TomJ
Still Mildly Glowing
And what evidence to you use to back this up? What the game shows? Which is nothing. Actual Abq which is larger than Vegas and would have more areas to fortify.
NCR vs Legion Opinion
- Thread starter mandala
- Start date
Still Mildly Glowing
And what evidence to you use to back this up? What the game shows? Which is nothing. Actual Abq which is larger than Vegas and would have more areas to fortify.
SpecialHands
First time out of the vault
Vegas itself didn't actually get bombed. House stopped that. The Mojave also has the relatively intact HELIOS 1, Sub stations and the Dam. Strategically Vegas is more valuable because some level of decent infrastructure remains. I don't know what became of Abq or Phoenix, only that Graham mentions that Phoenix is a Just place, and is metal and stone (assuming from that it's structurally in a similar state to Boston)
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Umm because New Vegas is unique in that it was barely hit by nukes unlike other areas? Exactly, making it harder to defend.
TomJ
Still Mildly Glowing
The infrastructure is most valuable part, but strategically is Vegas the best place? Potentially not, if the NCR lets decent commanders run things. Vegas would be right on the border with the NCR. Looking at Google Maps, there are other ways into Vegas than I 15. An army could come from a different direction and cut Vegas off from the rest of the Legion. Keeping your capital away from the border would seem like something smart to do just on the off chance the NCR gains the upper hand in the future.
No not necessarily. It takes more than infrastructure to defend a place. Vegas has a river at its back and it could be cut off. Flagstaff can't be because its deeper in Legion territory. Also, with the lack of technology in the post war world, it would make more sense to keep your administration closer to your center just to make things easier to manage.
Rebuilding any city within Legion territory wouldn't be an issue. The Legion doesn't put value into things obtained easily, so having a harder time building a capital would be looked at more favorably than just having a preserved city. And they have an army of slaves to do it, so it's not like the legionnaires care. I'm still of the position that using Vegas as a capital is more for show than it is for strategy. If it would make such a great capitol, then the NCR would have the same plan, which they don't. Both sides have existing capitals. Vegas might be good after the NCR would be defeated, which wouldn't happen, but a capital right on the border doesn't sound like a strategically wise decision when you can exploit resources without having to put all of your admin right there.
SpecialHands
First time out of the vault
Yeah it's probably for show, although the working electric, clean water supply, financial wealth and, as we stated earlier infrastructure were probably also key factors in the choice.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
The bigger the place is, the more area to defend and the more thinly spread forces are. If you've noticed, the Legion doesn't rely on supply lines the way the NCR do. They're able to make attacks across vast spaces of land in NCR territory beyond battle lines, supported only by raiding and foraging.
TomJ
Still Mildly Glowing
But could pillaging be a solution to a siege? Especially if they're kept to just Freeside and Westside? I know they can grow food, but could they sustain themselves for more than a few weeks.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Yes, there are farms right next to Vegas. The Legion could defend those easily by creating palisades and walls.
TomJ
Still Mildly Glowing
I know that, but is it enough to feed an army and populace? Under a protracted siege its unlikely. The NCR would only need to find a way to blow them up. Westside feeds itself and maybe some of Outer Vegas and the NCR Farms supplement the NCR army. As noted before, the Legion can't survive a war of attrition. A siege would be that.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
It seems to be, trading is basically non existent from what we've seen. But keep in mind that the Legion is extraordinarily good at foraging in the wild, meaning that a support army arriving from their territories can survive without supply lines and move really fast (we've seen this before) while the NCR has to move slowly and ponderously.
SpecialHands
First time out of the vault
I think Tom has a good point about a war of attrition, although I do not think it'll be enough to stop the legion it'd certainly put them in a very uncomfortable place.
Although equally, maybe more so, the NCR cannot take many hits to their supply lines or they'll lose more troops than they can afford. They rely heavily on logistics, ammunition, food rations etc. Legion are, as Dr Fallout said, skilled in bushcraft and procuring necessities on the move and in enemy territory.
Although equally, maybe more so, the NCR cannot take many hits to their supply lines or they'll lose more troops than they can afford. They rely heavily on logistics, ammunition, food rations etc. Legion are, as Dr Fallout said, skilled in bushcraft and procuring necessities on the move and in enemy territory.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
If the NCR face the Legion in a straight on battle they win, as seen in the First Battle of Hoover Damn. But on the other hand, only the Legion can infiltrate through enemy territory, way past any real supply lines, right next to a NCR position and utterly destroy a town.
Also, like the Soviets (no, I'm not giving up) they have a surprisingly good spy system for a country that seems primitive. In comparison, the NCR has no real spies in Legion territory.
SpecialHands
First time out of the vault
I was actually thinking about making the comparison of Legion being like Russia and NCR like Germany in Stalingrad if we were going to follow the siege notion. NCR are far better equipped, but it doesn't matter if they're not getting resupplied regularly and they really need to hold decent territory for that. At the start of the siege of Stalingrad nobody expected a vastly under armed and weakened Russia would win, but the Blitzkrieg machine needed constant supplies and decent leadership and it had neither, a lot like how the NCR would end up trying to take on the Legion in a siege of Vegas.
Throatpunch
Banned
Which the NCR could easily blow up with missiles and artillery, or even bomb with vertibirds.
NCR needn't invade the Legion territory, it would be too much of a waste of resources, money and manpower, sort of like an American invasion of Japan in WW2. All they need to do is activate the nukes in the divide and point them at Arizona.
Moving on to the subject of this thread, I'm going to talk about my opinions on NCR vs Legion. I personally side with NCR:
Life under NCR is much better than under the Legion, with huge amounts of the population being slaves, and women misogynistically being viewed as breeding tools. And there is zero doubt that women aren't allowed to be traders. (Rose Sharon Cassidy mentions this last bit). They don't encourage science or independent critical thinking. You're only allowed to use technologies in the way that your god, Caesar, prescribes.
There is little to no sexist or racist behaviour in the NCR, most likely due to the community's origins in Vault 15. The republic has also shown little discrimination against ghouls and mutants.
Under NCR rule the Mojave would experience safety and security under the rule of law, the Military Police has a strong presence in all NCR territories, and there is a civilian police force in core areas. Openly carrying arms, prostitution, gambling, and slavery are not permitted within NCR city limits (in specific states, not all of them).
The NCR has high living standards for its citizens, and many can find employment as farmers, travelling merchants or soldiers.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
True, true but keep in mind that the Legion won't stop and weaken if they lose their capital. Like the Soviets, they will keep on fighting albeit less organized. Also, the idea of the NCR using the nukes from the Divide is too big of an assumption to be plausible. Keep in mind that the area is a hell hole of rad storms and tunellers, leaving the inexperienced NCR to be massacred. There's also the fact that they cannot launch the nukes or aren't interested in the area in the first place leaving it too much of an expectation.
You know, I'll just message why so much of that is incorrect or wrong.
SpecialHands
First time out of the vault
I can't see a nation that wants to rebuild the old world using nukes.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Exactly, and it would just ruin Vegas as well.
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
Also weren't the nukes a closely kept secret? Why would the NCR know about them? They wouldn't even know how to use them since you need the secret codes which the Think Tank gave to Ulysses.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Exactly, so they wouldn't be able to use them.
Throatpunch
Banned
For the NCR to even consider assaulting Legion territory, they would have to have won in the Mojave, which means they would have had the courier on their side.
When the courier enters the divide, he would choose to fire the nukes at Arizona due to his loyalty to NCR.