Cimmerian Nights said:
Well. Are they just?
NFL 2011
- Thread starter Nology5890
- Start date
Well. Are they just?
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I don't think it's a simple yes or no answer. In some ways they go overboard, but I don't know how you effectively and rationally regulate a system like college athletics. We haven't seen the outrageous excesses like in the 80s. Call it the Bosworth era. Players today are paying the price for those excesses.
It's one of those symbiotically exploitative arrangements that no one wants to face up to the reality and inevitability of (except maybe you Dutch in Amsterdam). Like drugs or prostitution. In and of itself they're a victimless crime, and both parties benefit. But it's hardly ethical practice.
I will tell you I played college LAX, non-scholarship walk-on. I had to take every manner of grant and loan available and wash dishes in the cafeteria for work study. Meanwhile, there were scholarship athletes at my school that never went to class, had others do their work, and not that any of that mattered because they never intended to graduate anyway.
The exploitation goes both ways, but regardless it's sad to see meat heads be given every opportunity of a college education and not take advantage. WTF does Pacman Jones do for the rest of his life w/o football?
It's one of those symbiotically exploitative arrangements that no one wants to face up to the reality and inevitability of (except maybe you Dutch in Amsterdam). Like drugs or prostitution. In and of itself they're a victimless crime, and both parties benefit. But it's hardly ethical practice.
I will tell you I played college LAX, non-scholarship walk-on. I had to take every manner of grant and loan available and wash dishes in the cafeteria for work study. Meanwhile, there were scholarship athletes at my school that never went to class, had others do their work, and not that any of that mattered because they never intended to graduate anyway.
The exploitation goes both ways, but regardless it's sad to see meat heads be given every opportunity of a college education and not take advantage. WTF does Pacman Jones do for the rest of his life w/o football?
UniversalWolf
eaten by a grue.
I think most or all of the "major" college football programs cheat to some extent, but not every player cheats. I live in a town with a small public university (Division III, I think, but it could be lower) that isn't big enough to offer athletic scholarships, and from hearsay I know that even they cheat as far as covering for bad grades and low test scores.
The reason policing the amateurism of college athletics is a losing battle is because most people or many people or in any case enough people don't see the cheating as wrong. It's not actually illegal, and if you look around for a victim, you're not going to find one. That's why the policing is mostly done by competing universities looking to undermine each other. People only really get upset by certain kinds of cheating. If the coach has a team of "advisors" who do all the star running back's homework and take his tests for him, that gets attention. If the football program starts covering for athletes who commit violent crimes, that gets attention. The NCAA doesn't seem to punish those kinds of transgressions as aggressively as it punishes cash payoffs, though.
The real scam is the NFL profiting from a publicly-funded developmental league. If they had to provide a minor league of their own it would solve most of the problems with college football cheating.
I remember when I was in college the Badgers got a highly-touted basketball recruit named Rashard Griffiths. He was 7'2" and played in the NBA for a few seasons. Everyone knew he was a poor kid from a bad neighborhood in Chicago, and yet I used to see him driving around campus in a brand-new Isuzu SUV. I'm sure he bought it with money from his summer jobs, though.
The reason policing the amateurism of college athletics is a losing battle is because most people or many people or in any case enough people don't see the cheating as wrong. It's not actually illegal, and if you look around for a victim, you're not going to find one. That's why the policing is mostly done by competing universities looking to undermine each other. People only really get upset by certain kinds of cheating. If the coach has a team of "advisors" who do all the star running back's homework and take his tests for him, that gets attention. If the football program starts covering for athletes who commit violent crimes, that gets attention. The NCAA doesn't seem to punish those kinds of transgressions as aggressively as it punishes cash payoffs, though.
The real scam is the NFL profiting from a publicly-funded developmental league. If they had to provide a minor league of their own it would solve most of the problems with college football cheating.
I remember when I was in college the Badgers got a highly-touted basketball recruit named Rashard Griffiths. He was 7'2" and played in the NBA for a few seasons. Everyone knew he was a poor kid from a bad neighborhood in Chicago, and yet I used to see him driving around campus in a brand-new Isuzu SUV. I'm sure he bought it with money from his summer jobs, though.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I'd agree. I'd also make the distinction between what I'd term procedural violations - the shit the governs recruiting practices not related to "pay for play" i.e. amount/frequency of contact with recruits, circumstances etc. Basically rules there to level the recruiting playing field and give structure and accountability to the process. Everybody probably is in violation of these rules to some extent, but mostly because the rules are so intrusive and extensive.UniversalWolf said:
I'd separate that stuff from bald-faced corruption like a pay to play system, or getting in with an agent too soon etc.
They should come up with a loan system, where if these kids are that promising, can get some operating cash, and some fucking accountability and structure for everyone.
Not just free wheeling shit of yore with agents handing out 'Vettes and Dom Perignon and anabolic steroids.
Well, that's largely true.
But remember Dexter Manley from the 'Skins Dynasty (100+ sack guy)? After getting banned for life from the NFL for violating the drug policy again and again (think about how hard this was to do in the 80s?), he then came out and had a press conference to announce he was illiterate after 4 years of college (just love those crying NFL d-lineman press conferences).
Jackass.
You fucking skated through uni, high on coke, you got paid. You made millions in the NFL. You torched your career and then want sympathy when you realized all those people feeding you money and dope didn't really give a shit about you after football. You are dumb Dexter.
I wish I could find that press conference...Better than the 'all good things come to an end' or *gulp* Brady's tampon commercial thingy.
Bingo.
I have no bone to pick with Cam Newton, but I suspect the majority of the whining you hear about him comes from UofF, 'Bama, LSU and the other SEC schools. The intensity of their shrill whining being in commensurate proportion to the brilliance of Newton's Heisman, SEC and BCS championships.
If he hadn't accomplished that, they wouldn't care either.
This is where the hypocrisy comes in. I think the NCAA are actually trumped by the BCS in college ball in terms of corruption/greed (to be honest, I'm not even sure how they work together in college ball. Does anyone?). But in the other sports like basketball, the NCAA runs the whole show.
It's obvious they benefit from the WFL and UFL being around, and that neither one are really profitable enough to stand on their own. They should just bite the bullet and subsidize it. Be it in Europe, here, wherever.
Bucs-Bears in London this fall. Looks like I'm going again.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
AKA the Bucs only "home" sellout.
UniversalWolf
eaten by a grue.
Take the Ohio State scandal from last season...I didn't follow the story closely, but as I understand it, the players traded their bowl game rings and some jerseys or something for tattoos. Dumb, sure, but hardly a crime. They exchanged their own personal property for something else of value. It's only wrong to the NCAA because they're trying to preserve some abstract idea of amateur student-athleticism.Cimmerian Nights said:
Not a bad matchup, actually...if there's a season.Sander said:
Quite possibly, though I would expect a couple of sellouts next year. Monday Night Football against the Colts - I can't see that game not selling out, for instance.Cimmerian Nights said:
I'm still convinced a deal will get done in time.UniversalWolf said:
And yeah, it should be better than Bucs-Pats and 49ers-Broncos the past two seasons. Then again, who knows what the Bucs and Bears will really look like.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Yeah, and Tressel seems like a pretty righteous dude to me. I don't understand how these coaches can be held responsible for what these guys do 24-7. It goes back to mostly just Mich. and PSU alum bitching b/c Tressel has owned them for a decade. Of course they want to see him out.UniversalWolf said:
We're seeing the same thing around here with UCONN & Jim Calhoun, they are under sanctions for him making too many phone calls to a recruit. Of course the NCAA in hypocritical fashion let both UCONN and OSU play their postseasons (cha-ching!) and deferred punishment until the beginning of next year (out-of-conference cupcake games!). UCONN won the Big East and National championships under deferred sanctions. I never heard of this before where they find them guilty then defer sanctions to after the post-season to start the next year. That's just shady and points out clearly where their priorities lie.
Oh We'll come down hard on Tyrell Pryor, but we wouldn't want to do anything hasty and prevent him from making us more money as the marquee guy in a marquee game. NCAA is really on shaky ground when it comes to judging these affairs. They make money hand-over-fist off these kids. Hey lets expand the basketball tourney again, but football playoffs, no way, these kids can't miss school!
Calhoun understands what it's all about, and delivers some New England Yankee diplomacy:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xokthY5zuPU[/youtube]
What was the take tonight? Love it.
NCAA players need to start asking that question.
If Cam Newton asked that question, I think it would be bedlam.
The more it drags on, the less sympathy I have for either side.Not a bad matchup, actually...if there's a season.
That's our (consumer's) $9B they are cutting up. Who fucking mediates for the fans and our $30 parking, $8 Coors lights and PSLs? I kind of wish they would take a hit for dragging this shit out.
That TV money is hours and hours of Bud Light and Dodge Ram commercials that I'm subjected to. You want to talk hardship?
UniversalWolf
eaten by a grue.
Anyone else see Gruden's QB Camps on ESPN? I haven't seen all of them, but I did see Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, and some of Jake Locker. Not impressed with Newton or Locker, but I did like Dalton. He looked great in the Rose Bowl and he seems to have the correct mindset and attitude for the position. Hopefully his arm is strong enough.
I'm glad Cam Newton's not coming to my team. His personality annoys me and he seems really full of himself already, despite his accuracy being only so-so. Picking him number one overall seems like a colossal risk unless you're comfortable with a QB who acts like a diva WR.
I wouldn't want to take Locker in the first round either.
I want to see Mallett. I've heard he didn't come off so good.
I'm glad Cam Newton's not coming to my team. His personality annoys me and he seems really full of himself already, despite his accuracy being only so-so. Picking him number one overall seems like a colossal risk unless you're comfortable with a QB who acts like a diva WR.
I wouldn't want to take Locker in the first round either.
I want to see Mallett. I've heard he didn't come off so good.
Feh, it's all bullshit. You can't judge a kid's character by a couple minutes of footage edited together byUniversalWolf said:
But, of course, that's exactly what happens. What, Mallett wasn't nice to a journalist when he was the tenth consecutive guy to ask him the same exact question about drugs he kept answering with "I'm not going to discuss that in public, I'll talk about that with the teams". HE CAN'T HANDLE PRESSURE, HE'S A FAILURE, HE'LL BE A COLOSSAL BUST!
Bullshit. Nothing more, nothing less.
That said, Gruden's QB Camp stuff was interesting because there was some schematic and teaching insight in there. Not because it gave me an insight into some QB's mind.
Nology5890
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Has Gruden done a QB Camp episode with Rick Stanzi? He's basically a hero around my parts, what with being "Captain America" incarnate, and absolutely tearing it up this past season, despite how the defense for the Hawks failed at the end of games.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Newton has so little college experience, and roughly half of it was spent rushing. Too much risk. His most impressive body of work was in JC, and...dominance doesn't do him justice. But he'd have been playing against guys...like me, that's doesn't give any kind of indication to me of what he can do at higher levels against people his size/caliber.UniversalWolf said:
I don't care that he called numbered plays. He played in an up-tempo offense, like a no huddle. Expediency was the priority.
The most damning thing about his personality to me was the stunt he pulled in the Nat'l Championship game when he ran it in instead of kneeling. You don't start calling your own number in a national championship game (and almost fumble it (behind a gimpy O-line)).
I don't know who said that, but I can't blame a FO for not wanting to give him the keys to your franchise and a contract in the tens of millions.
Kind of ignores that he he's about as mobile as a tree and the only game I saw him play in (bowl game) he looked like shit.
If you draft him and he turns out to be the next Todd Marinovich, you've basically set your franchise back 3-5 years. It's not like he looks like Peyton Manning coming out, no sure bet at all.
I'd rather grab Mark Bulger than roll the dice on one of these QBs.
Love it or leave it. I think Stanzi is too far down the board.
I keep hearing he's a Belichik type of guy though.
I just hope that Pats pick up a couple of pieces to the puzzle, likely trade down out of this draft for some dumbfuck's 1st rounder next year.
Would be nice to, oh I don't know, draft a fucking pass rusher sometime this decade. Tully Banta-Cain not exactly striking fear into opposing teams methinks.
The question remains when Belichik finally deploys the whole warchest for one final putsch.
Of course. But that has nothing to with what I'm saying: NFL media are so focused on character and how these players interact with them, that they try to crucify or hail a player as the next coming of Drew Brees based solely on a few short interviews he gave. It's bullshit. Of course character is important, but it takes a lot more than an interview and a few minutes of footage to understand how a person works, and both media folk and media consumers tend to forget that. They just get a first impression of a kid and are ready to judge.Cimmerian Nights said:
Never. He's a volume drafter who lets players fall to him, not a guy who goes after the big talent who he falls in love with.Cimmerian Nights said:
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
If you're drafting a QB in the 1st round, the rookie wage scale being what it is, that QB is going to be the cornerstone of the whole team for a long time to come. That's why they are so dismissive.Sander said:
After high profile character debacles like Vick, Leaf, JaMarcus, Leinart, Vince Young etc., I'm not surprised at all. It's due diligence.
If he can't handle questions now, he wouldn't last 5 minutes in a fishbowl like NYC or Boston or Philly after a loss.
No shit they ask annoying questions, and try to get under your skin, they want to see if they can make the Ryan Leaf in you come out prior to, not after, you got drafted.
The burden of proof is on the 20 year old who dropped out of college and wants millions of dollars.
Once you can establish NFL productivity, teams will be more willing to accept character flaws (T.O.). But rookies are too unknowable. Again, I'd be more comfortable with Mark Bulger as my starter than any of these rookies.
I have no problem with this, but then you know my feeling about the lack of starting NFL caliber QBs and over-expansion of teams. If we're going forward with the "QB league" marketing scheme, can we not go to every length possible to ensure we can have some
competent QBs? I don't see any problem with that at all.
You ever watch a JaMarcus Russell game? It was excruciating. If asking him a few questions that take him out of his comfort zone expose something about his character, I'd say we'd all have been better off for it.
Leadership is a big part of playing QB.
He can't coach forever, I don't see why he'd continue to 'stock up' without end. Then again, a roster can only absorb so many draft picks every year... He has traded up with good success in the past, just not for high profile skill players.Sander said:
Again: missing the point. I'm not disputing that character and leadership are important for quarterbacks. Of course they are. My problem isn't with *teams* doing their due diligence and getting whatever they can out of a player, they have to do that. My problem is with *media and fans* taking a five-minute public interview and turning it into the definitive guide to a player's character. That's horseshit.Cimmerian Nights said:
Have you seen the Ryan Mallett interview? It wasn't bad, at all. He kept answering the same question, saying, every time "Look, I'm not going to talk about that with the press, I'm going to talk about that with the team." Which is fine. But somehow people blew him up for it and pretended he started shouting at interviewers or something.
Tell that to Don Shula.Cimmie said:
Shula retired at 65. Standing working career really. That'd give Bill 6 more years! Or does he retire when Tom Brady does?
Also, don't forget Newton's story too. He was asked how he felt about marketing contracts once he's a player and to THAT he answers "I'm a player as well as an entertainer", yet because Peter King - in his ever incompetent glory - failed to mention the context, the quote was blown up and is still talked about as meaningful now. It isn't, it doesn't mean anything.
Gruden camp make for entertaining TV but not too meaningful. For reasons listed.
Also, don't forget Newton's story too. He was asked how he felt about marketing contracts once he's a player and to THAT he answers "I'm a player as well as an entertainer", yet because Peter King - in his ever incompetent glory - failed to mention the context, the quote was blown up and is still talked about as meaningful now. It isn't, it doesn't mean anything.
Gruden camp make for entertaining TV but not too meaningful. For reasons listed.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Sander said:
I wouldn't put much stock in what the mainstream opinion of middle-America is on much of anything. But news editors do, and news editors force news writers to do stupid shit like mock drafts to appease the troglodytes, not as a drafting resources for NFL front offices.
So, yeah consider the source and the intended audience.
I don't really see the need to invest my time into finding out how all these guys tick, since half of them will probably wash out anyway (I'll just save myself the time). I try to watch some big college matchups and bowls if I can. And I know what I see. That's it. I watch college ball because I enjoy it in and of itself, not as an exercise in scouting.
If any of these guys that I don't know about (most of them) turn out to be worth watching in the pros, I'm sure I'll find out about it then.
I'm not interested in potential but the process of realization.
Yeah, pretty much lived off his rep. for the last 10 years there.Sander said:
Helps to be a head coach when you're on the fucking competition committee too!
Latter-day Shula/Marino couldn't get past the Bills almost-dynasty.
Americans don't want to waste their time with context and perspective and the idea that an issue might have multi-facets. You're complicating things.BN said:
We want information that confirms our prejudices.
The kid does have panache, a winning smile, and the ultimate clean-cut jock look. He'll be like Brady Quinn or Tebow, one of these guys that gets the endorsements, despite not starting just because of their notoriety.
I think him going #1 is bullshit.
Lockout lifted by judge Nelson. NFL is seeking a stay, but if they don't get it very quick we're in for a crazy period of FA-frenzy.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I know, I keep checking the Redskins' online store for when they put up the fetushead jerseys. Refresh, damn you!Brother None said: