New Vegas writers were told to dial back the Enclave

[SquidWard]

Come to think of it, Radscorpions are a particularly egregious one.

Like ok, Supermutants and Brotherhood I can kinda understand thinking "We gotta move these over" since they're iconic.

But with Radscorpions It's like, we're in an entirely new environment that should have it's own wildlife and you moved desert scorpions over there? Like it shows such an utter lack of ambition towards portraying a different part of the world.

And Deathclaws too. I guess they ride the line between iconic and a Western thing. I think the idea of something like the Gatorclaw would work well in a game set in Florida, Louisiana, or Georgie type area. A similar mutated creature from a similar type of animal(s) sounds fine. I just dislike having Deathclaws everywhere as well despite how iconic they are. At least Super Mutants only ties to the West Coast are FEV and that's where we saw them initially. I'd even be able to excuse a different strain of FEV causing something similiar somewhere else one time. But it's been done three times now.

But yeah, Radscorpions are really a puzzling choice to bring over. I get some of the others whether I like it or not, like you mentioned, it makes sense they wanted to reuse BoS and Super Mutants, but I don't like it. Radscorpions aren't nearly as iconic. They're just a threatening creature you run into at low levels.

He understands the Super Mutants...

 

[Resardiv]

They do absolutely nothing too, apparently. There's no plot. They're basically just examining files.

It's not real DLC.

It's all there just to justify having Enclave themed settlement merch.

The usual Bethesda content

 

[CT Phipps]

Wait a minute. I interpreted this tweet in the complete opposite way that everyone else did apparently. To me, Chris is saying that the inclusion of the Enclave, with the exception of the Remnants, was expressly forbidden by the designers of NV, despite the fact that Todd wanted them in the game because he had a huge hard-on for them. I interpret it as the project designer fighting hard to NOT feature them in any capacity other than as the Remnants, fighting against Todd’s desires specifically. I now see how it can be interpreted differently, but am I the only one who read it like this?.

It's the "despite his hard on for them" that persuades me.

Plus Avellone's later comments make the context clear.

 

[Gizmojunk]

So... Bottlecaps were backed by the Hub's water merchants. Bottlecaps in DC couldn't have been. The Hub is in the middle of nowhere; DC was the nation's capitol. DC would have had access to coins; they could have used US dollars, foreign coins, bus tokens—even arcade tokens. They used crimped/serrated tin punch-out as money because why? No in game reasoning, it's because Bethesda paid for the IP content and was going to use it irrespective of in-world common sense. It's the same reason they used the Enclave, BOS, and Supermutants. Lazy brand recognition.

When Bitcoin appeared to the world it was near valueless; people would give it away if you asked for it. Eventually it got hoarded, and eventually became worth having, and became accepted for transactions.

[Logically] the same would eventually have happened if the society in Fallout's DC had adopted bus tokens as accepted money.

 

[CT Phipps]

So... Bottlecaps were backed by the Hub's water merchants. Bottlecaps in DC couldn't have been. The Hub is in the middle of nowhere; DC was the nation's capitol. DC would have had access to coins; they could have used US dollars, foreign coins, bus tokens—even arcade tokens. They used crimped/serrated tin punch-out as money because why? No in game reasoning, it's because Bethesda paid for the IP content and was going to use it irrespective of in-world common sense. It's the same reason they used the Enclave, BOS, and Supermutants. Lazy brand recognition.

It was obviously done just for reintroducing the concept to audiences. In my Fallout pen and paper RPG campaign, I say they're just generally used because people value aluminum to repair Pre-War technology and it just sort of caught on.

Mind you, my games never go past 30 years after the apocalypse.

 

[Gizmojunk]

One of the differences to consider is the availability of bottling crimps in the center of a desert, as opposed to access in the center of the nation's capitol city. It would be easy to make bottle caps in a major city. If the caps were accepted for trade, people would make their own counterfeit caps; certainly some would sell counterfeit caps.

Caps for any use other than beverage storing or craft art would be melted, not stored as cut metal.

 

[CT Phipps]

One of the differences to consider is the availability of bottling crimps in the center of a desert, as opposed to access in the center of the nation's capitol city. It would be easy to make bottle caps in a major city. If the caps were accepted for trade, people would make their own counterfeit caps; certainly some would sell counterfeit caps.

I mean depends on if the factories are still functional and even then you'd need the metal to work them. No supply lines anymore.

Caps for any use other than beverage storing or craft art would be melted, not stored as cut metal.

I assume that's what they would be when not being used as a medium of exchange. Mind you, in any realistic society, they'd have been strip mining everything left and right so the world would have been bare of old ruins by five years afterward.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

So... Bottlecaps were backed by the Hub's water merchants. Bottlecaps in DC couldn't have been. The Hub is in the middle of nowhere; DC was the nation's capitol. DC would have had access to coins; they could have used US dollars, foreign coins, bus tokens—even arcade tokens. They used crimped/serrated tin punch-out as money because why? No in game reasoning, it's because Bethesda paid for the IP content and was going to use it irrespective of in-world common sense. It's the same reason they used the Enclave, BOS, and Supermutants. Lazy brand recognition.

When Bitcoin appeared to the world it was near valueless; people would give it away if you asked for it. Eventually it got hoarded, and eventually became worth having, and became accepted for transactions.

[Logically] the same would eventually have happened if the society in Fallout's DC had adopted bus tokens as accepted money.

Bethesda (or perhaps Bethesda Austin) did actually add a retroactive explanation that we can infer: In Fallout 76, Nuka Cola set up some promotional programme whereby bottle caps could be exchanged for goods in-kind through an automatic kiosk. The thinking goes that enough wastelanders used this after the War and hoarded bottlecaps such that they became an accepted medium of exchange, which then filtered down to the rest of the East Coast.

Obviously it's very contrived, and the fact is in Fallout 3 they were included for no other reason than having been the setting's most iconic currency.

In my Fallout pen and paper RPG campaign, I say they're just generally used because people value aluminum to repair Pre-War technology and it just sort of caught on.

Mind you, my games never go past 30 years after the apocalypse.

a 30 year time frame arguably makes it even less justifiable, assuming your campaigns are set in diverse environs. Something like that being universally agreed on as an arbitrary (if not capricious) unit of exchange would need time to diffuse. though of course it's not really a big deal, I understand it's easier to just have one standard currency for DM purposes.

One of the differences to consider is the availability of bottling crimps in the center of a desert, as opposed to access in the center of the nation's capitol city. It would be easy to make bottle caps in a major city.

Well the Hub does still trade with Los Angeles pretty extensively, and there would be plenty of bottling plants there too.

To headcanon a bit: Maybe that's one of the main reasons the Hub moved off a cap standard - Once things started to get more civilized and salvaging in the Boneyard kicked into full gear, people realized there were bottle cap plants. Salvaging companies focused all of their efforts on finding Old World bottling plants and get them up-and-running instead of doing more useful salvaging work, and caused an inflation crisis. The Hub used different methods to control the flow of bottle caps for a time, but ultimately settled for backing up factions in the state of Shady who advocated for moving NCR to a unitary, government-run gold backed currency. And thus things would remain until the Brotherhood completely owned NCR's bullion reserves Goldfinger-style.

I mean depends on if the factories are still functional and even then you'd need the metal to work them. No supply lines anymore.

Just finding aluminum is the easy part, it would take a century of population growth and constant use to exhaust the pre-War aluminum supplied. It's already refined and everything, you just have to melt it and re-cast it.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Home made crimps are common, some fit in a shirt pocket; if it was the equivalent of printing money, their use would be wide spread.

There was this guy known for hand inking $50 bills, because he could. The point is that there is no in-world justification for the poor choice to use caps as currency. They simply wanted to show off that their game used bottle caps too—"see? Our game is a Fallout game too!".

The thinking goes that enough wastelanders used this after the War and hoarded bottlecaps such that they became an accepted medium of exchange, which then filtered down to the rest of the East Coast.

Except that it was local to the range of the water merchants; otherwise they were useless.

 

[CT Phipps]

a 30 year time frame arguably makes it even less justifiable, assuming your campaigns are set in diverse environs. Something like that being universally agreed on as an arbitrary (if not capricious) unit of exchange would need time to diffuse. though of course it's not really a big deal, I understand it's easier to just have one standard currency for DM purposes.

It doesn't have to be universal, it just has to be in the places the games go.

Mostly between cultures you'll have barter and local currencies.

I.e. this is the New Vegas model.

Just finding aluminum is the easy part, it would take a century of population growth and constant use to exhaust the pre-War aluminum supplied. It's already refined and everything, you just have to melt it and re-cast it.

That's kind of the point. If it was exhausted, it wouldn't make much of a medium of exchange in addition to actually useful.

 

[Gizmojunk]

The Washington monument has a small platinum ball on top of it, it's platinum because at the time aluminum was too expensive.

_____

Bottlecaps are usually steel or aluminum; that can be found anywhere in a city.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Except that it was local to the range of the water merchants; otherwise they were useless.

In the Fallout 76 retroactive history, bottle caps arose as the currency by coincidence, via an entirely different (entirely contrived) mechanism. The presence or absence of the water merchants doesn't carry any water (heh) for this part of the world.

It doesn't have to be universal, it just has to be in the places the games go.

Mostly between cultures you'll have barter and local currencies.

I.e. this is the New Vegas model.

Fair play

 

[Gizmojunk]

In the Fallout 76 retroactive history...

It's an unfair argument killer, but I have always ignored and discredited any Bethesda addition to the lore whatsoever.

But even so, their retro-fiction is still a transparent means to an end; they require bottle-cap money solely because Fallout had it, not for any other reason.
They include it as a national phenomenon rather than an isolated quirk of the regional South West. It doesn't have to make any sense, it just has to identify with the IP brand.

 

[CT Phipps]

It's an unfair argument killer, but I have always ignored and discredited any Bethesda addition to the lore whatsoever.

But even so, their retro-fiction is still a transparent means to an end; they require bottle-cap money solely because Fallout had it, not for any other reason.
They include it as a national phenomenon rather than an isolated quirk of the regional South West. It doesn't have to make any sense, it just has to identify with the IP brand.

Mind you, "I hate it and its gross and it doesn't count" doesn't really contribute much, does it?

 

[Gizmojunk]

Is that personal opinion?

The problem is that from the outset Bethesda has diminished the Fallout NPC personalities, dignity, and pragmatism. Under Bethesda they are all basically nuts; nothing at all like Aradesh, Killian, Vree, Butch, Maxon, or even Harold——especially Harold. It's a disservice to the IP and the players. It's endemic with them. Everything conforms to the erroneous PA theme, and so everyone exists in perpetual squalor, and does nothing about it—for two hundred years.

Consider the BOS. They are a paramilitary group of self styled knights, yet the Citadel in FO3 is filthy, when we all know that the first job of the initiates would have been to scour every inch of the grounds with mops and scrubbers—day one. They would never have tolerated the filth on display in Bethesda's presentation of the BOS headquarters.

 

[Norzan]

Consider the BOS. They are a paramilitary group of self styled knights, yet the Citadel in FO3 is filthy, when we all know that the first job of the initiates would have been to scour every inch of the grounds with mops and scrubbers—day one. They would never have tolerated the filth on display in Bethesda's presentation of the BOS headquarters.

Honestly never thought about it. In Fallout 1 BoS base looks pristine and clean, in Fallout 3 it looks absolutely gross. Shit, the bunker in New Vegas is actually clean too, tells you who actually cares for those details.

 

[CT Phipps]

Honestly never thought about it. In Fallout 1 BoS base looks pristine and clean, in Fallout 3 it looks absolutely gross. Shit, the bunker in New Vegas is actually clean too, tells you who actually cares for those details.

I mean one is a ruin they're inhabiting because they're under siege by the Super Mutants and gradually losing a war of extermination.

You should look at Poisedon Solar Energy farm for how the Brotherhood of Steel functions under a siege.

 

[Gizmojunk]

They are living in it, and they are casually doing push-ups in the yard. They are having officer meetings in rooms with trash on the floor, and doorways that are rotted or torn in half on the hinge. No.

Bethesda designed these spaces, and were clearly okay with them. They are more concerned that the setting depict the theme... as in theme park, yes this is part of that.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

I mean one is a ruin they're inhabiting because they're under siege by the Super Mutants and gradually losing a war of extermination.

You should look at Poisedon Solar Energy farm for how the Brotherhood of Steel functions under a siege.

They've occupied the Citadel for almost 20 years, man. They're not under a literal siege, they're fighting a protracted war. And they have a bunch of recruits. Realistically they can't be studying or shooting targets all day. It would be fine if parts of the Pentagon were disused and still in disrepair, it's a big place that maybe the Brotherhood couldn't fill up with active inhabitation, but the whole place being filled with pre-War trash or rubble? It's just ridiculous.

And it's not like we see HELIOS-One while it was occupied, we see it following a gigantic battle and 2 years of poor management by an overstretched and incompetent NCR.

 

[Norzan]

I mean one is a ruin they're inhabiting because they're under siege by the Super Mutants and gradually losing a war of extermination.

They've occupied the Citadel for almost 20 years, man.

Absolutely hilarious, 20 year long siege where apparently they don't have time to do some basic cleanup. Bethesda's writing, i swear.