NFL 2009

[Sander]

And how does that get construed to mean no one gets raises ever?

Raises are re-negotiations. What, you think people re-negotiate for less money?

You still haven't answered if you think teams should re-negotiate when players are in a slump. Because if I'm a stakeholder (season ticket holder, advertiser, corporate sponsor) in the Panthers or the Bears, and my costs went up this year, I want a rebate, and I want it to come out of Cutler and Delhomme's paychecks.

That depends on the player and the team. Does the team think the player can get out of the slump and be worth the money they're asking? That's just a business decision.

Also are you saying you'd pay Deion Branch Reggie Wayne money?

Seriously? You stilll *still* don't know the difference between a discussion of a policy and a specific instance of implementation of that policy? Really? Are you really, really that stupid?

I said consideration only if they make the playoffs, which I don't think they will.

Stop dodging the question. Do you think Vince Young is more important for the Titans than Chris Johnson, yes or no?

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Raises are re-negotiations. What, you think people re-negotiate for less money?

Umm, actually they do all the time, to make cap room for a better supporting cast. To say nothing of the guys with their careers winding down who have to accept less.

Seriously? You stilll *still* don't know the difference between a discussion of a policy and a specific instance of implementation of that policy? Really? Are you really, really that stupid?

I guess I am, because I took for granted that we were talking about the real world with real examples and not some hypothetical never-never land bullshit that cannot be held up against real world examples. Wankery my man!

Stop dodging the question. Do you think Vince Young is more important for the Titans than Chris Johnson, yes or no?

There is no answer to this question counselor, it's week 13. Right now now neither of them deserve it.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

jesus christ. is this thread enough grounds to get the two of you cunts banned?

 

[Sander]

jesus christ. is this thread enough grounds to get the two of you cunts banned?

No.

Umm, actually they do all the time, to make cap room for a better supporting cast. To say nothing of the guys with their careers winding down who have to accept less.

So it's okay when the team wants to change the contract to their advantage, but it isn't when the players want to do that?

I guess I am, because I took for granted that we were talking about the real world with real examples and not some hypothetical never-never land bullshit that cannot be held up against real world examples. Wankery my man!

I'm not talking about a discussion divorced from reality, I'm talking about you citing cases where it turned out to be a good thing to not re-negotiate as proof that in all cases this is a good thing. That is nonsense.

Are you really going to contend that if, say, Tom Brady or Wes Welker wants more money it's a better idea to let them go than it is to give them more money?

There is no answer to this question counselor, it's week 13. Right now now neither of them deserve it.

I'm not asking you if either of them deserves MVP now. I'm asking you which one of those players you think is more important to their team. That's it.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Stop dodging the question. Do you think Vince Young is more important for the Titans than Chris Johnson, yes or no?

There is no answer to this question counselor, it's week 13. Right now now neither of them deserve it.

Even with CJ4.24 playing, and playing well, the Titans lost every game until VY started playing. Since VY returned they haven't lost. If they beat Indy this weekend VY deserves mention. MVP is not a "best player" award or a "biggest stats" award, it's a "most valuable to the team" award. No team in history has started out 0-6 and then won the next six games in a row.

BTW, Chris Johnson has three TD runs of over 85 yards this season. No other RB in history has more than three in his entire career.

Still, it always seems like he's not really doing all that much special - his main asset for the Vikings seems to be not turning the ball over. I'm probably underestimating how easy it is to go through your reads and consistently hit receivers, even if it is for short gains, but I do wonder how easily other QBs could repeat this.

The first time I've used the "Like, Whatever Dude" emoticon.

In a normal season Favre has two or three games where he comes out flat and just doesn't play that well. He hasn't had any games like that this year so far. That's the difference. He used to be a slow starter too, generally overthrowing his receivers for the first series or two, but he hasn't been doing that either. I don't see anything to stop him except @Chicago week 16, since that's an outdoor game in the cold and wind. Depending on how things go he may not even play in that game.

 

[SimpleMinded]

Stop dodging the question. Do you think Vince Young is more important for the Titans than Chris Johnson, yes or no?

There is no answer to this question counselor, it's week 13. Right now now neither of them deserve it.

Even with CJ4.24 playing, and playing well, the Titans lost every game until VY started playing. Since VY returned they haven't lost. If they beat Indy this weekend VY deserves mention. MVP is not a "best player" award or a "biggest stats" award, it's a "most valuable to the team" award. No team in history has started out 0-6 and then won the next six games in a row.

BTW, Chris Johnson has three TD runs of over 85 yards this season. No other RB in history has more than three in his entire career.

Yea, but if you took away Chris Johnson and just had Vince Young... do you think they would have won those 5 games in a row? PRobs not...

 

[Brother None]

Yea, but if you took away Chris Johnson and just had Vince Young... do you think they would have won those 5 games in a row? PRobs not...

Probably not. However, we know for a fact that a Titans team with Chris Johnson and without Vince Young lost 6 in a row, and a Titans team with both won 5 in a row. By definition, that makes VY the MVP over Chris Johnson, anything else is speculation on "worth".

 

[Sander]

Probably not. However, we know for a fact that a Titans team with Chris Johnson and without Vince Young lost 6 in a row, and a Titans team with both won 5 in a row. By definition, that makes VY the MVP over Chris Johnson, anything else is speculation on "worth".

You also have to look at schedule, though. The 6 they lost were vs Steelers, Texans, Jets, Colts, Pats and Jaguars. The 5 they won were vs the Jaguars, 49ers, Bills, Texans and Cardinals(without Warner). That's a pretty big difference in strength of schedule.

Also of note is that Chris Johnson had a total of 722 yards(both receiving and rushing) and 3 touchdowns in those first two games, with almost 300 yards and the 3 TDs coming in one game vs the Texans (which they lost by a field goal).

Since Vince Young took over he's had a total of 968 yards and 9 TDs. Basically, when Chris Johnson plays well, the Titans win (except vs the Texans). When he doesn't, they lose. Yes, that coincides with Vince Young taking over and he's the reason Chris Johnson is a lot more productive . It also coincides with a bye week in which they revamped almost everything. Just look at the defense: 198(!) points allowed before the bye week, 91 since the bye week. It's not just offense that's playing better, it's the team as a whole.

I think you have to look at value over potential replacements when determining whether someone is an MVP. Vince Young seems replaceable, Chris Johnson definitely doesn't.

In a normal season Favre has two or three games where he comes out flat and just doesn't play that well. He hasn't had any games like that this year so far. That's the difference. He used to be a slow starter too, generally overthrowing his receivers for the first series or two, but he hasn't been doing that either. I don't see anything to stop him except @Chicago week 16, since that's an outdoor game in the cold and wind. Depending on how things go he may not even play in that game.

Yeah, I know. He's having a freaky good season. Consistency and not turning the ball over really are his biggest assets, and those are after all skills that are hard to find elsewhere.

 

[Brother None]

Basically, when Chris Johnson plays well, the Titans win (except vs the Texans).

And vs the Patriots. Sorry, the "rule" doesn't hold up.

Yes, that coincides with Vince Young taking over and he's the reason Chris Johnson is a lot more productive.

Which, again, would make VY MVP. The output on any skill position always depends on the skill surrounding you. RBs make QBs better, WRs make QBs better. If you pick one of them to be MVP, you usually go for the one who tilts the balance in a team's favour.

Just look at the defense: 198(!) points allowed before the bye week, 91 since the bye week.

1. Defense always improves when offense does (if all other things are equal).
2. As you said, strength of schedule.

Vince Young seems replaceable, Chris Johnson definitely doesn't.

By definition, a QB is significantly less replaceable than an RB. This argument might have worked had Vince Young not led the Titans to a victory with a 99-yard drive to end the game. I don't know if it'll last, but if it does, that makes VY more valuable.

Don't get me wrong, CJ is a special talent, but by definition, there's a much steeper dropoff in talent at the QB position than at the RB position.

 

[Sander]

Which, again, would make VY MVP. The output on any skill position always depends on the skill surrounding you. RBs make QBs better, WRs make QBs better. If you pick one of them to be MVP, you usually go for the one who tilts the balance in a team's favour.

That's probably true. But we can't say anything on Titans with or without Chris Johnson. I think his impact is larger than that of Vince Young.

Hell, Vince Young has 1,050 offensive yards, both passing and rushing on the season. CJ has 968 since Vince Young has returned. That's a running back gaining almost as much yardage as his quarterback, and the quarterback is the MVP?

1. Defense always improves when offense does (if all other things are equal).
2. As you said, strength of schedule.

Sure. But the difference in defensive performance is equal to that in offensive performance. That's a 15-point improvement on defense per game, and on offense. Though the defensive improvement is skewed by the Pats blowout game.

By definition, a QB is significantly less replaceable than an RB. This argument might have worked had Vince Young not led the Titans to a victory with a 99-yard drive to end the game. I don't know if it'll last, but if it does, that makes VY more valuable.

Don't get me wrong, CJ is a special talent, but by definition, there's a much steeper dropoff in talent at the QB position than at the RB position.

That's not actually 'by definition'. Also, I don't know about that. How many top level RBs are there in the league now? 6 people with over 1000 yards rushing, there are 5 QBs with over 3000 yards passing. Both of those positions have a bunch of additional top-level players who are less productive this season (Ronnie Brown, Ricky Williams, DeAngelo Williams, Philip Rivers, Brett Favre, Kurt Warner), but the talent dropoff really doesn't seem that apparent to me. Not this season, at least.

 

[Brother None]

That's probably true. But we can't say anything on Titans with or without Chris Johnson.

Yes. And that hurts his candidacy.

That's a running back gaining almost as much yardage as his quarterback, and the quarterback is the MVP?

I have no problem with CJ as an MVP, I'm just saying, if the Titans make the playoffs (unlikely), VY will be the MVP unless CJ breaks some rushing record.

Also, I don't know about that. How many top level RBs are there in the league now? 6 people with over 1000 yards rushing, there are 5 QBs with over 3000 yards passing.

Wrong angle. You're too new to this game to know that we've seen a recent shift from single, full-workload backs into two-or-three RB backfields. We've seen this shift because it's usually more effective, and it avoids risk of injury. We have markedly not seen this shift because of a lack of talent at RB, just a lack of durability. That makes the question of "is there an equal single talent" less relevant because generally an RB like CJ would be replaced by a committee.

Look at the top-5 passing teams; Colts, Pats, Texans, Saints, Cards. Now look at the top-5 rushing teams: Jets, Titans, Dolphins, Panthers, Saints. Where's the special talents on the Jets team? Who's rushing extraordinarily well for the Saints? Rushing stats aren't about talent as much as they are about situation, the Jets are the leading rushing team in the NFL because of their O-line, I could replace Thomas Jones with a rookie at the drop of a hat and not lose a step. The same is not true for the absolute top-tier talent (two of which, AP and MoJo, you'll conspicuously find have no team in the top-5 rushing), but even them I could replace by committee and slow down, but look at it this way: if the Jets lose Thomas Jones and replace him with a committee of street free agents, do they lose as much speed as the Colts if they replace Manning with a street free agent?

That's not actually 'by definition'.

Yes, it is. The talent dropoff is not the same at every position in the NFL, and some positions have always had steeper dropoffs than others. The QB position has always had a shallow talent pool compared to RB. That's the nature of the game.

but the talent dropoff really doesn't seem that apparent to me.

Really? That's hilarious. Please go back and count for me the number of times this season a team has lost a starting QB with no dropoff in production vs the number of times this season a team has lost a starting RB and seen no significant dropoff or even an increase in production. Hmmmmm?

 

[Sander]

I have no problem with CJ as an MVP, I'm just saying, if the Titans make the playoffs (unlikely), VY will be the MVP unless CJ breaks some rushing record.

If they make the playoffs I might swing over to VY. That's extremely unlikely, obviously, and it's even less likely they do that without CJ breaking the record for rushing yards in a season or the YPC record.

Wrong angle. You're too new to this game to know that we've seen a recent shift from single, full-workload backs into two-or-three RB backfields. We've seen this shift because it's usually more effective, and it avoids risk of injury. That makes the question of "is there an equal single talent" less relevant because generally an RB like CJ would be replaced by a committee.

Look at the top-5 passing teams; Colts, Pats, Texans, Saints, Cards. Now look at the top-5 rushing teams: Jets, Titans, Dolphins, Panthers, Saints. Where's the special talents on the Jets team? Who's rushing extraordinarily well for the Saints? Rushing stats aren't about talent as much as they are about situation, the Jets are the leading rushing team in the NFL because of their O-line, I could replace Thomas Jones with a rookie at the drop of a hat and not lose a step. The same is not true for the absolute top-tier talent (two of which, AP and MoJo, you'll conspicuously find have no team in the top-5 rushing), but even them I could replace by committee and slow down, but look at it this way: if the Jets lose Thomas Jones and replace him with a committee of street free agents, do they lose as much speed as the Colts if they replace Manning with a street free agent?

Good point.

Really? That's hilarious. Please go back and count for me the number of times this season a team has lost a starting QB with no dropoff in production vs the number of times this season a team has lost a starting RB and seen no significant dropoff or even an increase in production. Hmmmmm?

Good point.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Consistency and not turning the ball over really are his biggest assets.

you mean aside from being 40 years old and still being able to gun-sling better than 95% of the rest of the jackasses in the league? as much as i want to hate the cockmunching asshole, it's insane the level he's playing at this year.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Consistency and not turning the ball over really are his biggest assets.

you mean aside from being 40 years old and still being able to gun-sling better than 95% of the rest of the jackasses in the league? as much as i want to hate the cockmunching asshole, it's insane the level he's playing at this year.

Adrian Peterson has become the complimentary player on Favre's Vikings.

 

[Sander]

you mean aside from being 40 years old and still being able to gun-sling better than 95% of the rest of the jackasses in the league? as much as i want to hate the cockmunching asshole, it's insane the level he's playing at this year.

Yes. Because he's making short throws and not turning the ball over. Yes, he's still a great quarterback. I don't think he's playing at a greater level than Manning, Brees or Brady (well, maybe Brady). Maybe add Schaub and Rivers to the list, too. Yet somehow, every time I see him play it seems like he's making good throws, but the receivers are the ones making the real plays.
Of course, that's still incredibly impressive and better than almost anyone in the league. Doubly impressive for a 40-year-old.


In other news, that was one putrid game of Buc ball. It's a miracle it stayed so close, kudos to the defense on that. Freeman threw 5 interceptions, it was terrible.

Also, lulz 2 Vick touchdowns. No one cared about him returning to the Falcons except some media outlets. Now we're going to get a media storm.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

It's not like Favre is dinking and dunking it, he's pushing the ball down the field, more accurately and securely than at any point in his career. Historically he shouldn't have 3 INTs at this point, he should probably have 15. One of the pre-game douchebags bore it out pretty well actually "he's not a gunslinger anymore he's a sharpshooter". But yeah, his WRs are pretty explosive.

Fucking Pats, good thing I sedate myself when I watch them. Still a playoff team due to the weakness of their div, but unless they get their shit together, they're not going anywhere in the playoffs.

Nice Big East Championship yesterday, it'll be interesting what happens if teams like Cincinnati, TCU or Boise if they run the table. The National Championship is basically 'Bama's to loose. But if you win all your games convincingly, how can't you lay claim?
Fucked up system.

And man, Tim Tebow crying, I guess he isn't God's favorite QB after all. Roll Tide.

 

[Sander]

It's not like Favre is dinking and dunking it, he's pushing the ball down the field, more accurately and securely than at any point in his career. Historically he shouldn't have 3 INTs at this point, he should probably have 15. One of the pre-game douchebags bore it out pretty well actually "he's not a gunslinger anymore he's a sharpshooter". But yeah, his WRs are pretty explosive.

Yeah, sure, I know he's a great QB and playing an accurate game. It seems most of the big gains come not from his plays, but from the receivers making huge plays after catch.

Fucking Pats, good thing I sedate myself when I watch them. Still a playoff team due to the weakness of their div, but unless they get their shit together, they're not going anywhere in the playoffs.

No, they're not a playoff team anymore. They're now struggling to get in. They're only one win ahead of their two competitors, and they'd lose a three-way tie, win a tie vs the Jets and the tie vs the Dolphins would depend on future performance.

Nice Big East Championship yesterday, it'll be interesting what happens if teams like Cincinnati, TCU or Boise if they run the table. The National Championship is basically 'Bama's to loose. But if you win all your games convincingly, how can't you lay claim?
Fucked up system.

And man, Tim Tebow crying, I guess he isn't God's favorite QB after all. Roll Tide.

Tebow looks and sounds like he's on the verge of crying in every interview I've seen of him. He needs to get laid.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

No, they're not a playoff team anymore. They're now struggling to get in. They're only one win ahead of their two competitors, and they'd lose a three-way tie, win a tie vs the Jets and the tie vs the Dolphins would depend on future performance.

Jets in the playoffs? Check out the Pat's remaining schedule, Christmas is coming early. If the Pats don't win out, the playoffs are moot.

 

[Sander]

Jets in the playoffs? Check out the Pat's remaining schedule, Christmas is coming early. If the Pats don't win out, the playoffs are moot.

Yeah, the Pats have the easiest schedule. But they're far from certain to go the playoffs.

Also, looks like the breakdown of the Vikes might be starting. Or at least, this is a really bad game for the Vikes. Can't get much done on either running or passing.

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

Kurt Warner > Brett Favre


Also, Jarrod Allen got owned by backup LT Jeremy Bridges. No Pressure, Warner had all day.