NCR Ranger Armor and Pelit scans

[The Goon]

I'm actually impressed by SuAside's knowledge of human autonomy if it is accurate. But damn dude its a game not reality. I doubt that there will be that many MDs playing FO:NV thinking to themselves how partial the armor may or may not be. Also I don't remember anything really "retro-fifties" about the armors from the original FO games, aside from the power armor Just saying.

 

[Crni Vuk]

he is right though the sides are pretty unprotected.

Though its not that far away from real life sadly ... as a friend told me once about his duty in the German Army they got some body armor which wasnt really giving you a good protection to the sides actualy almost no one. He said once someone would get you from the flank it would be really dangerous. But I guess they just dont give usual grunts the best armor available.

 

[Jidai Geki]

neck protection would be nice too, but that would be a bit picky.

Haha, that would be a bit too picky?

It's worth remembering that this is concept art for a post-apocalytpic game which features robots, supermutants and giant mutated chameleons. It's not a design for the US Army's latest body armour, so I can kind of forgive them their lack of verisimilitude.

 

[Kahgan]

I think people are straying a bit from the important aspect of the armour: it looks like crap. Even if it was realistic, it would still look like crap, and it definitely does not have the Fallout-look.

So I'll second SuAside's fuck that.

 

[Brother None]

It's worth remembering that this is concept art for a post-apocalytpic game which features robots, supermutants and giant mutated chameleons. It's not a design for the US Army's latest body armour, so I can kind of forgive them their lack of verisimilitude.

I don't think that's how you use verisimilitude, and you'd think that in a world with robots, supermutants and deathclaws, armor would be better in design, not worse.

 

[Alphadrop]

Digging those shoulder pads though, the rest not so much. I think they were constricted in what they could do is as it sill has to look like the crappy Fallout 3 combat armour, as seen by the near identical lower half.

 

[Lexx]

Maybe it was just easier to edit the existing combat armor than doing a 100% new thing.


But anyway... this thing looks far better than the crappy Fallout 3 combat armor.

 

[Jidai Geki]

It's worth remembering that this is concept art for a post-apocalytpic game which features robots, supermutants and giant mutated chameleons. It's not a design for the US Army's latest body armour, so I can kind of forgive them their lack of verisimilitude.

I don't think that's how you use verisimilitude, and you'd think that in a world with robots, supermutants and deathclaws, armor would be better in design, not worse.

I have no desire to engage in another tangential semantics debate, so we'll have to agree to disagree on my use of that particular word. As for the design of the armour, it's post-apocalyptic. They probably have to make do with whatever armour they can get their hands on. Also, and I may have already mentioned this, but it's concept art.

 

[Arden]

Suaside and Cnri Vuk are both right. Normal Army-issue Bodyarmor is a vest made from kevlar. This is enough to stop hollowpoint or softpoint bullets from pistols and allegedly even FMJ 9 mm parabellum (at least the swiss army version, although I wouldn’t bet my life on it). Protection from hard hi-velocity bullets like 5.56 NATO FMJ can only be achieved by inserting metallic ceramic plates into pockets in the vest. There are pockets in the front and back but not on the sides. The plates are bulky and pretty heavy (a vest with plates weights a bit more than 20 kg). If you put plates on the side it would hinder your arm movement and add some more kgs. I was first trained to present the side of the body to the enemy to reduce target size. Later, as we were issued bodyarmor, we had to relearn to present the front, making for a lager target but getting the plate in the way. Kevlar makes injuries actually worse if the bullet manages to penetrate because it slows and deforms the bullet.

Then again, military bodyarmor is mainly about protection from fragmentation and not bullets. That’s why neck protection is a must (high collar). Groin is tricky, Kevlar works against frags but even a plate wont help you against a bullet. Blunt trauma would certainly take you out of a fight and reduce your chances of future parenthood to near zero. Even chest hits results in a few broken ribs and possibly internal bleeding.

Weight is a real issue too, because a soldier (unlike a police-swat team for example) needs to be mobile for a long time and has to carry a lot of other stuff and gear. Cost is also a factor, buying a couple of dozen high-grade armors for your police force is not an issue. Doing the same for 100’000 soldiers is.

As for flanking… tactics is all about flanking the enemy first and preventing him from doing it to you. If you do get flanked, weak sidearmor wont be a problem, your fucked anyway (unless you vastly outnumber the enemy). If flanked, run or surrender. No amount of bodyarmor will help, it would just reduce your options to surrender because you can’t run fast enough.

In a post-apocalyptic scenario, wandering the wastes alone, I wouldn’t bother with heavy bodyarmor. Its heavy and cumbersome, you need to change the plates after two or three hits anyway and you sweat like a pig under that thing. I hated to run around in one of those things, even for short exercises. Best thing about them is taking them off after a long day. You get the feeling that your about to float off anytime.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Actually Interceptor has pockets for side plates, I'm not sure if the higher ups in the military decided to stop using them all together but I know that in the early days, soldiers would remove the side plates for mobility/flexibility. Dragonskin is really the right direction in terms of design, it's just that the adhesive that they (originally?) used would fail in temperatures above something like 110 degrees Fahrenheit.

I agree that modern body armor (particularly Interceptor) would be pretty undesirable in a PA setting. A breastplate would probably be the ideal "heavy" armor, as it's pretty effective at stopping bullets and quite durable.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Suaside and Cnri Vuk are both right. Normal Army-issue Bodyarmor is a vest made from kevlar. This is enough to stop hollowpoint or softpoint bullets from pistols and allegedly even FMJ 9 mm parabellum (at least the swiss army version, although I wouldn’t bet my life on it). Protection from hard hi-velocity bullets like 5.56 NATO FMJ can only be achieved by inserting metallic ceramic plates into pockets in the vest. There are pockets in the front and back but not on the sides. The plates are bulky and pretty heavy (a vest with plates weights a bit more than 20 kg). If you put plates on the side it would hinder your arm movement and add some more kgs. I was first trained to present the side of the body to the enemy to reduce target size. Later, as we were issued bodyarmor, we had to relearn to present the front, making for a lager target but getting the plate in the way. Kevlar makes injuries actually worse if the bullet manages to penetrate because it slows and deforms the bullet.

I have read this was a problem in the 70s or 80s when they started to use body armor in police forces and particularly specialiced units like the SWAT regularly. At some point they noticed that the lethality of gun shoots at the chest area decreased but it was soon revealed that the area around the side and arms was unprotected and more officers suffered here lethal wounds in fact there have been situations where officers died in action which would not happen with modern vests today which have even for the side better protections against certain small arms. Though those modern balistic vests are much heavier and of course mean less mobility. And they still dont give perfect protection. But thats probably not really possible at the moment.

Thing is that they probably even could do a vest that gives you almost 100% protection against all common weapons of usual size. But the kind of mobility one has to sacrifice for it is in no relation with the protection.

This is a body armor usualy in use with bomb squads and from what I have read it gives a very good protection for most situations

Thing is just that I cant see many people use that in combat or some fire fight efficiently. Hence why I think the idea of the power armor is so important in Fallout as it does not only give you a excelent protection but also gives you great mobility and allows for better battle awarnes.

Actually Interceptor has pockets for side plates, I'm not sure if the higher ups in the military decided to stop using them all together but I know that in the early days, soldiers would remove the side plates for mobility/flexibility. Dragonskin is really the right direction in terms of design, it's just that the adhesive that they (originally?) used would fail in temperatures above something like 110 degrees Fahrenheit.

The situation about the so called dragon skin armor in relation with the US military is pretty interesting in my eyes as there are a lot of controversial discussions about it. It seems that it is overall a more efficient armor compared to the more regular design but they refuse to use that as standart equipment for their soldiers. If it is really cause of the temperature and quality of the armor in heat or if its as some say simply the manufacturer of the old armor trying do everything to not loose his bigest consumer ... I dont know it.

But its not like companies and certain weapon developers had nothing to say in the choice for the M16 as the standart rifle for the new century for the US military even when there have been better designs available ...

fact is that with its around 400+ Million dollar budget the US military is one of the bigest employers in the US. And to loose such a buyer is probably not that good for a company.

 

[Tagaziel]

"note how scarf is now tucked", hurr durr.

Because having it hanging around freely is the best way to hold on to it in desert winds.

one would expect a ranger to be able to shoulder a rifle, don't you think?
oh, wait, there's a knife in the way! zomg!

and yes, even if he's left eye dominant, it's still retarded. when shooting around corners you'll switch shoulders.

The knife is almost sideways. Unless you're clumsier than Howard with Fallout, shouldering a rifle ain't going to be a problem.

i can get them wanting to add some western flavor to it, but those spikes are ridiculous.

Yes, a few polygons and a miniscule graphics detail is oh so horrible.

most lethal area of the back is nearly completely exposed (kidneys)

what's the most common way to defeat an enemy force? flanking. you'll note that he has no armor whatsoever from the side and even his front plate is retardedly narrow in the stomache area. please don't tell me his arms will protect his side, because if his arms are there while he's fighting, he's doing something wrong. besides, even normal pistol rounds blast through an arm, no problem.

and if you're going to make a try at protecting the groin, do it well. not some half-arsed attempt like this.

neck protection would be nice too, but that would be a bit picky.

overall, the level of detail, design and craftmanship would put this between combat armor and metal armor. torso-wise, i'd say metal armor protects the wearer better and when comparing with combat armor, well, there really is no contest...

Actually, the original combat armour was pure shit too. It didn't meet any of your requirements. It's protection of the abdomen was flimsy at best (actual plates were only covering the upper torso and shoulders), it didn't have any cover for the groin or legs, it was basically just as "retarded" as this partiular design.

This is all ignoring the fact that New California Rangers are not frontline infantry. They're special forces supposed to engage the enemy on their own terms, rather than go against mutants head on like Fallout 3 NPCs would.

Plus, lack of armour on the back could've been fair trade for lesser weight and better ventilation in, y'know, desert. High temperatures. And stuff.

 

[.Pixote.]

Big Sissy

Like many here I have to say I am not a fan of the concept illustration of the Ranger Armor. Aren’t the people of Fallout trying to survive in the wastelands - dangerous, hot, dirty, and frightening? Not some girlie Star Wars inspired fashion sissy. It’s so clean and neat, with a pretty white scarf to wipe the sweat from his hot neck, perfect shades, and strategically placed knife. Much of the original art style for Fallout was inspired directly from the characters in Mad Max 2, but this guy looks like he walked out from a post-apocalyptic Gucci fashion show.

 

[TheGM]

Re: Big Sissy

Like many here I have to say I am not a fan of the concept illustration of the Ranger Armor. Aren’t the people of Fallout trying to survive in the wastelands - dangerous, hot, dirty, and frightening? Not some girlie Star Wars inspired fashion sissy. It’s so clean and neat, with a pretty white scarf to wipe the sweat from his hot neck, perfect shades, and strategically placed knife. Much of the original art style for Fallout was inspired directly from the characters in Mad Max 2, but this guy looks like he walked out from a post-apocalyptic Gucci fashion show.

And that is why the NCR is awesome....they brought fashion back!

 

[Tagaziel]

Re: Big Sissy

Like many here I have to say I am not a fan of the concept illustration of the Ranger Armor. Aren’t the people of Fallout trying to survive in the wastelands - dangerous, hot, dirty, and frightening? Not some girlie Star Wars inspired fashion sissy. It’s so clean and neat, with a pretty white scarf to wipe the sweat from his hot neck, perfect shades, and strategically placed knife. Much of the original art style for Fallout was inspired directly from the characters in Mad Max 2, but this guy looks like he walked out from a post-apocalyptic Gucci fashion show.

You do realize this criticism also applies to Fallout 1 and 2's leather armor and combat armor too, right?

 

[Continuum]

Re: Big Sissy

Much of the original art style for Fallout was inspired directly from the characters in Mad Max 2

They're looking more like shiny super heroes from American comics rather than characters from Mad Max 2 to me. But maybe it's hoax caused by these damn few pixels on the screen.

 

[Arden]

That’s a nice suit crni vuk . But as you said, unless it is powered, it is completely useless in a fight. You couldn’t aim a rifle worth a damn in something as bulky as this one. That’s why those huge shoulderpads you often see in movies, games and such won’t work properly, Same thing with fully closed helmets and huge collars. You would need some kind of targeting assisting system like optical relay on a hud or lasers. And lasers work poorly over long ranges in strong light like a desert at day. Or don’t help at all at night, when you can’t see the target. So you need nightvision too. All of it requires power that comes from batteries, which limits the operational time in the field (and would be ridiculous in a PA-setting, where would you recharge the batteries?)….

A solution to a problem often creates new problems. I would go with practical clothes and some light armor until I could get my hands on some powerarmor.

 

[SuAside]

Though its not that far away from real life sadly ... as a friend told me once about his duty in the German Army they got some body armor which wasnt really giving you a good protection to the sides actualy almost no one. He said once someone would get you from the flank it would be really dangerous. But I guess they just dont give usual grunts the best armor available.

Until very recently, german soldiers were only issued flak jackets. Those are made to protect from shrapnel, not bullets. So any actual REAL body armor would be an improvement over that. Smile

neck protection would be nice too, but that would be a bit picky.

Haha, that would be a bit too picky?

Yes, that would be picky because I don't really expect games to cover people's necks & heads, it often gets in the way of having easy dialogue and animation etc. Smile

It's worth remembering that this is concept art for a post-apocalytpic game which features robots, supermutants and giant mutated chameleons. It's not a design for the US Army's latest body armour, so I can kind of forgive them their lack of verisimilitude.

You'll remember that the original Fallouts had none of these flaws for armor that was produced before the nuclear holocaust. The only questionable armor in the game was made post-apoc, and it's no friggin' doubt then that any armor is better than none in a post-apoc environment.

This armor is however overcomplicated and fairly advanced. It looks like something that was made before the war, or at least produced in facilities that were capable of near BoS level of tech production.

As such, one has certain expectations... Other than having to "look cool".

As for the design of the armour, it's post-apocalyptic. They probably have to make do with whatever armour they can get their hands on. Also, and I may have already mentioned this, but it's concept art.

I disagree, obviously. This armor does NOT look like armor they made or pieced together from "stuff they could get their hands on", therefore it is either pre-war or produced post-war in a highly industrialised setting.

*snip*

I concede to a lot you're saying, but even light military armor provides some degree of protection at the flanks of the torso, even if just a few layers of kevlar. Here, it's basically a friggin' T-shirt showing underneath.

As for the weight issue, the dude wearing it is shooting a "grenade machinegun" from the hip. Ye know, weight and recoil aint much of an issue. Wink

This is a body armor usualy in use with bomb squads and from what I have read it gives a very good protection for most situations

It is a misconception to think bomb squad armor would stand up to a rifle round. It most likely wouldn't.

It's primary purpose is to stop sharpnel and to lessen the effects of concussion. Rifle rounds are a wholely different ballgame.

Because having it hanging around freely is the best way to hold on to it in desert winds.

*sigh*

Not the point. it's too neat and dandy. Besides, actually tying it would be more secure & less complex...

The knife is almost sideways. Unless you're clumsier than Howard with Fallout, shouldering a rifle ain't going to be a problem.

Never actually shouldered and fired a rifle, have you? The knife would be in the way, no friggin' doubt about that.

Actually, the original combat armour was pure shit too. It didn't meet any of your requirements. It's protection of the abdomen was flimsy at best (actual plates were only covering the upper torso and shoulders), it didn't have any cover for the groin or legs, it was basically just as "retarded" as this partiular design.

Doesn't meet any of my requirements?
1) covers the back
2) covers the sides (and have bonus armor on the arms too btw)
3) doesn't protect the groin, but i didn't say it should. (i said if you try, then do it good, not half-arsed)
4) neck protection was optional

I don't quite see how this "doesn't meet any of my requirements". While true it has a somewhat stupid gap near the bellybutton, that could be explained with increased flexibility to prevent hampering agility too much.

Plus, lack of armour on the back could've been fair trade for lesser weight and better ventilation in, y'know, desert. High temperatures. And stuff.

There's no reason to assume that combat armor wouldn't do just as well...

Leaving out armor on the back near one of our most fragile areas is plain retarded, and not covering the flanks with at least a thin layer of kevlar or something similar is retarded. Plenty of ways to ventilate that area tbfh.

You do realize this criticism also applies to Fallout 1 and 2's leather armor and combat armor too, right?

Combat armor was made before the fall and hardly suffers from your objections.

Leather armor is basically an old american football armor style... Quite effective against blunt trauma and might stop some bladed weapons. Rolling Eyes

 

[Crni Vuk]

Though its not that far away from real life sadly ... as a friend told me once about his duty in the German Army they got some body armor which wasnt really giving you a good protection to the sides actualy almost no one. He said once someone would get you from the flank it would be really dangerous. But I guess they just dont give usual grunts the best armor available.

Until very recently, german soldiers were only issued flak jackets. Those are made to protect from shrapnel, not bullets. So any actual REAL body armor would be an improvement over that.

Dont forget the German military is nothing like the US one that consists mainly of professional soldiers, meaning people that voluntarly chose to be part of the military while we also still have in Germany a compulsory military service which means usualy they never see any combat and just receive basic training. Its not needed to give such people the best balistic vest I guess.

Units like the Kommando Spezialkräfte (Special Forces Command, KSK) or professional soldiers which see actual combat have in general better equipment. But its definetly true. We are behind the US. But from all european nations Germany has still the bigest tank force in action if I remember correctly (much smaller compared to the cold war time though).

I think it would be better to compare the European Union with the US.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

The knife is almost sideways. Unless you're clumsier than Howard with Fallout, shouldering a rifle ain't going to be a problem.

My problem with the knife is that the hilt is facing a direction that makes it extremely difficult to draw, it should be flipped 180 degrees.