One aspect in which I liked Fallout 3 more than New Vegas

korindabar said:
At level 30 yes, or at 20 if you're a masochistic completionist and want to abandon any decent set of perks for ones that give skill points. With perks you're looking at about 200 skill books instead of 260 (less if you don't max certain stats of course).

You don't need to make an absurd build to maximize the skills. With an INT of 7, Cyborg, Silent Running and Educated you can have ten skills at 60 at level 20, more or less. Add the Bobbleheads that sooner or later you'll find (or you know already where they are if it's not the first playthrough) and a dozen of skill books per skill + Comprehension and you are set.

But you never need to be maxed to be powerful, NV is the same way.

The same is true for FO1-2 as well. It's just that FO3 is way, way worse. Especially because 4-5 skills in FO3 are either useless or simply not worth to put any points in them (Big Guns, Explosives).

Hey, why not?! I'm playing a level 1 INT character and the first thing I did was roaming the world for the skill books. Razz

In FO3, I meant.
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
You don't need to make an absurd build to maximize the skills. With an INT of 7, Cyborg, Silent Running and Educated you can have ten skills at 60 at level 20, more or less. Add the Bobbleheads that sooner or later you'll find (or you know already where they are if it's not the first playthrough) and a dozen of skill books per skill + Comprehension and you are set.

I actually worked it out already: http://vault106.com/characters/ballsballsomanyballs

So another 3 intelligence would add 60 skill points but isn't enough not to require nearly 200 skill book retrievals (unless I missed something).
 
korindabar said:
I actually worked it out already: http://vault106.com/characters/ballsballsomanyballs

So another 3 intelligence would add 60 skill points but isn't enough not to require nearly 200 skill book retrievals (unless I missed something).

Yes. You'd need around 200 skill books out of 325 (or 15 out of 25 per skill) which frankly isn't as insane as it sounds as long as you watch around carefully.

Also, your build is flawed. It would be better to start with a Luck of 5 and then get the Lucky 8 Ball, the Lucky Shades, Three Dog's Bandana, the Bobblehead and Reilly's armor. BANG! 5 Luck points for free, 26 SPs for free.
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
korindabar said:
I actually worked it out already: http://vault106.com/characters/ballsballsomanyballs

So another 3 intelligence would add 60 skill points but isn't enough not to require nearly 200 skill book retrievals (unless I missed something).

Yes. You'd need around 200 skill books out of 325 (or 15 out of 25 per skill) which frankly isn't as insane as it sounds as long as you watch around carefully.

Also, your build is flawed. It would be better to start with a Luck of 5 and then get the Lucky 8 Ball, the Lucky Shades, Three Dog's Bandana, the Bobblehead and Reilly's armor. BANG! 5 Luck points for free, 26 SPs for free.

This the kind of thing that only people like us would do :-p But that build was for an earlier argument about starting with 4 int. I usually prefer to start with 9 and then head to rivet city for the bobblehead before hitting level 3.
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
Hey, why not?! I'm playing a level 1 INT character and the first thing I did was roaming the world for the skill books. Razz

In FO3, I meant.

I know you were talking about FO3. ;)

But how korindabar couldn't maximize his skills is beyond me, I always ended FO3 pretty much like a God, with most of my stats at 100 or close to it.

With the same 4 INT at the start, current in level 6, this is how I'm going so far (without skill books and choosing the Bobbleheads in level 4, not 3):
http://vault106.com/characters/hazza

One of the biggest problems of FO3 is being able to pick a perk every level, so you actually CAN afford to pick Comprehension and Educated. In NV most of the time you have to choose one or another, unless you want to stall your progression through the game for being able to pick both.
At least in NV a lot of the good perks, like Day Tripper, Set Lasers for Fun, the melee/unarmed boosts and so on require that you actually work to get them, instead the game giving it for free.

[ ]'s
 
brfritos said:
But how korindabar couldn't maximize his skills is beyond me, I always ended FO3 pretty much like a God, with most of my stats at 100 or close to it.

With the same 4 INT at the start, current in level 6, this is how I'm going so far (without skill books and choosing the Bobbleheads in level 4, not 3):
http://vault106.com/characters/hazza

You can have several stats at 100 but the conversation was about getting 100 in all of them by level 20. Which is impossible without either collecting well over 100-200 skill books or dumping perks into +skill. My build was to show that with cyber, silent running, all bobbleheads and a starting int of 4 you average about 60 skill points per category.

Just clarifying for people that make it out like level 20 = instant 100 in every skill. The crux of the problem (aside from skill books, which most people are not going to collect even 25% of) was the game not being balanced around a 10 level cap raise (ex. educated and intelligence scaling too well).
 
korindabar said:
Just clarifying for people that make it out like level 20 = instant 100 in every skill. The crux of the problem (aside from skill books, which most people are not going to collect even 25% of) was the game not being balanced around a 10 level cap raise (ex. educated and intelligence scaling too well).

The point is you don't need the skill books to be a god-like in FO3, just put 8 INT and pick Educated and by level 10 you will be good with any weapon available and will use all of your skills at least with 50%.

Man, with this scenario you have 21 points every level starting from level 4, it's 336 points. And this is because I'm not couting the +1 INT bobblehead, because it would be 368!
You have a Bobblehead for every skill, wich adds more 130 points.

The point it's not 20 levels = 100% skills, it's that the skill level is broken in FO3.
You don't need to plan a character or a build, you will be good with any weapon in level 10 and will pass most skill checks with a breeze, so why bother?

Also, most perks requirements are low, so you don't need to bother with your SPECIAL.
In NV you can raise your skills to the sky too, just put a lot of points in INT, but you will need to trade A LOT of perks for Intense Training or sacrifice an attribute (usually people drop CH for this), otherwise you can't pick most of them.

And this is good, this "easiness"?!
 
I wish Vegas would have made much more use of specialized builds. Like with Charisma for example. I never understood anyway why someone with high intelligence but low charisma should have the powers of persuasion. Sure high speech skills should help here. But Charisma really does not play enough of a role in here. If someone looks like an ape. Walks like an ape. And has the conversation skills of an ape. Why should people take it serious and not club it to death for their next meal ? Because he is talking the truth ? Get to the next fat and ugly lady around you and tell here "Miss, your pretty fat and ugly". There. 0 Charisma. Let's see how that is going to work for you when the next thing you do is asking her to invite you to a dinner because you want a date with her hot sister.
 
Crni Vuk said:
I wish Vegas would have made much more use of specialized builds. Like with Charisma for example. I never understood anyway why someone with high intelligence but low charisma should have the powers of persuasion. Sure high speech skills should help here. But Charisma really does not play enough of a role in here. If someone looks like an ape. Walks like an ape. And has the conversation skills of an ape. Why should people take it serious and not club it to death for their next meal ? Because he is talking the truth ? Get to the next fat and ugly lady around you and tell here "Miss, your pretty fat and ugly". There. 0 Charisma. Let's see how that is going to work for you when the next thing you do is asking her to invite you to a dinner because you want a date with her hot sister.

We discussed about charisma a little in this topic.

But I agree with you, Charisma has little impact on the game besides companion nerve and (the awful) barter system.
You really don't need it and it doesn't make sense the way is implemented either.
And people react to your answers, not to your person, wich are governed - guess what - by INT, not CH. It's frustrating.

Concerning INT, I agree that a dumb build shouldn't have much resources, but the majority of this are related to skill points and not what you can do.
In my vision this should influence the use of some weapons, since Laser rifles need calibration, something that a dumb person isn't capable to understand (the farmer in the Sharecropper Farms tell you just this, tech stuff is beyond him. And you only ask about a computer and water).

Perception goes the same route, other than serving as a radar, there's not much use for it. In Dead Money you need the attribute for passing checks on Cristine, but you don't need the attribute to actually have a perception of your surroundings.
For example, a lower perception player could see less when the night falls, have a hard time detecting traps and perception should really have an impact in accuracy, like the misleading text says in character creation.

There's a lot of room for improvements in the skills.

The modder who created Nevada Skies (terrific mod) did this, when a sandstorm hits you, your SPECIAL goes down the drain (-7 PE, -5 END, -2 AG, but you gain +70 sneak).
Problem is, you are blind as a bat and can't see two feets in front of you, but at the same time your enemies too, so you can use this to your advantage (as they also can :) ).

I wonder why Obsidian didn't made something similar with attributes, the SPECIAL really don't have a huge impact other than LK, AG, ST, INT and some portions of END.
 
korindabar said:
Just clarifying for people that make it out like level 20 = instant 100 in every skill. The crux of the problem (aside from skill books, which most people are not going to collect even 25% of)

You'd be surprised. The fun part of FO3 is exploration and unless you don't watch your surrounding you WILL find skill books. There are 325 skill books and 161 locations in vanilla FO3, that means that on average every location has at least one skill book lying around. Finding them all? Unlikely. Finding at least half of them? Piece of cake.

Also, for the hell of it I tried to make a realistic build:


Starting INT of 7, waited until level 5 to take the INT bobblehead, focused on "only" ten skills, picked Tag! at level 18 because there was nothing else useful, wasted by mistake a perk at level 19 (Impartial Meditation).

I wonder why Obsidian didn't made something similar with attributes, the SPECIAL really don't have a huge impact other than LK, AG, ST, INT and some portions of END.

5 out of 7 isn't terrible but yeah, it's a shame since they could have easily make all of them matter. :|
 
brfritos said:
I wonder why Obsidian didn't made something similar with attributes, the SPECIAL really don't have a huge impact other than LK, AG, ST, INT and some portions of END.
Because. In the end Vegas as good as the dialogues are. Has to stay true to Fallout 3 and the game play there. Which means. If you want you can play it as "shooter". And that is what I did in the end (past level 20 anyway) when I got my social, technical and combat skills high enough so I had not to worry about any skill checks anymore. Except for those very rare medic checks or such. But no computer, no lock and no speech check was of any trouble. And I was a sharpshooter and energy weapon whiz as well.

I am not really blaming Obsidian though.

1. There was only so much they could achieve in that short time

2. this "shooter" like approach in a RPG is some kind of requirement today if either Fallout 3, Mass Effect 1/2 or Dragon Age are some kind of indication. Not even the Witcher which many like is that much better in that part. Stat driven RPGs are dieing out. So much for sure. At least here Vegas "tried" it at least.
 
Meanwhile, the author of the original post gives New Vegas a second chance and changes his mind about it.

Yeah, I'm serious. I still think the New Vegas city was fail (lulzcasino) but I started to like the setting in general. The cowboy thing can, after all, be just the American rural culture reborn after the War, because humanity was thrown back to handmade production again, and the wastelanders find an important economic activity in Brahmins and Bighorners or however these new creatures are called.

Of course I wouldn't like Fallout to be now thought as a "postnuclear cowboy game" in general, but leave that to New Vegas only and then we have a nice aspect of the Fallout world worked on.
 
Eternauta said:
Of course I wouldn't like Fallout to be now thought as a "postnuclear cowboy game"
For some reason, this made me think of the new movie coming out called Cowboys & Aliens. the main character also has a metal thing on his wrist that looks a lot like a pip-boy... except his shoots plasma bursts.

Could this movie be a subtle reference to FNV?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409847/
 
outofthegamer said:
graphic novel smart one

The difference between 'Graphic novels' and 'comics' is the difference between 'action figures' and 'dolls'. :?
 
The battle sequence in Fallout 3 is way better, no doubt.

New Vegas provided an excellence execution of quest, interaction and atmosphere. The dialogue and NPC's character were much memorable than most of the Fallout 3's.

But when the Battle of Hoover Dam, or to the lesser extend, Forlorn Hope's commenced, I was disappointed. It's dull, and not much of a challenge or work as I thought it's gonna be. On the other hand, Fallout 3, while having poor writing and character development, actually provided much more satisfying battle experience. Like the Reily Ranger's rescue, Talon vs Super Mutant and assault on Enclave last base to name a few.

And while Mr New Vegas wasn't as irratating as Three Dog, I still like Fallout 3's GNR station song better.
 
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