New Vegas is way too complex

[EnglishMuffin]

So the author is stupid. Does he want a medal or something? The greatest achievement of his life is figuring out how to change active quests?

 

[PainlessDocM]

I wonder how long it would take him to figure out how to refuel the car.

 

[Anarchosyn]

The fact he mistakenly believes 'Manifest Destiny' means "American destiny engineering" doesn't help his argumentation, either.

Quick, someone e-mail this to Roshambo as a Christmas gift or something.

Umm.. that is essentially what Manifest Destiny meant.. that is, unless you're a Eurocentric git that thinks God was really on their side.

 

[Blackfriar]

I'm sad...

Because clearly this reviewer is retarded and doesn't even know it...

Does he not understand even the basics of combat?

When you're melee, you have to close with your target. Especially if it's ranged because you're otherwise just a living target. So OF COURSE melee characters rush up. It's that or die.

When you're ranged, you'd rather not close. Though, when ranged, the closer you are (to a point), the easier it is to hit a target... So there is this whole "dance" thing...

But even worse, he didn't even notice things. Obvious things. Things that are covered in the manual -- like NOTES. Things that are common in all CPRGs.

Anyway, I could rant on but it's pointless. I think the game has some bug issues I wish it wouldn't have shipped with, but it's been fine otherwise.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Oh, and nowhere in the review have I found him complaining new vegas was too complex...

He doesn't actually complain but he seems to find NV incredibly complex which isn't really the case.

 

[Alphadrop]

Absolutely. I hope he tries Fallout 2 or, God forbid, Fallout 1. He might just kill himself.

 

[Grayswandir]

He doesn't actually complain but he seems to find NV incredibly complex which isn't really the case.

Great, so nma is dealing with assomption of what the reviewer seems to think now?
Not against you, i think the title of the news is unfair.
Bitching about an interface made by bethesda for console users ain't finding anything complex in my book. I hate this fucking pipboy too. No shortcuts, no real inventory, fragmented info all over the place.... This Pipboy 3000 sucks compared to the 2000 model. It's not too complex, it's badly designed, and not designed for PC.
Saying that he wasn't at first very confortable with the grey morality of the fallout serie and that he was bored by the plot of fallout 3 ain't nothing to do with finding NV complex.
The combats? They are how he describes it. Moonwalk shooting and dance of the knife. I can't play melee, cause I never can hit my oponent, unless he is kind enought to always make the same movement or trow himself at my blade. Again, bitching about the engine.

Now there is this point at the end, where he reflect on what he did in the game, how combat is just minor thing, the good choice having a cruel price, how deep the game is, action having consequences, with a little dramatical emphasis, am terrified bla bla bla...
Is this there that the author seems to find NV complex?
Maybe yes. Too complex? Hell no. Complex in the sense of having depth, and he clearly stated in his conclusion, that he loved it.
Is it really that complex to understand that this review is clearly favorable to New Vegas?

Now I totally disagree with his "historical narrativ" thing, I think it's pure bullshit, (probably cause i am Eurocentric git ect ) and have nothing to do with what fallout is, but that's an another story.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

He doesn't actually complain but he seems to find NV incredibly complex which isn't really the case.

Great, so nma is dealing with assomption of what the reviewer seems to think now?

The topic title refers to the remarks regrding the gameplay mechanics and interface.

"The gameplay system is a disjunctive network of overlapping lists, stats, statuses, items, quest information, character notes, curiosities, and upgrades. It's nearly inscrutable in the beginning[...]"

"In the early hours I got a leftover journal from a character and searched in vain through my Items menu hoping to read it. It was nowhere to be found in the sub-categories of Apparel, Weapons, Aid, or Miscellaneous. Only 20 hours later did I realize that these non-essential character flourishes were stored in the Data section under the Notes sub-category. "

"The numbers get washed down a long, slippery tube of modifiers that include your posture, movement, character effects, buffs, weapon condition, and suitability of weapon type to your character's physical traits. But, which of these factors is influencing what in any given shot or encounter is a left entirely to inference. "

Now, I agree that the interface isn't great but seriously? Nearly inscrutable? Not noticing a sub-category called Notes? Self describing stats that are completely left to inference?

 

[Briosafreak]

Seriously? Not know how to change active quests?

In any case, he could have read the manual. What's so difficult in that? It's like 20 pages at most, A5 format, with plenty of pictures.

You've nailed the problem with 90% of the New vegas reviews. People being dumfounded by small things that actually are on the manual.

 

[Grayswandir]

There are items and quest items sometimes called notes that goes in the item/misc, and then there are items that goes in a totally non item related category called data/misc, where there are some notes, and also some quest related info. Yeah, its kinda confusing, they could at least have named the category differently. There probably is some good reason why some items must go one way, and some the other, but I certainly never bothered to think about it.

Nearly inscrutable? Not noticing a sub-category called Notes? Self describing stats that are completely left to inference?

Sure, for someone that doesn't breath SPECIAL everyday for the last 10 year, it can be hard to grasp. In the beginning. No reason to flame over that, we have history with the fallout system, that other people don't necessarily have.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Nearly inscrutable? Not noticing a sub-category called Notes? Self describing stats that are completely left to inference?

Sure, for someone that doesn't breath SPECIAL everyday for the last 10 year, it can be hard to grasp. In the beginning. No reason to flame over that, we have history with the fallout system, that other people don't necessarily have.

Except that I didn't find FO1 difficult to grasp ten years ago even though it was my first RPG ever (and I didn't even read the manual).

Of course with experience comes better understanding of everything but what is "inscrutable" in the system? Even if you don't find the name of stats and skills self explanatory there's an explanation for every stat and skill in-game AND the people in Goodspring act as a tutorial.

 

[Grayswandir]

pt that I didn't find FO1 difficult to grasp ten years ago even though it was my first RPG ever (and I didn't even read the manual).

Then you are a great man, many people screwed up their first character.

Even if you don't find the name of stats and skills self explanatory there's an explanation for every stat and skill in-game AND the people in Goodspring act as a tutorial.

Agility influence the gun, perception influence the energy weapon, the explosive, but also lockpick. Strenght influence melee weapon, but not unarmed (or the other way around), intelligence influence the number of the skill points, all the secondary statistic... All that sort of thing that are a bit hard to grasp at first view. And no they aren't specifically self explanatory, I don't remember if there is a tutorial in goodspring about that.
The guy is a reviewer, his job is to inform people what they can expect. Telling them you can enter in Fallout like in a new Reno's virgin would be a lie.

 

[Brother None]

Bah! this guy is a Sophist, his reasoning isnt right, he just wants to impress with pretentious speech.

This is likely the biggest problem. He combines poor spelling and bad writing with incomplete understanding of philosophical ideas.

Here's his bit on Civ 5
What it lacks is the emotional purpose and irresolvable conflict that cinema, like every emotionally-oriented form that preceded it, leave lingering in my brain. Civ V is the plot of the Godfather, not the dark final moment where Diane Keaton stands in the door of Michael's office and sees him, surrounded by articulate cretins, looking at her like a stranger. It's the atmospheric science behind the tornado that destroys the town of Xenia, not the gorging anarchy of Bunny Boy kissing Chloe Sevigny in an above-ground pool in the overcast ruins. It's a dictionary to interpret the invented foreign tongue in The Silence rather than an encapsulation of the alien mystery of a boy in a cavernous hotel with no way to understand the terrifying artefacts that surround him.

It's a game without cinema, a logical skeleton without blood and flesh to give it human shape or empathy. It's history as a series of straight lines whose rate of ascension can be manipulated, but it leaves out the most interesting parts of irrationality and human failing. It's more a game and less a video game, one that could have existed as easily 1000 years ago as today. That can't be said of cinema, and the degree to which it resists enhancing itself with cinema's emotional agency reveals how aging and purposeless the mechanical system has become. Consider it a cultural defeat.

He reads like a failed philosophy or English major who doesn't fully understand anything he's writing about but tries to impress by flounting his knowledge anyway. This is some of the worst game journalism writing I have ever seen and that's saying something.

Sure, for someone that doesn't breath SPECIAL everyday for the last 10 year, it can be hard to grasp. In the beginning. No reason to flame over that, we have history with the fallout system, that other people don't necessarily have.

Say what? Fallout 3 approached everything anew and statistically and mechanically had little relation to the SPECIAL system of old. It complete tweaked the relative importance of skills versus stats and the way combat worked. It didn't take me long to figure out.

Is the interface shitty? Yes, and a journalist should feel free to exposit on that. Is the opinion of a journalist who takes 20 hours to figure out where notes are and never thinks to pick up the manual worth anything? No, it's worth less than anything. I would consider his whining inappropriate for a gamer, if you don't bother to read the manual then why the are you complaining, but for someone who writes on games? That's ridiculous.

I'm not about to apologize for the newspost's title because this is so much of what's wrong with the gaming industry. Molyneux is lauded for his retarded one-button combat because even a hint of complexity brings out whining idiots who can't be bothered to do a tutorial level. Dragon Age 2 is being dumbed down because the BioWare dudes feel there's "too many stats and shit" to open up Dragon Age: Origins. This is, in fact, why we can't have nice, deep games anymore. Because the idiots are crying loudest. It's frustrating as all hell.

I don't remember if there is a tutorial in goodspring about that.

What? A list of skills they influence is right there in the stats-building machine in the Doc's office. It says so, right there, in the stat's description. Are you kidding me? You are seriously going to complain because you're too lazy to even read a stat's description?

The guy is a reviewer, his job is to inform people what they can expect. Telling them you can enter in Fallout like in a new Reno's virgin would be a lie.

Oh, true, he's fairly warning people who are as lazy and idiotic as him. Let's hope it's the minority, still.

 

[Grayswandir]

I am not going to comment on the philosophical side, i already said what I thought about it.

I'm not about to apologize for the newspost's title because this is so much of what's wrong with the gaming industry. Molyneux is lauded for his retarded one-button combat because even a hint of complexity brings out whining idiots who can't be bothered to do a tutorial level. Dragon Age 2 is being dumbed down because the BioWare dudes feel there's "too many stats and shit" to open up Dragon Age: Origins. This is, in fact, why we can't have nice, deep games anymore. Because the idiots are crying loudest. It's frustrating as all hell.

Yeah! You're right!
Except the author doesn't actually complain about the stat system! Nor ask for it to be dumbed down! Just say it takes time to adapt, so your point have nothing to do with the fact the title is wrong.

Wana know another thing that's wrong? In a thread, someone post a link to a review, saying, hey, there is this review around, nothing much to say though. People start to bitch about it, so hey now it's newsworthy! Let's put a nice title, so people can bitch about it without even having to bother to actually read the review!
And now, it is guess what? so much of what's wrong with the gaming industry!

What? A list of skills they influence is right there in the stats-building machine in the Doc's office. It says so, right there, in the stat's description. Are you kidding me? You are seriously going to complain because you're too lazy to even read a stat's description?

The character creation? That's your tutorial about understanding how the game works? Please!It last what, 5 minutes? You don't even know at this time which stats are going to be really important or not!


But hey, even then, if the guy aiming his review at people that don't read the manual, so what? Do you think everyone here did learn it before playing? Seriously!

 

[Brother None]

Except the author doesn't actually complain about the stat system!

He doesn't complain about the system being convoluted? Did you read it?

The dude clearly doesn't play RPGs. Yet in his ignorance he complains about how long it takes to grasp. That is, very clearly, a bad thing, because a reviewer should not focus on his personal lack of knowledge to the detriment of "the average's gamer's experience". In fact, a reviewer should be careful of talking much about personal experiences overall.

People start to bitch about it, so hey now it's newsworthy!

That's presumptive. The fact is that I hadn't logged in in a while, saw this thing posted on GameBanshee, then logging in on NMA found someone had posted on it here, so I split it into a newspost. Actually, until I split it, most replies weren't actually bitchy.

Let's put a nice title, so people can bitch about it without even having to bother to actually read the review!

Whether or not people opt to read it is not my concern. The title and description are to highlight why I chose to post it separately.

You're sure seeing a lot of nefarious motivations here. Is there any reason you're taking it so personally?

The character creation? That's your tutorial about understanding how the game works?

No, but you seemed to state it's confusing how stats tie to skills. It states how this works outright in character creation. Even if this is your first RPG, I'm not seeing how this can be confusing. And that's the problem. Fallout 3/New Vegas are very simple, uncomplex RPGs that make it very obvious how they work. Yet we still have professionals complaining about how long it takes to get these very simple mechanics. What's that telling publishers about the kind of games they should make? As an RPG fan, this is really frustrating.

But hey, even then, if the guy aiming his review at people that don't read the manual, so what? Do you think everyone here did learn it before playing? Seriously!

Actually I assume not. I do actually assume that when someone can't find something on the interface they see the purpose of opening the manual. You make that sound like some kind of brilliant revelation.

 

[Faceless Stranger]

I wonder how long it would take him to figure out how to refuel the car.

Well done sir. He'd probably start an ethical debate on why the car must be refueled.

 

[fedaykin]

Tic Tac Toe. A review.

The gameplay system is a disjunctive network of lines, squares, Os and Xs. It's nearly inscrutable in the beginning but after 10-20 hours the most obscure corners of the system will be at least functional, if not entirely clear. It took me over 50 hours to reach my ending and I managed to not put a singe X in a horizontal, vertical or diagonal line.
...


But jokes aside, it would be interesting to know whether he's a console gamer or doesn't normally play video games at all. It almost seems like he'd want a game that pretty much plays itself while he watches.

 

[Little Robot]

But jokes aside, it would be interesting to know whether he's a console gamer or doesn't normally play video games at all. It almost seems like he'd want a game that pretty much plays itself while he watches.

AKA, a movie. Which is what he seems to be comparing all the games to anyway. I would guess that he's a self-proclaimed "film buff" if I had to take a shot.

 

[mobucks]

Really, the game is too complex.

By today's standards, I should just pop in the disk and the game beats itself.

I get an achievement/trophy for that of course!

 

[Crni Vuk]

I agree with everything BN wrote. Some of those RPG reviewers (which call them self professionals) should try a few pretty "old" RPGs and tell me anything about complexity in Fallout 3. You know I remember a time when a game like Baldurs Gate 1 or 2 was seen as rather "mediocre" when it comes to the use in skills. Now try explaining one of those why your companions dont get up again after they got killed, tourned to stone, or god fobids ! Your character has been cursed but you decided to run without a cleric in battle. And there are many many RPG players (old school mind you ...) which think Baldurs Gate was just standart or "easy" to beat once you got the system (well they are true, but I personaly think when you have to get familiar with a system the RPG achieved something, if its a good system that is and I always loved the Dnd setting).

I see where BN is coming from. I see many nich games even dissapearing. Drakensang was not great but it was not bad either I liked both Drakensang 1 and 2. But still ... because someone thought its not "what the market" wants Drakensang 3 (for the case it will ever see the light) completely removed from the Darkeye Pnp rules. Guess why ? To complex ... yeah ...

sheesh ... when will see deep and rich RPGs again...