No More Moore!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Paladin Solo, May 5, 2004.

  1. RAKTHEUNDEAD

    RAKTHEUNDEAD First time out of the vault

    59
    Jun 18, 2004
    Actually, the baseline of the compass is actually Centrism(before Reagan and Thatcher). So, a lot of people who are themselves conservative would think that the baseline is actually Communism, I'm assured that it is not.

    Chomsky is described as a "libertarian-leftist". That basically means that he's in the same sector as Moore himself, Nader, Orwell, et cetera.
     
  2. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    Orwell was a Social Democrat who hated pacifists.
     
  3. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    *bitch-slap*

    Anarchist, boy, anarchist. Who else would fight besides the FAI and CNT in 1936?
     
  4. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    You don't know what you are talking about. He was a devout English Socialist.
     
  5. Bradylama

    Bradylama Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 22, 2003
    If Orwell was an anarchist, why would he have fought in the Spanish Civil War for the communists? Granted, that experience led to his disdain of communism, but that doesn't mean he's an anarchist.

    He claimed that the United States government encouraged the Khmer Rhouge to execute people in order to encourage hatred of Communism. He's out of his fucking mind.
     
  6. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell

    Why on earth would you claim something so obviously false Wooz?
     
  7. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    CC, I read a biography about him, not Wikipedia, m'kay? And during the civil war, in catalonia, he fought *against* the communist AND the fascist forces *with* the FAI and CNT. Brady, not only communists fought against Franco, and there are not only communists in the Left.

    have a look CNT: Confederacion Nacional de Trabajadores, which merged with the FAI and UGT : the party mentioned here as a "marxist workers' party"

    Anyhow, you haven't grasped what anarchism is, have you? The hell, what else is anarchism if not ultra-democratic, ultra-liberal socialism?

    O, rly? Any proof against that claim?
     
  8. welsh

    welsh This ghoul has seen it all

    Apr 5, 2003
    Wooz- I have to agree with CC on the whole Orwell thing. From what I recall, Orwell has been labeled a socialist. However, that he criticizes both communism and western capitalism, would also suggest that he's more realistically in the anarchist camp. I remember reading one paper that pointed out that the criticism Orwell makes in 1984 has much to do with his disillusionment of government as a means of repression, especially as the communists repressed most of the anarchists.

    But I also agree with your point "corporatism is evil" and that the point raised earlier that corporatism looks awfully a lot like facism. Which is why perhaps it's so damn troublesome. The concept, used mostly for Latin American, seemed to fit those countries fairly well.

    Let's check for tests of strength-
    One presidental candidate went to Vietnam, got wounded and got decorated as a war hero.
    The vice-president made a career out of representing victims in negligence and product's liability suits against negligent companies (let's see, one suit involved a girl who got decapitated in a swimming pool, and another involved a kid left orphaned by a negligent trucking company).

    Vs.

    One guy who, overlooking the coke and alcohol problems, got the job because his daddy is in office and because he's been bankrolled by Saudi Arabia. He managed to avoid getting shot at or his courage tested when he joined the National Guard, although his officers don't recall him showing up, and he spent his time in Alabama on a political race. Hmmm.... That said he did launch us into a war based on false pretenses after his VP pressured the intelligence agencies to be forthcoming with documents.

    But is he brave? is he strong? Well he did land on an aircraft carrier, wear a flight uniform and say "hostilities are over" though 1000 dead and god knows how many wounded (and many with limbs) later we are still getting shot at by unknown insurgents.

    Hmmmm.

    And the VP- Dick Cheney- aka the puppet master, aka the experienced insider who was supposed to guide the inexperience governor in the white house- who managed to launch a war yet make his former company very rich in the process. Wouldn't it kill ya if he gets a big bonus when he's time is up. (If God has a sense of humor he'll start tinkering with Cheney's Ticker).


    YEs, there are wealthy and influential in the US too. And while we can connect the dots, one has to wonder if this influential family might be using it's money for influential reasons.

    Now you may say Moore is blowing hot air, but unfortunately, and like so many other things in the film, this is old news. What Moore only does is remind us.

    Honestly CC, can you really trust an administration that owes (literally) so much to the Saudi's.

    (But of course Kerry married a rich woman and Edwards is a trial lawyer - real dangers there).

    Hardly, but then the difference is that the democratic special interests are a hell of a lot less scary.

    ACLU vs. Haliburton?
    NAACP vs. Energy Lobby?
    Sierra Club vs. GM?

    And if you don't think it matters- back to the money- Top 1% and mostly the top 10% of that 1% provides most of Republican money.

    How much privilege do you think that kind of money pays for?

    Yes but the Bush administration doesn't even want us seeing our dead come home. OUr guys who go over there come home to no notice, the wounded go off to the VA hospital and stay out of the public's eye. Why? Because the goverment doesn't want us to see it. And this happened with the last Bush administration.

    I don't think Moore protrayed our soldiers as Nazis. Some were pretty callous, but hey man remember Vietnam? I mean come on? Read Black Hawk Down and you see the same kind of shit. And he says it- You put people in immoral situations and they will begin to act immorally. Why does this come as a suprise.

    Yet Moore also shows the GI's who do give care, are conscientious, and are concerned. He also points out that so many of the guys going over there come from towns were there are few opportunities but joining the army. I remember the recruiters trying to get me when I was 17 ("not a problem son, we'll get your mom to sign for ya.) There are a lot of young guys here who are buying the recruiter pitch.

    Under-privileged kids going off to fight for the US. Is this unusual? Did this not happen in Vietnam? Don't kids go to the Army so they can get money for college? Isn't that how they sell it?

    Corrupt unions- could it be that the reason why workers in this country have not seen significant cost of living increases, and that we now live in a society where most families have to have both parents working- could this have anything to do with the fact that labor is not organized or strong?

    NAACP- let's see- they did fight the battle that seperate but equal is not equal. They did push the Voting Rights Act, and they do help keep Blacks politically engaged.

    Or are you suggesting that Blacks don't deserve to be part of the political process because they are poor, subordinate, probably doing crack and are politically insignificant (aka the Republican position).

    Ok back to special interests- The Sierra Club says don't drill for oil in Alaska because we can resolve that by improving standards on SUVs. Why are standards important- because SUVs generally don't have crumple zones, because they tend to roll over, because they are gas guzzlers that are used primarily for the same reasons as commerical cars, and because while owners may have a false sense of security, they make driving for non-SUV owners more hazardous. The answer- raise emission standards and fuel consumption and regulate SUVs more closely.

    Of course that would work against the energy and auto-lobby- people who contribute to Bush. SO that gets shot down.

    Now I am not saying that business and government shouldn't work together. What I am suggestion is that when the relationship becomes too close, they begin to look alike, and I am not sure if government is working for business- and that's another problem with the Republicans.

    Yes, Richard Clarke, the 9/11 commission?

    Actually following the first WTC bombing, Clinton raised funding for terrorism. This was cut by the republican controlled Congress. When Clarke remained after Bush came in, there was no general overview on terrorism, but there was interest for going to war with Iraq.

    Millenium bombing sounds like it was done by a bunch of christian nuts who wanted to usher in the second-coming of Christ.

    Can't say really, because Bush stole the election because there was no recount in Florida.

    Would Gore have botched it too. Maybe.

    How much vacation time did Bush take his first year. I did recall it seemed quite a bit.

    Services? YOu mean McDonalds? Or Construction jobs- 20% going to illegal workers because they don't cost as much.

    Yes, because he's an idiot and lots of people could see where the country was going with Bush, even if the many Americans couldn't.

    But let's turn back a bit- 9/11 and everyone is loving us and feeling bad for what happened. Go to years up and it's becoming unsafe for Americans to travel abroad.

    And you know, Clinton was very popular. Maybe it's just this president who people dislike.

    Here's the thing about Moore- for the most part he's not saying anything we don't already know. He's just putting it together.

    Love that bit with the guy who's name got inked out in the National Guard records.
     
  9. RAKTHEUNDEAD

    RAKTHEUNDEAD First time out of the vault

    59
    Jun 18, 2004
    Well, he could be considered a "libertarian-socialist" or an anarcho-socialist as well.

    Well, that's because according to Mussolini, corporatism IS fascism. Either way, I get what you're saying, they're both authoritarian, they're both ultra-capitalist.
     
  10. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    BULLSHIT. He called himself a SOCIALIST. SO-CIAL-IST. He said it HIMSELF. I don't care who he faught with, he showed up in a Trotskyite uniform and almost got himself killed for it.

    Again, show me a statement by Orwell along the lines of "I am an Anarchaist", because I just have to bring out the Epilouge of 1984 or anything else to see him say I AM A SOCIALIST.


    I'd say he was more a pessimist then anything, even a Demcoratic Socialoist pre-Third Way time. His "I see a boot standing on a face, forever" quote is pretty dark.

    Full of crap. A life time of service in the Senate has turned every opinon of Kerry into something flexible, and he's the most firmly anti-exceptionalist canidate........ever. I don't want to think about what America would be like with him in President.


    I really, really hate consipiry theroies, and frankly, this just makes me to angry to answer.


    Welsh, we can't do anything about Saudi Arabia adn you know that. We can't invade, we can't give wepons, we can't do SHIT. Thus I honestly do not care.


    :roll:
    Edwards was so unpopular in North Carolina that he decided to run for president. That's a pretty big fucking liability.


    I don't think so. I think you have a bizzare look at large, American coroporations. These corporations mean jobs, mean money, mean American power. The ACLU means a guy can fuck a sheep in a nativity scene and get the Church sued for having the Nativity Scene.

    Mebbe because it's happeend in every American war?

    Okay, like soldiers in Vietnam, which is bad.

    He showed them acting without reason or morals- when in each situation there was a very likely reason (the mother screaming "He's Just a Collage Student" about a very likely terrorist, for instance).

    I'm fairly priviliaged, and I'm going into some branch of the military. So did John Kerry who comes from just as wealthy backgrounds as Kerry, and alot more then Cheyney (actually Edwards comes from a more priviliaged background then Cheyney, oddly enough).


    Organized and strong?



    :lol:

    Hil-arious! Apparently you've forgotten what happened to manufacturing jobs in the 70's and 80's.


    :roll:

    Yeah, cause in all those years at Kenwood, I just learned that those damned coloreds can'ts be learned!

    That's totally full of shit. The Republican party has a MUCH longer history of the respect of the Civil Rights of African Americans, from Abraham Lincoln freeing the slaves, to the foundation of the party on Free-Soil votes, to Roosevelt telling reporters to shove it after having an African American over for dinner.

    Frankly, I think the NAACP is working against the African American community by enhancing the victumized complex which gets rid of personal responsibility. Not to mention how stupid the OMFG THESE COROPRATIONS BENEFITED FROM SLAVERY KILL!


    So, you're against indepepndance from foreign oil?
    9/11 commision that said Bush had nothing to do with the intellegence foul ups at the CIA.


    Why not? The CIA kept feeding him bad intellegence. Heck, Herr Clinton even said he would have gone to war in Iraq. You know, it's funny, I kind of liked him as president, but he's pretty smart now that he's out of office (though his book is crap).


    Despite how much Moore can throw anecdotal shit at you're face, you must realize that his "vacation time" was'nt entirely such. Heck, he meets almost all foriegn leaders there.


    I love the smell of bullshit in the morning. Democrats try and try to make the stunning job growth seem meaningless, but you know what, I, and the vast majority of American's, don't care for that, particularly when it's almost all speculation.

    Unsafe for Americans to travel abroad?

    You still have'nt touched the fact that the rise of Islamic Fundementalism made war in the mid east and subsequent disliking of the "imperialist" Americans inevitable, or that most of the post-9/11 sympathy was hog wash, even Le Monde's 9/12 article talked about how America deserved it.


    :lol:

    You mean to tell me on 9/11 19 people crashed air planes into buildings caus they did'nt like the 2000 election? Or maybe the nasty parts of Islam where never known until 2000?


    I actually found that incriminatiing- he was talking about Bush skipping out on service when he had evidence to the contrary.
     
  11. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    :roll:

    here

    Hahahaha! Trotskist uniform? Dude, remind me who killed all the anarchists in Russia post 1917? That's right, the Red Army. Formed by who, History-whiz?

    Wait.

    "Trotskyst uniform"?
     
  12. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    AGAIN NO WHERE DOES ORWELL SAY HE WAS AN ANARCHIST! GOD DAMNIT!


    ORWELL REPORTED FOR DUTY IN THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR IN A TROTSKYIST UNIFORM. HE WAS ALMOST KILLED BY STALINISTS.

    PLEASE BE QUITE. YOU HAVE BEEN PAWNED. EVEN WELSH AGREED WITH ME.
     
  13. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    Wooz, this is the best you've got

    And it's not very good. Face it, Orwell was NOT an Anarchist.

    This is the most accurate description
    And I don't entirely agree with it as he was against ownership of property- something at the core of non leftist-anarchism.
     
  14. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    1) Spell properly, there's a SpellCheck feature, ya know.
    2) Unblock the capslock on your keyboard, please.
    3) Since you want proof so much, link or stfu about the uniform.
    4) Read this and, erm. Stfu already?
     
  15. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    Wooz, Anarchism as a big, messy political ideology, and if you stress it enough, hell, the early Libertarians could be considerd Anarchists.

    However, he was firmly against pacifisim and ownership of property, two things at the heart of all pre-1978 Anarchists.
     
  16. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    Don't want to turn this into another anarchism debate, CC ( if this bothers anyone please split this from the thread)
    . I agree with you on the first paragraph.

    BUT

    - Anarchism never promoted pacifism. Hell, the terrorist bombings in Chicago at the beggining of the century, black blocs at strikes, CNT militia...

    - Ownership of property? Wait. Proudhon, Bakounine and Kropotkin were all pre-1978, huge anarchist theoreticians, and all were, the degree differing with each one, against excessive property rights, and against Privatization... Remeber the average worker's conditions in the late 19th century.

    That, or you mean ownership of all property by the state, which isn't Anarchism anymore, it's called Communism, two different ideologies.

    Big meh. That said, there'a a huge leap from Orwell to Chomsky...
     
  17. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    That's true, but it's usually against "imperialist" wars, not wars that benefit it.

    I forgot about the terrorist bombings in Chicago.

    *gets angry at Wooz*

    True, but Socialism's ultimate goal is a world without personal property, and only recently (ie post rise of Communism, alot more after the fall) have Leftist Anarchists (crypto commies) sprung up.


    I hate Chomsky more then any other living man. More then Osama, as at least Chomsky is intellegent.
    *shudders*
     
  18. Bradylama

    Bradylama Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 22, 2003
    While Libertarianism teeters on the edge of the Freedom Cliff, Anarchism has bashed itself on the rocks.

    How can socialism exist without a government to regulate the re-distribution of wealth?

    IF anything Anarchism is ultimate-freedom ultimate-capitalism. In a world where anybody can do aything they want, capitalists would set up businesses and do whatever they damn well pleased. Why would Orwell support this kind of movement?

    Also, communism and socialism aren't the same thing. Communism is a socialist economy with an authoritarian government. Its a combination of liberal economics with social control. You can have a socialist economy with a democracy or republic. Like Norway, for instance.


    Is there any proof to support it? No. But then, even Chomsky himself said he was wrong about it.

    People lap up Chomsky's bullshit because they're too stupid to realize that he's telling them exactly what they want to hear, that America is evil, and that they're smart for being liberals.

    Chomsky represents everything I detest about the modern liberal movement, as it's become more of an anti-government ideology than a progressive one.


    Also, Welsh, to think that a Democratic president wouldn't be bound to the wishes of the Sauds is a bit naive.

    And if Bush really was in the Sauds pocket, then why would he do everything the Sauds feared? He invaded Iraq, and is threatening to destroy Arabia's oil monopoly.
     
  19. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    ...

    Dude, before you post such a Bloody Stupid comment on a political movement you clearly don't have the faintest idea about, do some research on it, m'kay?

    Hint: "Search" function.
     
  20. welsh

    welsh This ghoul has seen it all

    Apr 5, 2003
    [
    Folks, I think we need to calm down a bit about Orwell. I mean really, the guy is dead.

    Nice links Wooz. I remember a student doing a paper on Orwell and making the argument that Orwell was more anarchist than socialist, but it was more a discussion on his writings, less a personal history.

    But I had thought that anarchists often fell into "socialist" labels as well.

    And CC- you note that I was qualified in my support for you, and no one ever said I can't be wrong, did they?

    That's the republican line. Of course a few years as governor of Texas was a lot of experience for GB. The business of the Senate is compromise and negotiation to make legislation. If you haven't noticed many bills come as amalgamations of a variety of other legislation that get linked by compromise.

    So, if Kerry seems to waffle, perhaps we need to look at the legislation a bit more and get a little reality about what the business of the Senate really is.

    That said, if Bush is a non-flexible "war president" who looks after his business colleagues interests and who gets the voters because he knows he's good with God- I am not sure if that's such a good thing. The business of statecraft is often one of flexibility, not rigid ideological inflexibility to a neo-con position.

    But hey, GB can dress up in a military uniform and be "the war president." Odd though that he's got no personal experience in war but is perfectly happy sending others to fight for him.

    So you are denial that Cheney pressured the intelligence agencies to support the war? Are you saying Cheney's appeal as VP was his experience? Are you saying that politicans don't leave office for cushy jobs in the private sector or as well paid consultants?
    The "if you can't beat them, join them" answer. Saudi Arabia is important because they sit on so much oil, but if a new government were to come to office would they still have to sell the oil? Are you saying that the world's most powerful country has no power over the Saudi's?

    Really, the problem here is not that we don't have power, we do. The problem is that the Saudi's influence that power. And there lies the problem. The problem with the Bush family is that they have vested interests. We expect our leaders to be fiduciaries to the people of the US, not the interests that give them money.

    Actually Edwards is sitting on a seat in Congress that no candidate has been able to hold for more than 6 years in a long time. Given the instability of the seat and the likely turnover he's looking for a new position.

    It is not a question of being unpopular, but that North Carolina likes to vote for new Senators.

    CC- there is a line between making a good point and sounding foolish, and you are dancing way over that line.

    And for the past 30 years worker salaries have gone down compared to cost of living increases. In terms of purchasing power, american have been slowly loosing salary. Why? Because cheap labor is good for business.

    The ACLU is a very weak union because American is generally anti-union and I will agree that unions in the US have often caused more problems then they should. On the other hand, without unions individual workers would have no power vis-a-vis employers and more of us would be like the woman who work at Walmart and make only enough money to buy at Walmart. Unions have helped get worker's rights, improve salaries, and improve benefits for many workers. It is the power to organize collectively in a free market for labor that gives Unions their strength.

    So you have missed the articles about the drivers Haliburton hires to take nothing nowhere? Are you suggesting corporations have not been skimming the books on the American people on this?

    I agree that government and business should work together for the good of the economy, but there also have to be clear definitions of where the boundaries exist least things become corrupt. The problem with this administration is that the lines are to unclear and often crossed.

    Actually it hasn't. It has also been the business of presidents to commemorate the war dead, but this administration prefers to avoid that kind of thing. Bad press photos that open the questions.

    "So.... what are we doing in Iraq? What did you tell us was the reason?'

    "Hey, you know those WMDs.... Where are they?"

    I think most of the guys who went to Vietnam served honorably.

    That said, denying that bad shit happened in Vietnam is nor only a case of selective memory, but it also means you are failing to heed the lessons of the past and are likely to repeat those mistakes.

    And so we get a prison scandal.

    Are you telling an army in which few people speak the language of the land they occupy doesn't make mistakes. How many innocent people did get killed or continue to get killed. I don't know because the government doesn't keep those numbers. Why? Too many questions maybe?

    Do mistakes happen- yes. When you're getting shot at on a regular basis you don't take many risks.

    The impression I got wasn't that he was blaming these guys. They are a bunch of late teenager or young adults abroad and in a dangerous place for the first time, and many are scared. Are they human and capable of doing things we might think immoral, of course. I have read no accounts of any war when the soldiers were always the "white knights" you seem to expect.

    But yes, there were americans who were serving or will serve that were being moral. Or did you ignore those pictures too.

    Yes, but you're an ideologue with a bias against Islam, so it's not great surprise there.

    Do people the upper classes fight? Not as many. Middle class sends it's kids to fight as well. But mostly it's poor kids who go because there are fewer opportunities.

    Hardly strong. Most americans don't belong to unions and the unions have a hard time getting members to vote the way they wish. So unions are not as organized or strong as they are elsewhere.

    The Republican party used to have that reputation. But then in the 1960s when Johnson was making doing the Great Society thing and pushing for the enfranchisements of Blacks, the republican party so an opportunity with the Dixicrats who wanted more state's rights (which means more racial division).

    Since the 1970s the Republicans have been making moves to the SOuth, selling state's rights and the dangers of big government (= social equality) but that they are the "party of christian values" (in a country where church and state are supposed to be seperate).

    This is not the same party as Lincoln or even Teddy (Trust-Buster) Roosevelt.

    To link US slavery with current US corporations is silly and I am surprised you are making that here.

    That US corporations hire ridiculously cheap labor abroad is true. That's why manufacturing jobs have gone abroad- lower overhead costs.

    As for the NAACP- yes they could improve. But considering their role in the enfranchisement of blacks, I would rather have them than not.

    No I am against government being owned by independent oil companies, as well as the energy and oil lobbies.

    The buck stops at the President's office, even if it's the VP who is putting pressure on Congress.


    I really can't believe you are white-washing the entire intelligence failure and giving all the blame to the CIA. YOu do know that the CIA is supposed to protect the office of the president, right?


    Between fishing and golf swings. Yes, it was his father's way of having personal relationships. Of course, working at the office would require that he would have to read, and Bush likes to watch TV or have things told to him.


    I would think so since you like to wallow in it.

    Speculation? CC, sometimes I think you read the news that pads your limited way of thinking about things. While I can understand this makes you feel good, it's not very rational.


    [
    In muslim countries especially, and Americans are not very popular elsewhere either.

    which makes you wonder why so much Islamic fundamentalism now? Could it be that the fundamentalists are tired of bad regimes that the US has a history of supporting and see the US as the power behind these regimes?

    That was called indirect imperialism. You control the land by controlling the government. Iran is a good case for this- as we supported the Shah. Ditto Iraq. Yet when indirect imperialism fails and you still require the strategic resources- then you invade and your imperialism becomes very direct.


    No, I have said elsewhere that the blame for that policy falls on the head of Osama Bin Laden, the current replacement for "where's waldo" whom this President can't seem to find.

    Are we safer? No terrorists episodes are on the increase. So we seem to be losing the war against terrorism.

    I actually found that incriminatiing- he was talking about Bush skipping out on service when he had evidence to the contrary.[/quote]

    Well Bush skipped service because his COs can't remember him ever showing up. And considering his relationship with government, that would be noticeable. Or was it perhaps that he was elsewhere doing politics.

    Of course if GB really wanted to serve his country he might have joined up and gone to Vietnam to fight- maybe then he would have deserved to be a war president.