Morgan_
Duckerz
I could go into my position more but I think my pro bestiality stance is enough for one week.
It's enough for the rest of your time here. Feel ashamed.
EDIT:
Just in case you forget that humans are animals
EDIT:
Just in case you forget that humans are animals
Morgan_
Duckerz
I mean none of you were able to defend against the position, "It's bad because it's bad" lol 
If you're just saying that we're able to move on our own and so therefore we are animals then... yeah, I would have to agrre. The thing is though, that often comes with implications. Animals are driven by instinct and sensory feedback and that's just it. They can't do anything about it, humans though are able to step outside of these and be in control of it. We even can change different genes that are expressed to a degree based on being aware of them and changing our behavior accordingly. Seem like having that perspective sets one apart from the rest of animals in a very significant way.
If that is what is meant by being " a smart animal" then that's fine. It's often reductive in it's usage and it's effects on how people see themselves and others in my experience and so I push back on it.
If you're just saying that we're able to move on our own and so therefore we are animals then... yeah, I would have to agrre. The thing is though, that often comes with implications. Animals are driven by instinct and sensory feedback and that's just it. They can't do anything about it, humans though are able to step outside of these and be in control of it. We even can change different genes that are expressed to a degree based on being aware of them and changing our behavior accordingly. Seem like having that perspective sets one apart from the rest of animals in a very significant way.
If that is what is meant by being " a smart animal" then that's fine. It's often reductive in it's usage and it's effects on how people see themselves and others in my experience and so I push back on it.
It's bad because we're far more intelligent and able to fully understand the situation and give consent. Don't act like you've won some battle because people are generally disgusted and telling you that you should know it's bad.
Other animals cannot express that they understand what is going on and that they consent to such actions. That alone should make it immoral for obvious reasons. Not to mention it's natural to be attracted to your own species because it's necessary for reproduction. Of course any life able to ponder such deviance from that would find it weird when they know why they feel the way they do.
You can say we can step out and control it but we really can't. Everything you do is instinctual or your brain responding to stimuli and using previous information and the current information to arrive at a decision. People don't just make decisions because they can "step outside" of their instincts. It may be a complex web sometimes, especially with recreational and societal affairs, but it doesn't change the fact that we aren't really in control.
Example: I once conquered a phobia, something an "animal" would not do. But why would I conquer such a thing? Because I just decided to? Or because I felt socially awkward whenever the phobia was triggered? Because people laughed at me and it made me nervous about where I stand in viability (as far as something as acceptance or getting a girlfriend, anything of the sort) in the crowd? Because people said, "That's ridiculous, you really need to get over that"? Yes. Because of those things. Not because I mystically decided to do something that an animal without complex communication wouldn't do. Emotions are not something you simply willfully control, it's still all decisions that were made up from previous information. Decide to not get upset at something that you used to and there's probably a reason you did it. Whether it be a simple one or a lifetime of trauma making you try to avoid showing weakness or admitting that it upset you.
There's nothing wrong with being an animal. I'd bet that most other animals would form very similar societies and behaviors if they evolved to have the capabilities to have what we have.
Other animals cannot express that they understand what is going on and that they consent to such actions. That alone should make it immoral for obvious reasons. Not to mention it's natural to be attracted to your own species because it's necessary for reproduction. Of course any life able to ponder such deviance from that would find it weird when they know why they feel the way they do.
And we aren't? Because we think we're so good at controlling our fates? Emotions are still sensory feedback and chemicals releasing. Just like any other animal. We're more intelligent which you even admit but it doesn't make us that much more special. We got lucky with the right conditions and resources as we adapted to our environments to be able to form speech and take advantage of tools.
You can say we can step out and control it but we really can't. Everything you do is instinctual or your brain responding to stimuli and using previous information and the current information to arrive at a decision. People don't just make decisions because they can "step outside" of their instincts. It may be a complex web sometimes, especially with recreational and societal affairs, but it doesn't change the fact that we aren't really in control.
Example: I once conquered a phobia, something an "animal" would not do. But why would I conquer such a thing? Because I just decided to? Or because I felt socially awkward whenever the phobia was triggered? Because people laughed at me and it made me nervous about where I stand in viability (as far as something as acceptance or getting a girlfriend, anything of the sort) in the crowd? Because people said, "That's ridiculous, you really need to get over that"? Yes. Because of those things. Not because I mystically decided to do something that an animal without complex communication wouldn't do. Emotions are not something you simply willfully control, it's still all decisions that were made up from previous information. Decide to not get upset at something that you used to and there's probably a reason you did it. Whether it be a simple one or a lifetime of trauma making you try to avoid showing weakness or admitting that it upset you.
There's nothing wrong with being an animal. I'd bet that most other animals would form very similar societies and behaviors if they evolved to have the capabilities to have what we have.
Dunno. I mean what do you honestly expect? To resolve millennia old philosophical questions in a forum where most of us just post bullshit for fun?I mean none of you were able to defend against the position, "It's bad because it's bad" lol
To be fair that's actually highly debatable - including animals where some are capable of acting outside of instinct. For fucks sake you teach a gorila sign language an they will start to express to you grief, anger, fear and even more abstract ideas. You know about Coco the Gorilla?
What we humans do have is a better understanding of consequences - high level of abstract thinking. But we are in many situations just as instinct driven as animals. We are just in the very unique position that we can use this brain of ours to create tools which allow us to understand patterns like no other creature - that we know of - can. So we're not forced to always just guess. This also includes methods and not just objects like for example psychology and scientific thinking, knowing about your own biases, fallible senses and so on.
The fact that we even use animals in testing psychology and responses to emotional stimuly is a proof that we're much closer to animals than humans thought. I mean didn't even you post this video about that researcher who used monkeys and their offspring as test subjects to proof that parents should love their children or something? Or was that someone else. I don't quite remember.
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Morgan_
Duckerz
Hmm, I think I concede the Human/animal point. Usually I just see it used kinda derogatory, almost misanthropic way. A lot of people talk as if they see no meaningful difference between people and a random wild animal when the topic is brought up as if they are in equal standing. I also hate it in part because I really, really dislike Dawkins if I'm honest.
On the former topic:
Can an animal consent to any interaction or relationship with a human though? Why would sex suddenly be where immorality starts for an animal? I'm not sure if consent works this way for animals as opposed to humans. I think for animals that are capable of self awareness I agree but for others I'm not so sure. Would it be bad to fuck a plant/vegetable as it can't consent?
Look, I am partly serious and also just having fun here.
On the former topic:
Can an animal consent to any interaction or relationship with a human though? Why would sex suddenly be where immorality starts for an animal? I'm not sure if consent works this way for animals as opposed to humans. I think for animals that are capable of self awareness I agree but for others I'm not so sure. Would it be bad to fuck a plant/vegetable as it can't consent?
Yeah, I posted that. Those are animals capable of self awareness and I think have personhood at that stage. That's even why I make reference to hierarchies of suffering when talking about not eating meat other than fish. I just think we need to be really carful when viewing people (and even animals too) as nothing more than chemical reactions is all. I think morality becomes meaningless and arbitrary if people being killed and a chemical beaker changing states are the same thing ultimately, which often happens on this thought process. We are still not even sure how consciousness works, or if we'll even ever know as apparently there are quantum functions involved that we can't measure. This may also be temporary though.
Look, I am partly serious and also just having fun here.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
Well the UK's great leader has declared a lift on all restrictions circa June 21st
If all goes well I hope to have a very boozy brand value version of VE Day
If all goes well I hope to have a very boozy brand value version of VE Day
TheGM
The voice of reason
You got a license for that?
I'd say it's not nearly as weird or bad (yet still weird).
As for consent in any relationship between other animals and humans, do you really think being stuck on a decent sized farm and given food and water that's cleaner and safer than found in the wild until you die of old age or are brought in for slaughter is comparable to being used as a fleshlight? Seriously?
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
Yeah it's called a US passport, hoo-rah
Morgan_
Duckerz
Dunno, what if they're taken care of in the other example?
Also
for my situation I would be the fleshlight so maybe that makes it okay
Most humans agree that consent is a good thing when it comes to sex.
I’m going to guess that dolphins and other primates might sexually molest other species (because they’re intelligent enough and have the right parts for sex to be pleasurable but don’t have complex moral debates) but for the most part, animals tend to fuck their own kind. And a lot carnivores, especially carnivorous mammals tend to eat other animals that are herbivores. Sure some fish and reptiles and shit will eat even their own kind. But from what I know, mammals tend to avoid doing it.
You’ll find a lot more of the omnivores and carnivores eating other animals than you will find lions fucking zebras or some other weird shit.
I’m going to guess that dolphins and other primates might sexually molest other species (because they’re intelligent enough and have the right parts for sex to be pleasurable but don’t have complex moral debates) but for the most part, animals tend to fuck their own kind. And a lot carnivores, especially carnivorous mammals tend to eat other animals that are herbivores. Sure some fish and reptiles and shit will eat even their own kind. But from what I know, mammals tend to avoid doing it.
You’ll find a lot more of the omnivores and carnivores eating other animals than you will find lions fucking zebras or some other weird shit.
Dolphins are pretty rapey animals.
But do they do it to other species? I know they do it to their own like we do. When a human rapes someone it’s seen as a violation of someone else’s rights to their own bodily autonomy. When a human commits bestiality or says, “I’m a furry” it’s usually a disgusted response instead.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Then they turned that Dolphin raping that woman fanfic(which was written by a woman) into a Fishman and made a movie about directed by Guillermo del Toro. figure that one out.
Yeah I was just coming here to edit in the fact I knew they have done this to humans. Or at least had relations in that manner with them.
I would say for the most part it doesn't. Kinda like as if someone argued getting consent from a 6 year old might be enough to not make pedophila harmfull.
In other words. It doesn't work that way. While I personaly don't see us humans as a species necessarily as superior - from natures point of view as nature couldn't give a fuck if humans died out while the rest survived or if the only living things was humanity. However there certainly are differences in the capacity of intelect. In other words. We can manipulate simple minded creatures into doing things that is actually harmfull for them and their development. That is what some pedophiles for example do with children. Manipulating them in to consent. I know this is a bit strange as a comparision. My point is that achieving consent here - if even only in theory - is not necessarily meaning much. The animal in this case is your fosterling.
I believe what's absolutely clear here is that there is a shit ton of things we do not understand yet and only begin to actually grasp. Like it's funny that you mention fish. For a long time animals have been seen by academics like the way we describe robots, for example in the like the 17th and 18th century. More like mechanical beings that react to their environment like a robot with sensors. Even when it comes to pain or suffering. So torturing animals was not seen as torture in traditional sense. But to be fair many didn't even see humans as well very favourabily. A lot of bad things happen when you classify things and rate some as inferior- and your self as superior. Like ethnicities or races.
This changed over time and the more we actually learn about brain functions and the role emotions play in it. Not just an upvaluation of humans but also animals (in general). I believe that the more and better our understanding will get that we will see huge reassessment. Like where it is believed that certain behaviours have to do with brain size in relation to the body. But even that seems to be too limited to actually understand everything when certain animals and their behaviour is studied. For example that crows display an intelligence at least on the level of dogs if not even higher. Or if you take octopi where it's even believed that they might possess a sense of "ownership" over things. Like a favourable rock or something like that. Or a women which managed to "befriend" a moray eel ...
I think as long as we apply our personal definition of intelligence and conciousness on the animal world we limit our self too much. Like as if a sort of very advanced alien species would now appear and start to study the life forms on this earth and maybe they would come to very different conclussions when looking at us and comparing our species to others.
I mean there clearly are limiations of course. As a spider or bacteria if you doesn't display any sophisticated emotions where a real communication could happen. And probably never will. Particularly insects can be really described as something that's much closer to a robot with a programming. But maybe we are not giving some animals enough credit when it comes to the extend of how much emotions they can actually display. I guess only time will tell.
Wouldn't be surprised if science will really change our views drastically here in the near future.
You know what's kinda weird and interesting? When you look at the anatomy of ducks. Male ducks use to rape female ones on a regular basis. They engage quite violently in it. Happens even that female ducks die sometimes. It's so common that both male and females have genitalia which evolved in answer to that ... quite disturbing. But also pretty interesting from an evolutionary point of view.
So much for creationism I guess ...
Hey! I am an omnipotent and all powerfull being. Hmmm. I want to create a world, no a whole Universe. And today I feel like i will make animals where rape is a common part of their lives. And their genitals should reflect that.
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Morgan_
Duckerz
I agree with you for the most part but a dog and a human (whatever their age may be) are not comparable, I think. That's also why I brought up how I would consider self aware animals to be capable of experiencing this kind of abuse but not one that isn't self aware, or had the capacity to be. Also, yes, hierarchical thinking and systems can be dangerous. On the flip side, eqauting people with animals, or even just a chemical process is equaly dangerous in the same way. I'm thinking of Ota Benga here. There's a balance to be struck is all I'm saying. Not a refutation.
What nature thinks of people is completely irrelevant to me. I am of the mind that we are both a part of nature but are also something outside it as well due to our reasoning ability. Nature is a process that is capable of anything and never flinches unless that flinch that we have at atrocity is also nature. If nature would have us killed and that were proven to be the correct choice should we go along with that?
Just let my dog bone me in peace guys. Besides, what if he is measurably happier doing that than if he were stopped? Is that still immoral/abuse? Is there anyone being harmed? A dog has no personhood afteral. What then?
Agreed. That’s why I mentioned being able to fully comprehend the situation as well as consent. Not in the part you quoted but I did mention it somewhere. Because consent also needs an actual understanding of what’s being consented to.