No More Moore!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Paladin Solo, May 5, 2004.

  1. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    That's not my point. Idea-throwing is not the issue here.

    The issue here is that when you have only two political parties, they have to draw to the center. The center, however, is 40% of the American population, if I have to take a guess, and both Republicans and Democrats want more. So they toss out a line to the other ends, Republicans to the right, Democrats to the left. These "lines", however, are not real ingrained essential differences between Democrats or Republicans, they're just differences of opinion on some often unimportant key points.

    This is probably hard to see from the inside, but the American political spectrum is *extremely* narrow, up to the point where people used to insanely diverse systems, like the Rhineland countries, often can't see the difference between the two parties and don't see what the fuss is about.

    I think the American people feel much the same, which is why there's such an enormous lack of caring for your democracy and your elections. You should be worried about this, but you're not.

    The two parties, of course, know this, and know people could just as well randomnly pick a party than conciously vote (yes, I know that's not true, but I'm getting my point across). For that reason they have to shout and holler at the top of their longs just to pretend there's even a minor bit of difference between the two. Again, that shouting isn't noticeable for you, because it's inherent in the system, but foreignors have to be puzzled at times abotu this stuff.

    You so need to drop the electoral college already

    No. This seems so to you because you're on the other end of the spectrum, but, unlike Bush, Moore's not simply pointing a finger and saying "he's gay".

    And you're not actually going to stand there and say misconstruing facts to make the opponent look bad makes it slander/libel? Do I have to remind you of the whole "political ads" thing of Kerry vs. Bush. "Kerry voted against body armor for our troops" Yeh, nice going on truthful representation there.

    No, your bias is what makes you rediculous. And you can name up un-biased things you do as much as you like, you're still biased. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, hence it must be...

    People mix this up a lot, especially in Europe. "Communism", according to these people, is Marx system of dictatorship of the people and equal spread of wealth, "Socialism" is the whole Fabian deal, somewhat equal spread of wealth inside the democratic system.

    Meh, it's just wrongful use of terms, but it is confusing, just like how Americans use the word liberal as a synonym for the Democratic party, which is also wrong, as liberals are just "whoever doesn't agree with the current system" and generally, in the Rhineland countries, the term "liberal" denotes the right-wing parties.

    Mussolini is a fascist, that's pretty much it. He ran Italy in a pretty right-wing fashion, very anti-social democrat. Hs economic tendancies were not that dissimilar to that of neo-liberalism.

    However, I think Rak is wrong, Mussolini never stated corporatism is the same as fascism, tho' it is an accepted fact that corporatism is one of the systems that combine into fascism (next to anti-communism, nationalism and dictatorship/totalitarianism)

    However, Rak is completely wrong in saying Moore fights Corporatism. Corporatism, for the unaware, clasically denotes direct political influence of "corporations" (or, in old times, the merchant class). Today it only has some remnants, like the ILO, but generally doesn't exist. The lobby system of the US could only demagogically be described as corporatism. In reality, it is no such thing.

    And even if you would argue that the American democratic system allows for the highly undemocratic Corporatism, you have to understand that the Corporatism of Mussolini is a far shite awy from the lobby-system, and comparing the two is idiotic at best.
     
  2. welsh

    welsh This ghoul has seen it all

    Apr 5, 2003
    Silly boy. DOn't you realize that the goat is often a symbol of the Devil.

    Not only is Moore a commie pinko trying to subvert our healthy republican god loving country by betraying that us to the Muslim fundamentalists who would reduce us to the traditional stone age, but he's in league with the devil.

    I mean Bush and Moore holding hands?

    What's next, Cats and dogs living together?

    And Paladin Solo- the reason we moderates sit back and watch the extremes kill each other is that usually the extremes are killing us. In every revolution it's usually the middle that gets whacked or polarized. This way, both sets of lunacies can clean the gene pool without us having to worry about it.
     
  3. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    Cute comic.

    However, that's not really true at all. Bush never said Kerry woke up and only thought about the Chicoms, not the Americans.

    It's beyond that, Kharn. It's essentially like suggesting that Kerry did'nt buy armor for the troops cause he wanted them dead because of his political (and made up) ties to Europe and China.....very frankly, that's what it's like.

    It's not really misconstruings facts, alot of it is just lies and rascism.

    So......because I'm "biased" (I actually read about as much Liberal proporganda as conservative), I can't comment on it without sounding rediculous?

    Frankly, you're making it sound like pornography, stuff that's only used to make one feel good, not to infrom or be a peice of art.

    No offence, but alot of this is tripe. Communism is a branch of Socialism, which includes Nazism, the Demsocs, the Greens and such....

    My, that's a powerfully ignorant statement. Mussolini was a dedicated Social-Communist. He turned when serving in WW1, and came back....well.....kind of like the heroes of the Mandalorian wars in KOTOR.

    Economically, it's extremely anti-capitalist, as capitalism is viewed as decedant, and usually goes hand in hand with democracy. Under Mousillini industries where nationalized and the trains (contrary to popular belief), stopped running on time, and the Italain economy continued to be useless.

    Nazism was slightly diffirent. Nazism is much more about a race, as opposed to Fascism, which is much more about culture and national identity....Mousillini, for all his problems, was not an anti-semite, atleast not in the same way Hitler was.

    Nazism also had the same Socialist elements, at least until later in the war when, to help industry, Capitalist elements where introduced, though industry was still largely nationalized.
     
  4. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    CC, nazism didn't have Socialist "elements", it was mostly composed of Socialism mixed to a totalitarian, semi-autarchic, welfare state, hence the "National-Sozialist" name.

    And putting nazis, commies, greens and demosocs into a single "Socialist" bucket is a severe case of pigeonholing.

    Anyways, I haven't seen this movie. I wonder, who decided to distribute it after Disney pulled out?
     
  5. Malky

    Malky Lived Through the Heat Death
    Orderite

    May 7, 2003
    Dog Eat Dog, a subdivision of Miramax.
     
  6. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    I wasn't talking about Kerry.

    Look, if there was a slander-case here, don't you think it would've been made? It hasn't, so assume there's not one.

    Oh, plus: Republicans compare Democrats to nazis

    What you read has nothing to do with how biased you are. A communist could read a right-wing article, but he would read it only with the intent to find fault with it. A bias, indeed, prevent you from neutrally listening to the other side, not from listening to the other side whole.

    You've been told before your bias makes you very hard to take seriously, so don't act so shocked. It's like your well-informed, but choose to see only those facts that agree with you.

    Making what sound like pornography? Moore? Moore's as much just fun as Rush Limbaugh, deal with it. Yes, the oscar was stupid, but it was just an oscar. The Palm d'Or doesn't count the same way, because it doesn't really recognise it as a documentary

    I was explaining to you where this misunderstanding stems from, and the misconception a lot of people have in this term. I wasn't saying it was so.

    I never played KoTOR

    From the Doctrine of Fascism, written by Giovanni Gentile but undersigned and claimed by Mussolini:

    The doctrine of Fascism - full English translation

    As you can clearly see, Mussolini full and well rejects communism and marxism as political ideologies. Yes, he picked up and tasted socialism during WW 1, but he rejects it as an outdated, dead and simply wrong doctrine as he introduces fascism. I suggest you check your sources.

    Yes. I know.

    Yes, I know. In fact, everyone knows that.

    Yes, that's right, National Socialism had "communist" (though most people just refer to them as socialist) elements in their economic system. Does that make them communists? No. Does that make Mussolini, who clearly rejected communism and whose system of governance only resembles it in the fact that industries were state-owned, a communist? No.
     
  7. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    I was talking about Bush. He does'nt say the same kind of stuff about Kerry that Kerry says about him.

    That clip was from a Moveondot.org add that compared Bush to Hitler. It was just showing the irony that they compare Bush to hitler when alot of thier rhetoric this election is so hateful.

    Okay, I get that. It did some things right- I thought the Wolfowitz thing was funny, and the manipulation of the cuts was actually fairly funny (though, I do think it was a fairly good drive).

    I used to not hate Moore. I actually have Roger and Me on DVD. I always knew he was extreme, but he goes off the deepend here.

    F-9/11's only purpose is to make people angry-weather at Moore or Bush, it's stupid.

    Sounds fairly socialistic to me. It's diffirent (no class struggle, no unionization), but even some brands of Socail Democrats have done away with that. You're branding him a "Neo-Liberal" (I fucking hate that term, we invented it as Libertarian, that's what it should be called), yet his economic policies where adverse to Capitalist economies.

    I called him a Socialist in terms of economics. He used to be a Communist.
     
  8. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Dude, the article is about footage comparing Democrats to Hitler, from Bush. What are you talking about?

    We're not arguing whether or not his economic policies have socialist tendencies.

    Obviously, Mussolini was not a dedicated Social-Communist. As much as you'd like to push Fascism to the left, it was a right-wing movement. His economic policies resembling (if only vaguely, there's quite a difference between the fascists nationalisation of the industry and that of the communists) that of the communists doesn't make him a communist, nor does it make the fascist movement a left-wing movement. It's policies were may have been anti-capitalist, but they were as rightwing as you can get.

    For all clarity. Anti-capitalist does not denote socialist, especially not if you feel the need to draw democratic socialism into the comparison, any more than capitalism denotes that you're right-wing.

    Yeh, used to be.
     
  9. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    A) It's internet only
    B) That footage is from a Moveon.org commercial that compared Bush to Hitler a few months back
    C) Thus it's about the radical, insane politics of people like Dean who run on hatred of Bush more then anything

    :freak:
    That's what I was.

    It takes more from the far Left then the far right of the time, but yeah, it's a movement of the right.

    It was more then anti-capitalist, he nationalized industry...both Hitler and Mousillini did.
     
  10. RAKTHEUNDEAD

    RAKTHEUNDEAD First time out of the vault

    59
    Jun 18, 2004
    Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. - Benito Mussolini

    I still think that corporations have direct political influence. We would not hear about it, but the governments probably do take direct political influence from corporations. And let's not forget that in some places, you can be fired for membership of a union. That seem like direct enough political influence.

    Actually, it wasn't anti-capitalist, both supported capitalism, they just nationalised industry to make sure that all the companies were loyal to the regime.

    In the newer political spectrums, which changes the old system of rating them by how radical they are to a system where left is economic equality, and right is economic oligarchy, capitalism is ALWAYS right-wing. This would place fascism as extreme-rightist. Also, we need to add a second axis, turning our political spectrum into a Nolan Chart, with the top representing totalitarianism and the bottom representing libertarianism. This makes fascism a totalitarian-rightist state.
     
  11. Malky

    Malky Lived Through the Heat Death
    Orderite

    May 7, 2003
    I'm surprised you didn't think that up first, CC, you little fascist.
     
  12. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    I don't have the money.
     
  13. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
  14. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Yeeaaah

    Ok, this'll be pure, clear bullshit.

    Bullshit to counter bullshit. Yeah.
     
  15. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    :(

    I know. And I doubt he's going to be as entertaining. He should have just focused on the shit that comes out of Moore's mouth.
     
  16. Bradylama

    Bradylama Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 22, 2003
    Michael Moore: Documentarian or Poppycock?

    Without a doubt, the most influential filmaker in modern America at the present, is Michael Moore. Moore's books and films such as Stupid White Men and Bowling for Columbine, have received both international and local acclaim. His most recent documentary, Fahrenheit 9/11 has broken every record concerning documentaries, and is one of the first documentaries to be shown in theaters nationwide.

    Moore's work is also the subject of disdain, however, for his detractors.

    What's your opinion of Michael Moore?


    Frankly, in my eyes Moore is nothing more than a lying sensationalist, who while claiming to represent the poor and the downtrodden then describes these very people as ignorant simpletons while abroad, simply for the benefit of a cheap applause from an audience.

    To support my opinion is an article by liberal author and documentarian, Christopher Hitchens.
     
  17. Montez

    Montez So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Jun 20, 2003
    At base I think Moore is a propagandist and attention-whore, as ready to carve up the truth for his own ends as much as any politician or pundit. He's much more talented and creative than Limbaugh and O'Reilly, for example, but I don't think he's fundamentally any different from them. I do agree with some of his opinions and views, but I really can't stand the way he communicates them.
     
  18. Fas Ist

    Fas Ist It Wandered In From the Wastes

    179
    Jun 12, 2004
    Despite everything(respect,progress,etc...)He looks like a pleased whale :lol: :lol: .
     
  19. welsh

    welsh This ghoul has seen it all

    Apr 5, 2003