One aspect in which I liked Fallout 3 more than New Vegas

[Tagaziel]

Fallout has a deep root in the Americans' mentality and fears during the 50's: the possibility of a nuclear war and as a result, a radiated world with mutated creatures. There's a reason why Fallout USA still showed characteristics of the 50's in 2070's. That is why Fallout world is the result of a nuclear holocaust and not of a geological disaster, economic crisis, etc., and that is where the Great War comes from, the hypothetical nuclear war the Americans thought they could face during the Cold War.

Yes, the setting is inspired by the 50s Cold War and Americana. Yes, Fallout is set after a nuclear war. But are the inhabitants of North American wastelands 1950s Americans? They aren't. Again, the nuclear war is just a backdrop - the holocaust destroyed the United States, the country and its society ceased to exist. While the legacy of the US might've mattered to the first and second generations, the third generation, the one of the Vault Dweller has almost entirely forgot about their heritage, as it's not important anymore.

Ask yourself, what are the United States? They're a federation of states, countries in their own right. Take away the state and what do you get? Random groups of random people. Without an Union to nurture the national identity of Americans in the wake of the nuclear war, it withers, giving way to new identities, born out of the present, rather than ancient history.

Never said wastelanders cared about the Great War. Never said wastelanders seeked to rebuild pre-War America.

Then what's the point of your original post?

You know, just after the Second World War, my country was freaking full of money because we sold a lot of wheat and shit like that to Europe. And also just after WWII, Juan Domingo Perón becomes the President of Argentina, and his government used the money to encourage national industry, social equality, economical independence, etc. Since 1955, (the end of his second presidency) basically all of Argentine politics move around the image of Perón, even (and especially) nowadays. WWII marked my country, maybe forever, even if we weren't there shooting and/or getting killed.

You state that all of Argentine politics revolve around Peron and his legacy, therefore proving my point that people don't care about World War II.

Also, we had our own "little holocaust" here from 1976 to 1983 with a pro-US military dictatorship thanks to which we lost around 30000 people. It was the first movement to open our country to neoliberalism, which expressed itself fully with Menem during the 90's. Trials against the people involved where stopped and they are starting to be done again just now. Anyway my point is that we are still living with most of the economical consequences of the dictatorship, as our current government is the first real attempt to get over them.

How is that relevant to the Great War? Your country still exists, your national identity does too. There is continuity. My point is that the Great War destroyed any possible continuity by killing bilions.

Who's "we"? Cause I'm not sure if that applies to all members of all communities.

"Relatively" is the operative word. You have the Internet and can look up history any time you want. Many modern day humans do. The Wastelanders do not.

Once again, that was not what I meant.

Then what did you mean?

 

[Crni Vuk]

stop arguing. Because Tag is simply right.

Only in Fallout 3 you see a very strong focus on "50s pulp" and "style". Even though the previous games never made such a big fuss around it. Not to mention Fallout never was around the 50s but how the 50s imagined the future. That is a big difference. Fallout 3 felt in many places more like the 50s gone to hell.

 

[Eternauta]

I said clearly, the Great War destroyed pre-War America. Yet pre-War world managed to have a tremendous influence on the post-nuclear world (wasteland) via the Sino-American War and the Great War, and their inmediate consequences both before and after the bombs fell: vaults, radiation, FEV, etc.

This doesn't mean wastelanders as a general care about history (this is, about the War, or about pre-War society) but that all things "new" are always connected to aspects of pre-War society. Enclave comes from US Government, supermutants exist just because of FEV, the Master is hiding inside and Vault, and you can even kill him with a nuclar bomb (the most representative element of pre-War society).

The old world is no more yet its influence reaches the lives of wastelanders even after the Great War, which was a violent change, worse than any World War or local genocide (just like our money after WWII allowed Perón to carry out his politics which still cause debates today, just like the dictatorship economical consequences still affect us today)

 

[LinkPain]

But you want discuss how that old world aspect is better in Fallout 3....why? I never noticed that in F3 at all. Project Purity=water for everyone=survival again?
Pre-War world has a lot of influence but that's something else to talk about, and it has nothing to do with F3 being better in that aspect. It has tons of unusable pre-war books, that's noticeable at least. But Fallout 1 and 2 had a lot more to offer about that. Just go to Glow.

Making Chinese ghouls surely didn't bring back some sweet memories...

 

[Eternauta]

Fallout 1 and 2 had a lot more to offer about that.

Sure did! re-read my OP: "I believe this is one of the aspects that has marked the Fallout world since the beginning."

In this topic I wanted to talk about the Bethesda games and compare them.

And yeah I guess you could say it has to do with the "setting" but I think we are not giving the setting the same amount of importance. I think Fallout 3 is "better" about this because, like I said, the cowboy/casino setting in NV kinda eclipses the post-apocalyptic setting.

 

[Crni Vuk]

It was pretty clear from the beginning that Vegas would go for the "lulz! Casino everywhere!" New Reno like design. Simply because that is much easier to accomplish then trying to fit the Vegas area in a setting more true to Fallout 1. Now I am not talking about the quality of quests or writing in Vegas. But for example. The area around Vegas is way to small to feel "coherent" in my eyes. On the other side you have the strip which does not make much sense with to much casinos and all that around it. And I do ask my self how much it has to do with the "retro-50s" style. But well. I guess Vegas was the best we could get today in terms of a "true Fallout" game. And it definitely has a lot of Fallout moments.

Though that does not mean Fallout 3 did it better. As they simply slapped a 50s theme over everything. But doing that is not really hard.

 

[brfritos]

And yeah I guess you could say it has to do with the "setting" but I think we are not giving the setting the same amount of importance. I think Fallout 3 is "better" about this because, like I said, the cowboy/casino setting in NV kinda eclipses the post-apocalyptic setting.

Actually I think FNV setting better. One of the things I didn't liked in FO3 is that more than 200 hundred years after the war and the world around you still look like it happened, let's say it, 10/20 years ago?
Common!
Look at Chernobyl, 25 years has passed and the area around is not the same as it was, the green and wild life changed, but re-occupied the area.

The Mojave area was not hitted heavelly, so it makes sense the development were more smoothly and constant.

[ ]'s

 

[Crni Vuk]

The region around Vegas has been hit pretty hard though. Only Vegas it self has not been touched by nuclear bombs. You can get this information by House and the Boomers as House managed to shield the City of Vegas (albeit not with 100% effectiveness) and the Boomers will tell you that the Nellis air force base was heavily radiated for centuries before it was save enough for them to settle down there from their original vault.

 

[Tagaziel]

And yeah I guess you could say it has to do with the "setting" but I think we are not giving the setting the same amount of importance. I think Fallout 3 is "better" about this because, like I said, the cowboy/casino setting in NV kinda eclipses the post-apocalyptic setting.

Huh? I don't get your point. New Vegas is a post-post-apocalyptic setting, where the nuclear war has happened, but enough time passed for humanity to rebuild and return to its pre-War traditions of beating the crap out of each other for a variety of petty reasons. The post-nuclear Wild West aesthetic is part of the setting, not its only aesthetic.

 

[Surf Solar]

It's not suprising that people don't mention the Great War. That's an example of good writing.

I call bullshit. Your analogy fails aswell, regardless how sad and tragic the WWII was for the world, by no means it can be compared to a global thermo nuclear war, where 95% of the world just goes poof, gone, dead, sent to the astral level, vaporized, burned, leveled, you get the idea. Aslong as people still live inmidst piles of rubbish of their ancestors, sleep in houses cluttered with prewar stuff, they will be interested in the history of these items, of the events that led to that destruction. That's why I agree with Eternauta on this point, while Fallout 3 was just a huge fail, some of the stuff, like how destroyed cities look like were nice and I missed it in New Vegas. Sure, Vegas is in the middle of a frigging desert, but there still lived people before the war, whose remains could be uncovered. Has there been much of that in New Vegas? Nope.

 

[Korin]

I call bullshit. Your analogy fails aswell, regardless how sad and tragic the WWII was for the world, by no means it can be compared to a global thermo nuclear war, where 95% of the world just goes poof, gone, dead, sent to the astral level, vaporized, burned, leveled, you get the idea. Aslong as people still live inmidst piles of rubbish of their ancestors, sleep in houses cluttered with prewar stuff, they will be interested in the history of these items, of the events that led to that destruction. That's why I agree with Eternauta on this point, while Fallout 3 was just a huge fail, some of the stuff, like how destroyed cities look like were nice and I missed it in New Vegas. Sure, Vegas is in the middle of a frigging desert, but there still lived people before the war, whose remains could be uncovered. Has there been much of that in New Vegas? Nope.

I would tend to agree. While it wasn't till after I'd played Fallout 3 that I learned the war was 200 years prior (felt much more recent) I very much liked what felt like a closeness to the event. The grimy ruins and available history made it seem very palpable.

 

[Tagaziel]

I call bullshit. Your analogy fails aswell, regardless how sad and tragic the WWII was for the world, by no means it can be compared to a global thermo nuclear war, where 95% of the world just goes poof, gone, dead, sent to the astral level, vaporized, burned, leveled, you get the idea. Aslong as people still live inmidst piles of rubbish of their ancestors, sleep in houses cluttered with prewar stuff, they will be interested in the history of these items, of the events that led to that destruction. That's why I agree with Eternauta on this point, while Fallout 3 was just a huge fail, some of the stuff, like how destroyed cities look like were nice and I missed it in New Vegas. Sure, Vegas is in the middle of a frigging desert, but there still lived people before the war, whose remains could be uncovered. Has there been much of that in New Vegas? Nope.

Hello, two hundred years, anyone? Two centuries? Tell me, how many people, in a world where education is precious and very few have access to it, would even know that a nuclear war is the source of the world around them? They are born into a nuclear wasteland and most of them have bigger problems than learning the history of a random pre-War item they find. Only scholars (eg. Followers or OSI) can afford to research history and even then, practical applications of pre-War tech and present affairs take precedence over digging up the Old World purely for science's sake. We aren't that interesting either.

 

[Atomkilla]

they will be interested in the history of these items, of the events that led to that destruction.

Not necessarily. Few individuals would, but most people would only care about themselves, people around them, and their own survival.

I agree with you that Great War is a major event, but you said yourself, 95% of the world went poof. And among those few people who have survived, a minority knew much about the war itself.

Take an example of today.
You know WWII happened. You know who started it. You know how, when, why and where it started and ended. And you have seen images from that war. You know stories about that war. But how?
You know all that from your education, be that from documentaries on TV, history books, or oral knowledge, from someone who has told you about it. But one thing prevails there - people who have experienced it, and lived at the time have written information about it, and thus, you/we know about it today.

But take Great War now.
No one could write about it. Well, few could, but would they? survival in the radioactive wasteland and fighting for survivals each day was far more important to them, than putting their memoirs on paper, or something similar. And if they did, what would they write?
Memories of the War would be lost after some time, and only few people (factions) would actually know something more about it than "it happened".

 

[Surf Solar]

I'd agree with you on the 200 year thing if we'd talk about people in the wilderness, not even seing remains of buildings, etc. Yes, then you are right. In the case of people living in ruins of prewar cities, then not. It is in the human nature that they are curious, finding out what all those nifty magazines, pictures, legacies of prewar civilisation actually means. They live in the middle of lost memories of better times, ofcourse they'd want to know why their world doesn't look like on those green/brown tinted pictures they see on some prewar magazines. Ofcourse I am not talking about that everyone should apply for "prewarhistory" class in the school of shady sands, but people being interested in the past is not that much of a far fetch.

 

[Tagaziel]

You're overestimating. How many people nowadays take an active interest in the history of their environment? How many people try to broaden their horizons and learn about what makes the world tick? How many of your neighbours are scholars?

Now apply that to the post-nuclear world. It'd be the same. There are people who are actively interested in history and the development of the world after the war, yes, for example, scholars from the Followers, Arcade, Veronica... But all of them are a minority. I'm not denying that there would be people that would be interested in history and recording it for future generations. I'm simply stating that they aren't as plentiful as you think they are, since humanity overall is pretty ignorance-inclined. Most of wastelanders simply take the world that surrounds them for granted. If they didn't, the world would be much better off.

 

[brfritos]

The region around Vegas has been hit pretty hard though. Only Vegas it self has not been touched by nuclear bombs. You can get this information by House and the Boomers as House managed to shield the City of Vegas (albeit not with 100% effectiveness) and the Boomers will tell you that the Nellis air force base was heavily radiated for centuries before it was save enough for them to settle down there from their original vault.

Yes, I know that. But only 9 warheads hitting the area from a total of 79 is a damn good scenario, if you ask me (if we can say something good of a nuclear warhead falling from the sky, of course).

It seems the one targeted at Searchlight Airport miss it, though.

[ ]'s

 

[Eternauta]

"lulz! Casino everywhere!"

Funny and short way to get my point about NV

People, your discussion is interesting of course. In fact I wouldn't want it to end because of this reply. But once again I repeat I never said that Fallout 3 was better because the people there cared about pre-War society/history.

Anyway, about it. All of us tends to fall into a mistake, or have fallen into it at least once. Just because Fallout is a postapocalyptic game, doesn't mean it will/has to show us exactly and realistically how people would live in such a world. Watch Mad Max (especially Road Warrior or Beyond Thunderdome). Then watch The Road. Different artist will treat the topic in different ways.

 

[Crni Vuk]

The region around Vegas has been hit pretty hard though. Only Vegas it self has not been touched by nuclear bombs. You can get this information by House and the Boomers as House managed to shield the City of Vegas (albeit not with 100% effectiveness) and the Boomers will tell you that the Nellis air force base was heavily radiated for centuries before it was save enough for them to settle down there from their original vault.

Yes, I know that. But only 9 warheads hitting the area from a total of 79 is a damn good scenario, if you ask me (if we can say something good of a nuclear warhead falling from the sky, of course).

It seems the one targeted at Searchlight Airport miss it, though.

[ ]'s

If you consider the size of "modern" nuclear weapons and that we can assume in Fallouts 2070s they probably had some as well even a single one might be to much already. Enough to have some radiation spreading around. Not for ever of course. After 200 years most of the lethal radiation on the surface would be gone and the rest at least 2 meter in the ground. Anyway. As said the area is not hit as hard like most other places. But I am just saying. It probably has seen some nuclear fire here and there. But Vegas as area (in the game) was way to small anyway ... I blame the engine for that.

 

[Blatherscythe]

The way I see it: Fallout is about survival, fall of the civilisation and everyday struggle to survive just another day. Fallout 2 is about degeneration of society, where prostitution, gambling and slavery, even in highly developed community of Vault City, is common. Fallout: New Vegas is about building new world, order and stability on the ruins of the old world. F3 tries to be about destroyed world and survival once again. But there is one thing that just isn't right about this setting. Time. F3 is set 200 years after Great War, but Capital Wasteland is even more dead than world in F1 was. It could make sense if F3 was set 40 years after the War, but 200yrs is, in my mind, more than enough to at least form stable communities. Also bear in mind, that there is another difference between classic Fallout games and F3 - Fallout, until Beth's game, was never about hatred to commies And I don't like it that most of the people in Capital Wasteland don't seem to even realise what a communism is, yet it's full of anti-communist propaganda.

\

Most Americans in the Cold War didn't understant what Communism was, they were still brought up to hate it. Besides, DC was the capital of the USA and it makes sense that it got the living shit bombed out of it. Hell the White house is nothing but rubble and there's an undetonated bomb and missle in the game. Besides, radiation lasts a long time, DC was probably glowing from all the bombs that hit it.

 

[Blatherscythe]

But you want discuss how that old world aspect is better in Fallout 3....why? I never noticed that in F3 at all. Project Purity=water for everyone=survival again?
Pre-War world has a lot of influence but that's something else to talk about, and it has nothing to do with F3 being better in that aspect. It has tons of unusable pre-war books, that's noticeable at least. But Fallout 1 and 2 had a lot more to offer about that. Just go to Glow.

Making Chinese ghouls surely didn't bring back some sweet memories...

That saying underneath your post. You've heard of Morrowind and Oblivion right? Because Bethesda has made a company off of freeroaming sandbox RPGs and their about to release the fifth instalment of their best selling franchise.

Back on topic. You were probably to busy looking for things to hate in the game, no suprised you missed one of the good parts, immersion. Also most people didn't bother to go deeper into the glow because they already had the armor and didn't need to go deeper into that radioactive hell hole.