One aspect in which I liked Fallout 3 more than New Vegas

[Eternauta]

"But the scars left by the war have not yet healed, and the Earth has not forgotten."

No need to tell where that is from. I believe this is one of the aspects that has marked the Fallout world since the beginning. The Great War, the most important highlight in (Fallout world) history, is the big scar left by pre-war society. Life before and after the war are very different, but the scar of the war is what keeps the wastelanders connected with the unforgettable past of the territory they live on. Because of this, life will never be the same again, but at the same time, the new existence will always keep a link with the past it comes from.

I think Fallout 3 was successful about this part of Fallout, because of the great amount of pre-war stuff in its content (posters, archives in computers, etc). I think things related to the Sino-American War are the best examples:

This is probably the best piece of scenery when it comes to what I was typing about. When a wastelander looks at this poster, he is shown the cause of practically all aspects of his life.

I'd say the situation is different in New Vegas, where the cowboy style and the Vegas casino gambling thing are too much overdone, and in my opinion eclipse the post apocalyptic feeling.

I understand New Vegas is not the first Fallout game with this cowboy style. It was present in Redding and I'd even say it was already in Junktown, in a less explicit way. The same applies for the casino stuff and gambling features (Junktown, New Reno). But it was always one location, out of a big worldmap (and in the case of Junktown, just one aspect of the city).

I just think the cowboy-casino combination in New Vegas is simply too strong for a post apocalyptic game, and it offers a kind of link between the pre-war world and the post nuclear world which is not the one I think Fallout has been about.

I wanted to share my thoughts with this community. I believe it'll be nice discussing it here.

 

[DarthBartus]

The way I see it: Fallout is about survival, fall of the civilisation and everyday struggle to survive just another day. Fallout 2 is about degeneration of society, where prostitution, gambling and slavery, even in highly developed community of Vault City, is common. Fallout: New Vegas is about building new world, order and stability on the ruins of the old world. F3 tries to be about destroyed world and survival once again. But there is one thing that just isn't right about this setting. Time. F3 is set 200 years after Great War, but Capital Wasteland is even more dead than world in F1 was. It could make sense if F3 was set 40 years after the War, but 200yrs is, in my mind, more than enough to at least form stable communities. Also bear in mind, that there is another difference between classic Fallout games and F3 - Fallout, until Beth's game, was never about hatred to commies And I don't like it that most of the people in Capital Wasteland don't seem to even realise what a communism is, yet it's full of anti-communist propaganda.

 

[LinkPain]

Bombs fell 200 years ago, whoever was left alive since that day remembers. In that case House.
But it is an interesting fact that he doesn't mention much about the war. They don't know who fired the bombs first anyway...

I don't think that Fallout has it's core in the War. I think it's more about the survival. War was bound to happen, that's the indication we received always. The world is changed and you desperately try your best to survive. History comes back from time to time but only passing, like a lesson. Unity or Enclave or NCR now, all have some of Americas old history in them, like gene code which they ultimately follow but try to break the circle. Well at least our hero tries.

And apart from New Vegas town specifically, look around. Archimedes/Solar power plant, the Vault with Plant experiments and other ones, Airbomber, The Dam...
there's plenty of old world in it. The setting has changed a little but the core remains. China vs America is not the main thing now, 200 years have passed and who would care about mistakes of others when they need to survive out there?
But that poster is good, although when your memory gets taken by Anchorage dlc you can start to shudder...

 

[Eternauta]

... it's full of anti-communist propaganda.

I think it's just to make fun of American anti-communism during the Cold War.

Also check the computers in the Nuka Cola factory, see how capitalism treated its workers

 

[White Knight]

... it's full of anti-communist propaganda.

I think it's just to make fun of American anti-communism during the Cold War.

Also check the computers in the Nuka Cola factory, see how capitalism treated its workers

Anthony House's paranoia of communists/union workers, asian people, and tragic the garnering players in NV makes fun of mcarthyism. The posters are just propaganda, they don't have an anti-mcarthyist message.

 

[Quagmire69]

It would make sense that the capital wasteland is the most desolate sense DC being the capital would naturally get nuked far more than California.

Fallout New Vegas just tried to do too much with too little. Thats why thier were so many glitches.

I don't think that Fallout has it's core in the War. I think it's more about the survival. War was bound to happen, that's the indication we received always. The world is changed and you desperately try your best to survive. History comes back from time to time but only passing, like a lesson. Unity or Enclave or NCR now, all have some of Americas old history in them, like gene code which they ultimately follow but try to break the circle. Well at least our hero tries.

F3 i believe more about the value of a human life, throughout the game you run into people such as Eden, Athur, and Tenpenny who have no problem sacrificing lives for the greater good.

 

[GreatestHits]

Fallout is about survival

Wrong. It's about the redemption unceasing shittiness of humanity and the inevitability of conflict, even when there's nothing but poop water left to fight over.
Survival is just a casual feature tacked on to NV.

 

[LinkPain]

Fallout is about survival

Wrong. It's about the redemption unceasing shittiness of humanity and the inevitability of conflict, even when there's nothing but poop water left to fight over.
Survival is just a casual feature tacked on to NV.

Well which one, US or China?
Because they bombed the whole world and frankly i don't see people caring about any redemption over it, not even pro American Enclave. They just want to survive and make a new rule from the ashes.
What proof there is about any redemption or care about the old world? Only unity perhaps but they are mutants.

Survival is just a casual feature tacked on to NV.

And it is so fucking good!

 

[Lexx]

We do not know if China bombed the whole world. It could as well have been the US of A or some banana country in whateverstan.

 

[GreatestHits]

Fallout is about survival

Wrong. It's about the redemption unceasing shittiness of humanity and the inevitability of conflict, even when there's nothing but poop water left to fight over.
Survival is just a casual feature tacked on to NV.

Well which one, US or China?
Because they bombed the whole world and frankly i don't see people caring about any redemption over it, not even pro American Enclave. They just want to survive and make a new rule from the ashes.

those s's were meant to be a strikethrough. All the "good" canon endings seem to be about saving humanity in all it's diversity from collectivists like the Master or Caesar and fascists like the Enclave, and rebuilding and uniting communities in a benevolent manner.

 

[Eternauta]

banana country

Sorry for the off topic, but are such terms really necessary?

 

[DarthBartus]

those s's were meant to be a strikethrough. All the "good" canon endings seem to be about saving humanity in all it's diversity from collectivists like the Master or Caesar and fascists like the Enclave, and rebuilding and uniting communities in a benevolent manner.

I'm not talking about story, but about climate, atmosphere of Fallout. Looking for Water Chip/fighting Master is just an excuse to explore the world (quite good one to be honest). World where people fight radiation, contamination of water and food, lack of resources, mutants (and I mean mostly mutated animals - most people of Wastelands didn't ever see any Super Mutants, but, for example, Shady Sands deal with radscorps, and Hub fights with Deathclaws), and even themselves. Seems like survival to me

 

[Crni Vuk]

I always thought Fallout was exploring the ethics of a post apoclyptic world. Well in the case of Fallout 3 it was exploring the "lulziness" of the post-apoc world ... but that is another story.

 

[Tagaziel]

Eternauta, Fallout was never about the Great War or its connection to the people of the wastelands. The Great War is simply a backdrop, a convenient plot device for the developers to create their vision of how people would begin again after the apocalypse. I'll give you that the first generation of survivors, those born before the war, might care about pre-War America and seek to rebuild it. But the second and third generations? They have their own problems to worry about.

To the third generation, the Great War is irrelevant. They never witnessed it, nor does it impact their lives. They are born into a wasteland and can't do a thing about it, so why would they care about something that happened nearly a century ago? How often do you reminisce about the Second World War? It's the same mechanism. The 1939-1945 war tore our world apart, but now, 72 years later, we have our own severe problems to worry about.

Furthermore, remember, that we are living in a world where education is relatively commonplace and history available instantly. We are in a comfortable, luxurious situation, where we can easily learn about our past. The people of the wastes have no such possibility, outside maybe the Followers, Vault City and core NCR cities. The average wastelander will be ignorant in the matters of history and will propably know little of ancient history (eg. the Great War). It's been two centuries. That's a lot of time.

It's not suprising that people don't mention the Great War. That's an example of good writing.

 

[Hassknecht]

I don't think anybody in the Fallout universe cares much about the Great War. It was long ago, only a few really old ghouls and special people remember it.
People have more important things to worry about.
They don't know any other life than the life in the wastes.
Fallout 3 feels a little off to me, actually. Maybe they just put in a zero too much, and it's supposed be 20 years after the war instead of 200 years...

 

[The Enclave 86]

those s's were meant to be a strikethrough. All the "good" canon endings seem to be about saving humanity in all it's diversity from collectivists like the Master or Caesar and fascists like the Enclave, and rebuilding and uniting communities in a benevolent manner.

I wouldn't call the Enclave "fascists", unless your justing using facsist as in nazi, in which case stop it because aside from the word "pure-human" thing (which isn't the Enclave's only motivation and is actually true, not just hypocracry like some believe) they have little connotations to the Nazi's; are the NCR like the Nazis? Going east and looking for there lebensraum? Besides, how would an Enclave (Fallout 2 obviously) world be even comparable to Caesar's reign?

Regarldess I agree with you on Fallout's underlaying theme, as long as something is scarce, two people will be fighting for it at some point.

 

[Eternauta]

Eternauta, Fallout was never about the Great War or its connection to the people of the wastelands. The Great War is simply a backdrop, a convenient plot device for the developers to create their vision of how people would begin again after the apocalypse.

Fallout has a deep root in the Americans' mentality and fears during the 50's: the possibility of a nuclear war and as a result, a radiated world with mutated creatures. There's a reason why Fallout USA still showed characteristics of the 50's in 2070's. That is why Fallout world is the result of a nuclear holocaust and not of a geological disaster, economic crisis, etc., and that is where the Great War comes from, the hypothetical nuclear war the Americans thought they could face during the Cold War.

I'll give you that the first generation of survivors, those born before the war, might care about pre-War America and seek to rebuild it. But the second and third generations? They have their own problems to worry about.

To the third generation, the Great War is irrelevant. They never witnessed it, nor does it impact their lives. They are born into a wasteland and can't do a thing about it, so why would they care about something that happened nearly a century ago?

Never said wastelanders cared about the Great War. Never said wastelanders seeked to rebuild pre-War America.

How often do you reminisce about the Second World War? It's the same mechanism. The 1939-1945 war tore our world apart, but now, 72 years later, we have our own severe problems to worry about.

You know, just after the Second World War, my country was freaking full of money because we sold a lot of wheat and shit like that to Europe. And also just after WWII, Juan Domingo Perón becomes the President of Argentina, and his government used the money to encourage national industry, social equality, economical independence, etc. Since 1955, (the end of his second presidency) basically all of Argentine politics move around the image of Perón, even (and especially) nowadays. WWII marked my country, maybe forever, even if we weren't there shooting and/or getting killed.

Also, we had our own "little holocaust" here from 1976 to 1983 with a pro-US military dictatorship thanks to which we lost around 30000 people. It was the first movement to open our country to neoliberalism, which expressed itself fully with Menem during the 90's. Trials against the people involved where stopped and they are starting to be done again just now. Anyway my point is that we are still living with most of the economical consequences of the dictatorship, as our current government is the first real attempt to get over them.

Furthermore, remember, that we are living in a world where education is relatively commonplace and history available instantly. We are in a comfortable, luxurious situation, where we can easily learn about our past.

Who's "we"? Cause I'm not sure if that applies to all members of all communities.

The people of the wastes have no such possibility, outside maybe the Followers, Vault City and core NCR cities. The average wastelander will be ignorant in the matters of history and will propably know little of ancient history (eg. the Great War). It's been two centuries. That's a lot of time.

It's not suprising that people don't mention the Great War. That's an example of good writing.

Once again, that was not what I meant.

 

[LinkPain]

Fallout is about survival

Wrong. It's about the redemption unceasing shittiness of humanity and the inevitability of conflict, even when there's nothing but poop water left to fight over.
Survival is just a casual feature tacked on to NV.

Well which one, US or China?
Because they bombed the whole world and frankly i don't see people caring about any redemption over it, not even pro American Enclave. They just want to survive and make a new rule from the ashes.

those s's were meant to be a strikethrough. All the "good" canon endings seem to be about saving humanity in all it's diversity from collectivists like the Master or Caesar and fascists like the Enclave, and rebuilding and uniting communities in a benevolent manner.

Which is survival of the new races in the new world. Not creating a remembrance of US again.


I want to stress something.
We only see Chinese(ghouls) in Failout 3, and that is one of the many facts why Anchorage is a complete failure.
In Fallout 2 Restoration Project(thank gods for Killap) you can save a former Chinese spy from cryo tank, after her reminiscing about the old world she thinks about survival in the new one. So go figure after that which is more important, history or eating properly and drinking something else than your piss for weeks.

 

[Hassknecht]

I wouldn't call the Enclave "fascists", unless your justing using facsist as in nazi, in which case stop it because aside from the word "pure-human" thing (which isn't the Enclave's only motivation and is actually true, not just hypocracry like some believe) they have little connotations to the Nazi's; are the NCR like the Nazis?

Well, we don't know too much about what's going on inside the Enclave, right?
The Enclave definetly has some of the trademarks of a fascist organization (by that I mean the trademarks of the original italian fascism):
Nationalism, populism, more or less a leader cult, anti-communism...
Some things lack, of course, but calling them fascist wouldn't be too far fetched.

 

[The Enclave 86]

I wouldn't call the Enclave "fascists", unless your justing using facsist as in nazi, in which case stop it because aside from the word "pure-human" thing (which isn't the Enclave's only motivation and is actually true, not just hypocracry like some believe) they have little connotations to the Nazi's; are the NCR like the Nazis?

Well, we don't know too much about what's going on inside the Enclave, right?
The Enclave definetly has some of the trademarks of a fascist organization (by that I mean the trademarks of the original italian fascism):
Nationalism, populism, more or less a leader cult, anti-communism...
Some things lack, of course, but calling them fascist wouldn't be too far fetched.

Well they are a democracy, which, I personally, would make them exempt from being called fascists, I of course realise that they do indeed share many traits with totalitarian states, eg, those you listed; but fascism is such a nasty word, by which I mean that the Enclave don't enforce such a system so that a small cabal of power-hungry people can have a stranglehold on the populace. I also don't think that the anti-communism is really a point, they were/are at war with a Chinese super-state; but then again it is only a minor point regardless.

I guess you're right, we do know little of Enclave society, but we can theorise. I always imagined it as something similar to a Nineteen Eighty-Fouresque world, but really I take the intent of the system more than the system itself. How many Vaults have experienced riots,full-scale civil war because people wanted to leave? The Oil Rig is listed as ENCLAVE Vault-Resarch Control & Control Station ENCLAVE, they had the data; I propose that such a system was instituted simply for the need of maintaining civil obedience. I mean, the people who first lived on the ENCLAVE were the decendants of powerful pre-war people, they wouldn't institute and subject their themselves and their children to such a system without reason; elections and such are still held, they want the pre-war system back, but they cannot have people being too liberal lest they see fault with the Project or with the fact that life on the ENCLAVE may not have changed for over a century, five generations of people whom have never seen the sun and have done nothing more than maintain the ENCLAVE so that some future generation can rebuild America. I mean imagine how you would feel knowing that your entire life (if you were a second generation ENCLAVE citizen circa 2099 perhaps) would constitute of nothing, merely existing and keeping the human race alive so that your great-decendant can do some good.

They usurped the potentionally helpful Project Safehouse to aid their plans to survive and rebuild, the Enclave have an "ends justify the means" policy, if a long time in the future they win and the US society is rebuild then they will be justified. If they have to kill everyone on the mainland or subjugate themselves and their own people to a totalitarian nightmare then so be it. History will vindicate them, the Enclave leadership, I believe, think in the extreme long term.