause the NCR is backed up by one person but because there are a institution while the legion and house both are tied to one single indidivual. If house is out of the game the families on the strip would start battling each other at some point with freeside beeing the ball. Without their leader the Legin is merely more then some tribials on a roman love trip. But as shown with the NCR even without Tandy which ruled for quite some time as president they continue to exist. Maybe not as ideal democracy, but they are the clostest you can get in the wasteland and they seem not to be much worse then letz say early european or US democracies around the 18 century. Maybe not even much worse then quite a few "modern" democracies.

 

[Forbidden]

House kinda wants to "reach the stars", maybe in 50 years he will pacify the wasteland, maybe in 100 years reach new frontiers for "his" people! (how he describes ...).

It's important to note that there is no indication that House is particular to "his" people. He's certainly not like the Enclave wanting to wipe out everyone else. I didn't take his "reach the stars" to mean he was planning on colonizing Alpha Centauri or anything. I took it as poetic license to for bringing back the full technological advances and infrastructure to have a space program.

That doesnt sound to me like a all to realistic goal. Or a healthy one for that matter. Not that far away from Kay-zer Sözes (pronounced /ˈkaɪzər ˈsoʊzeɪ/ KYE-zər SOH-zay) idea to give the whole wasteland piece by conquering all because he has the idea that poor wastelanders are in better situations as slaves.

Except that House doesn't want to kill most of the populace and turn the rest into slaves. Given that house has integrated Vault-dwellers, three different tribal clans, and NCR citizens into his city, he has shown to be the most open-minded around, short of Yes-Man. (who we can all agree is the most agreeable)

From all the solutions I would assume the NCR is the most realistic one considering how long they are around. Not so much cause the NCR is backed up by one person but because there are a institution while the legion and house both are tied to one single indidivual. If house is out of the game the families on the strip would start battling each other at some point with freeside beeing the ball. Without their leader the Legin is merely more then some tribials on a roman love trip. But as shown with the NCR even without Tandy which ruled for quite some time as president they continue to exist. Maybe not as ideal democracy, but they are the clostest you can get in the wasteland and they seem not to be much worse then letz say early european or US democracies around the 18 century. Maybe not even much worse then quite a few "modern" democracies.

One thing that really annoyed the heck out of me is that they never really went into whether the NCR is really governed by the rule of law, or if the congress/president have absolute powers. I don't recall anything mentioned of NCR law or any system of justice. The closest it comes to is with regards to the powder gangers, but all that comes up is that powder gangers did bad things and got sentenced to prison. There's no talk of the actual mechanic of that and whether or not it is, in any way, a just system.

 

[Nalano]

I find this whole debate over the political implications vis a vis the NCR and the Legion rather silly, for two reasons:

1) Taxes aren't evil.
2) The Roman Empire crumbled. (Also, Rome charged taxes, too.)

I'm not saying the NCR are the good guys and Caesar's Legion are the bad guys. When you speak with him, Caesar is right in that the most effective form of government is that of an enlightened dictatorship. The biggest problem with that is

1) Finding an enlightened dictator.
2) Realizing he's not going to live forever.

Lo and behold, his example - Tandi of the NCR - and his own medical problems illustrate that point quite well. And this is why a democracy is second best: It may not make for bold, effective, decisive leadership, but it more often than not stops misrule cold. Case in point, Caesar's second-in-command is a nutjob - Caesar himself admitted so - and all it takes for him to get into power is the death of Caesar.

There is no "good" choice, there is only the "least bad" choice, and here it means the choice that results in the lowest death toll, and for me that involved throwing my lot in with the NCR and convincing everybody else to do so as well. Caesar's legion would have rolled over the whole region - and we already had a fiery cataclysm: This game is, after all, called Fallout - and either House or the anarchic endings would have merely prolonged a war of attrition that left banditry and chaos in its wake.

Remember: House's entire army is situated in one city and cannot extend far beyond it. He is and can only be a minor player. Caesar has amassed his entire legion to take this one point - a point that the NCR has not thrown its whole weight in defending, yet still holds Caesar back from. While the NCR is presently overstretched, it can and will be able to defend and rule the Mojave plus California at the same time. Caesar cannot - and, indeed, the difficulty of marching legions far from the center of the empire was part of how the actual Roman empire imploded.

(Oh yeah, and as for why melee tactics work well against a modern army: We're talking a post-apocalyptic modern army. Machine guns are fantastic until they run out of bullets, and who's to say how many bullets there are?)

 

[Bad_Karma]

I'm not saying the NCR are the good guys and Caesar's Legion are the bad guys. When you speak with him, Caesar is right in that the most effective form of government is that of an enlightened dictatorship. The biggest problem with that is

1) Finding an enlightened dictator.
2) Realizing he's not going to live forever.

Well there are a few problems with that.
Let's speak a second about Frederick II of Prussia or as we call them here in my City ("Unser alter Firtz" - our old Fritz), judging by wikipedia he is counted as an 'enligtend absolutist', and he made Prussia really great. Problem is, he also nearly destroyed Prussia because it was a great amount of luck that Prussia didn't get crushed between Austria, France, Russia, Saxony and Sweden.
Real big luck, because if i'm not wrong one shoot at him was stopped by his snuffbox (don't know if that translation is right, so i mean a box for holding smokeless tobaco).

(Oh yeah, and as for why melee tactics work well against a modern army: We're talking a post-apocalyptic modern army. Machine guns are fantastic until they run out of bullets, and who's to say how many bullets there are?)

[/quote]

Well it's in a post-apocalyptic world where there are also grenades and 'Claymore'-mines and such. And the NCR hold both, MG's and grenades...
So you need quite a lot of cannon fodder to get to the NCR soldiers, at least on such a battlefield like the dam. Or when using real roman tactics of closed packed heavy infantry (or in the case of the technology and the weapon level the Legion posses in NV, would be more 'close packed very light infantry/skirmishers').

But then again, the engine simple isn't really able to give a good picture of how many soldiers the legion got and how many the NCR got and so on. So i would judge by what the game tells us and that is that the legion know how to fight and their tactic might actually work out if you don't follow the NCR in a trap.

---

To the whole 'House = humanitarian' thing, that came up now.
So how exactly is someone who's killing people without money who want to enter the strip and don't even try to rebuilt water supply or other things for them count as really good?

House unifited the 'families' and didn't drive them out because he needed human labour force. Not because he loved any of them or thinks they deserve any good.

All House wants is to realize his strange ideas - and they are strange if you take a look at the strip. Instead of rebuilding some 'Tool making' facilities and the family buisness which might do real good and give Vegas some real industry, which is needed for proper rebuilding, he rebuilts the casinos.

The NCR in contrast rebuilts industry or at least supply lines. Who's running the real energy plants in NV? The NCR. Who's supplying Vegas with water and food? Well not alone, but also the NCR.
I mean a certain brahmin-baron comes from where? NCR-territory.

So let's recount the options there seem to be for the people of NV:
a) surrendering to the Legion and hoping you will get a real Legionaire and not just some slave or crucified body.
b) following house, who as some people in the game put it, made it all worse by throwing a lot of people out of the strip and seem only care about some megalomanic idea.
c) accepting the NCR who does at least what it can to protect you and tries to supply the population with all that's necessary. At the moment they don't manage to do all well, but they try.

The NCR clearly is not an utopia (That we only found at Black Mountain *snickers*.), but it's the single beste option you could choose out of the availabe options.
Sure if you a member of the Khans or you're a member of one of the families, than you might take another option. But as a normal guy of New Vegas there's not another real good choice, at least not at the moment.

But everyones free for his own opinion

 

[DForge]

Bad_Karma: rebuilding the casinos was brilliant. haven't you notice how NCR says the casinos will bleed them dry? House gets a MAJOR profit for keeping them. Keep in mind that you need funds to do great things and House acquires them in a very clever way. Building forges and all of that would give house another city with forges and mills. Building casinos gives House a gold mountain.

While House hires you to kill the Brotherhood of Steel.

Brotherhood of steel is useless to humanity and highly dangerous as it contains techs one side (be it Caesar or NCR) will acquire once they conquer OR ally BoS. This might mean trigger happy soldiers with gauss rifles instead of carbines. This means they will become even more powerful and closer to the enclave, that they will have a much easier way to invade and conquer everything. Not to mention BoS archives may contain data on nuclear weaponry which should never reach NCR. This is of course speculation, but given the thought, I agree with House that it is best to eradicate BoS from this world. It's dangerous if its techs get captured by a faction willing to use them for more killing. And since BoS is dying out, it probably will either get conquered or ally with a faction like NCR and give away their techs finally, by barter or force.

May or may not. Not every US government, even in the Fallout universe, was as crazy as the one that eventually formed the Enclave and led to the Great War.

NCR follows the same political system. Getting another crazy president or crazy congress is just a matter of time. (Speculation ofc. But the risk is too big to allow another autocratic HUMAN republic. One like that already ended up the world and another is being shaped to its pre-war glory.

They are doing as much as they can. If not for the threat from the Legion, they'd be more effective at fighting the raiders and gangers. There are examples of them fighting the gangs, though, like the ones at Primm fighting the convicts or the 1st Recon fighting Fiends.

With scum like Nipton Mayor promoted to highest seats. NCR is as much about law as our modern world is. And we all know that model fails (and in Fallout universe, it fails CRITICALLY.)

So instead of with another Richardson we might end up with another Eden or Calculator. Can't see how this could go wrong.

Eden (non-canon aside) was Enclave's work and using Enclave's codex. "Eden" created by Mr. House would be shaped in his spirit. Which is humanitarism. I'd rather have a sentient computer to try to govern the wasteland over another Enclave-to-be.

NCR might be "following the old path", but I certainly wouldn't say that it sucks to be an NCR citizen, compared to pretty much everyone else. And if anyone is obsessed with the past, it's House, with his reconditioning of tribals into emulating pre-War Vegas and whatnot.

Which brings him a ton of money seeing how NCR troopers get obsessed with his cassinos and spent a lot of money there. Rebuilding something like Vegas impresses people and encourages them to leave their wallet there. A brilliant plan if you ask me.

I think it's fine to be an NCR citizen. It was pretty much better to be a pre-war US citizen too. What does it change? The government is what makes the faction bad future-wise. It follows a path that ended up badly once. Giving the same way another chance if there is an alternative (like going with people like House) doesn't seem very appealing to me. Even if House fails anyway, NCR will prevail because it's all about wrestling parts of pre-war goods from others with guns. That never fails with superior numbers.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well it's in a post-apocalyptic world where there are also grenades and 'Claymore'-mines and such. And the NCR hold both, MG's and grenades...
So you need quite a lot of cannon fodder to get to the NCR soldiers, at least on such a battlefield like the dam. Or when using real roman tactics of closed packed heavy infantry (or in the case of the technology and the weapon level the Legion posses in NV, would be more 'close packed very light infantry/skirmishers').

Considering how the damn is constructed with only 2 very narrow paths I would assume even a handfull of people could hold of a whole army with just a single machinegun here and there. That is if the attackers dont have access to advanced artillery, rockets and such. But even that is not always guarantuee for a "win" if the defenders have access to supplies and replacements for example in N-Korea the US forces I think never managed even with bombers, artillery and tanks to take up a specific heavily fortified hill, simply cause they had to attack upwards and they never managed to succesfully attack the position from the rear cuting the supply routes of the enemy. Same reason why the advance in Italy around 1943 ended almost in a stalemate for a short time because the Germans had almost no trouble to get reserves to the front and itally doesnt allow here for many tactical movements cause of the rather narrow conditions. They tried to bypass the defences by opening up a front in the rear near Anzio, but that proved to be devastating once the landing troops got shelled heavily by German artillery in the rear.

"The Winter Line proved a major obstacle to the Allies at the end of 1943, halting their advance on the Fifth Army's front, the western side of Italy. Although the Gustav Line was penetrated on the Eighth Army's Adriatic front and Ortona taken, blizzards, drifting snow and zero visibility at the end of December caused the advance to grind to a halt. The Allies focus then turned to the western front where an attack through the Liri valley was considered to have the best chance of a breakthrough towards Rome. Landings at Anzio during Operation Shingle, advocated by Churchill, behind the line were intended to destabilise the German Gustav line defences, but the early thrust inland to cut off the German defences did not occur, thanks again to the indecisiveness of the American commander (General Lucas),[citation needed] and the Anzio forces became bottled up in their beach head.

It took four major offensives between January and May 1944 before the line was eventually broken by a combined assault of the Fifth and Eighth Armies (including British, US, French, Polish, and Canadian Corps) concentrated along a twenty mile front between Monte Cassino and the western seaboard. At the same time the forces at Anzio broke out of their beachhead but an opportunity to cut off and destroy a large part of the German Tenth Army retreating from the Gustav Line was lost when, on the brink of success, the Anzio forces changed their direction of attack to move parallel with the coast to capture Rome.[14] Rome was declared an open city by the German Army and the US forces took possession on 4 June 1944"

 

[Nalano]

I'm not saying the NCR are the good guys and Caesar's Legion are the bad guys. When you speak with him, Caesar is right in that the most effective form of government is that of an enlightened dictatorship. The biggest problem with that is

1) Finding an enlightened dictator.
2) Realizing he's not going to live forever.

Well there are a few problems with that.
Let's speak a second about Frederick II of Prussia or as we call them here in my City ("Unser alter Firtz" - our old Fritz), judging by wikipedia he is counted as an 'enligtend absolutist', and he made Prussia really great. Problem is, he also nearly destroyed Prussia because it was a great amount of luck that Prussia didn't get crushed between Austria, France, Russia, Saxony and Sweden.
Real big luck, because if i'm not wrong one shoot at him was stopped by his snuffbox (don't know if that translation is right, so i mean a box for holding smokeless tobaco).

One could argue that Mehmed II made the Ottoman Empire and Selim II sealed its doom.

One could argue that Genghis made the Mongol Empire and the circumstances following Ogedei's death caused it to fracture.

The communist states of Russia and China are commonly chronologued through the rule and misrule of their leaders, as well as the reforms their respective successors carried out.