OWB and the BoS

[Walpknut]

Perpetuating a harmful habit for generations that harms the population to begin with, they become unimaginative, fearful of the outside, hateful of changem they are making it so that future generations (if there are, and they don't just end up causing their own destruction) would continue thsi behavior, probably even make it worse.

 

[The Enclave 86]

How is hoarding tech harmful to themselves? While I don't see it as harmful to other people, I can see how someone would think of it in that way. But to themselves? I don't understand...

Because they are locking themselves and future generations into decades of nothing and meaningless hatred, those Brotherhood fanatics who kill the Followers at the outpost because Veronica is going to join them; how do you explain that?

It is a futile and deadend objective, the wasteland doesn't need protecting from high-tech raiders anymore, point to the Fiends all you want but if the NCR wasn't locked with the Legion they wouldn't trouble anyone, the Legion wipeout the Fiends.

 

[outofthegamer]

The pre-war tech that the BoS is hoarding was made during an era with a much more stable civilization than that of 2281. And the BoS realizes this, and decided that factions like the NCR, CL, Khans, etc, are too flawed in one way or another, to have access to pre-war tech.

They realize that it could be extraordinarily bad if any of those factions were running around with T51b PA and Gattling Lasers. The NCR is close to that with re-claimed power armor and Incinerators; and everyone can agree that NCR has flaws too.

So, the BoS has a good intent, but they take it too far to the extreme sometimes.

 

[brfritos]

If the BoS see a technology they want to hold it. If this tech belongs to someone, they try to hold it by force, no matter what type this technology is.
If this means cutting access to technology that could help people, "bad luck" they say.

Yeah, no harm...

It's funny that the three options Veronica brings to BOTH Elders only proves the BoS is a failed and racist organization.
And instead teaching how to responsible use technology they try to seize it.

 

[Horus9k]

How on God's green earth is the Brotherhood of Steel a racist organization?

 

[brfritos]

How on God's green earth is the Brotherhood of Steel a racist organization?

Prejudice is better?

 

[Courier]

Yeah prejudiced is a better word to describe them, unless you consider Brotherhood a race.

 

[Crni Vuk]

they are closer to an ideology. Though with a very strict codex.

 

[brfritos]

So yeah, the BoS is not racist, only prejudice.

Keep on going people, they certain look better now.

 

[Courier]

Helpful techs? They mainly hoard power armour and energy weapons. These things could just as easily be used by raiders. If the NCR thought the Fiends were a problem as they are, Fiends with power armor would have effectively lost them Hoover Dam.

I'm pretty sure that if you take any path in the game that doesn't require you to blow up the BoS bunker, it mentions at the end that they start attacking people on the roads like very well-equipped raiders.

 

[Horus9k]

Xenophobic.

 

[Walpknut]

Helpful techs? They mainly hoard power armour and energy weapons. These things could just as easily be used by raiders. If the NCR thought the Fiends were a problem as they are, Fiends with power armor would have effectively lost them Hoover Dam.

I'm pretty sure that if you take any path in the game that doesn't require you to blow up the BoS bunker, it mentions at the end that they start attacking people on the roads like very well-equipped raiders.

Except if you make them side with the NCR and then they help keepign the roads safe.... in exchange of confiscating some NCR equipment.

 

[Courier]

Either way, they're not exactly "helping".

 

[Lexx]

In the NCR-alliance ending, they are helping with securing the roads-- in exchange for technology. But with such an agreement, I really doubt it will hold on for a longer time.

 

[RogerMaxson37]

How is hoarding tech harmful to themselves? While I don't see it as harmful to other people, I can see how someone would think of it in that way. But to themselves? I don't understand...

Because they are locking themselves and future generations into decades of nothing and meaningless hatred, those Brotherhood fanatics who kill the Followers at the outpost because Veronica is going to join them; how do you explain that?

The way the BoS acts now is much more extreme than how they used to be. They went from 'hoarding pre-war tech' to 'hoarding pre-war tech and killing anybody who got in their way and had something they wanted'.

You also have to remember that those Paladins don't represent the BoS. [spoiler:c72e3a620c](I'm assuming that the Paladins who attacked the Followers are the same ones that attack you if you convince Veronica to stay, as I have only done the latter.)[/spoiler:c72e3a620c]

 

[The Enclave 86]

The way the BoS acts now is much more extreme than how they used to be. They went from 'hoarding pre-war tech' to 'hoarding pre-war tech and killing anybody who got in their way and had something they wanted'.

So what's your point, do you agree that the Brotherhood are an obselete organisation?

You also have to remember that those Paladins don't represent the BoS. [spoiler:08ddbf6563](I'm assuming that the Paladins who attacked the Followers are the same ones that attack you if you convince Veronica to stay, as I have only done the latter.)[/spoiler:08ddbf6563]

They are the product of the Brotherhood way of life, and yes they are the same.

 

[RogerMaxson37]

The way the BoS acts now is much more extreme than how they used to be. They went from 'hoarding pre-war tech' to 'hoarding pre-war tech and killing anybody who got in their way and had something they wanted'.

So what's your point, do you agree that the Brotherhood are an obselete organisation?

I agree that the extremist BoS is 'obsolete'. I just hope that if they're in Fallout 4, they won't be extremist dickheads, but I also hope they won't be like they were in Fallout 3. Maybe Jeremy Maxson will die, and somebody more sensible will take over the BoS. (If Jeremy Maxson being leader is canon.)

You also have to remember that those Paladins don't represent the BoS. [spoiler:770b5a4cf6](I'm assuming that the Paladins who attacked the Followers are the same ones that attack you if you convince Veronica to stay, as I have only done the latter.)[/spoiler:770b5a4cf6]

They are the product of the Brotherhood way of life, and yes they are the same.

So? Anders Behring Breivik was a product of the Norwegian way of life, that doesn't make Norway a violent country.

 

[The Enclave 86]

So? Anders Behring Breivik was a product of the Norwegian way of life, that doesn't make Norway a violent country.

Not the same thing and in relatively poor taste, Norway doesn't promote a xenophobic regime and everyone doesn't live in bunkers devoid of conflicting opinions; nobody but the Brotherhood and what it teaches and enforces it's children are responsible for those xenophobic fanatical paladins.

 

[Yamu]

Sort of negates their responsibility for their own actions, doesn't it? Didn't you yourself once argue that just because The Enclave was started and run by thoroughly rotten men using despicable means to achieve questionable goals didn't mean that it was fair to write off the driving philosophy underlying it all or to condemn their rank-and-file? I think The Brotherhood deserve the same consideration.

The things the Brotherhood "teaches and enforces in its children" are just as capable of creating Veronicas and Sophias (FO1) as they are of breeding fanatics like the ones that mow down the Followers outpost, and that dichotomy between hawks and doves (or at least hawks and more contemplative hawks) has been a defining feature of The Brotherhood since the first game. As a matter of fact, your conversation with your attackers outside the bunker, if Veronica decides to stay and you try to present her as benign, seems to very clearly indicate that the actions they're taking are well beyond the bounds of what's allowed by the Codex-- really, they're acting against the Brotherhood's law and teachings because of their own twisted interpretation of them.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Sort of negates their responsibility for their own actions, doesn't it? Didn't you yourself once argue that just because The Enclave was started and run by thoroughly rotten men using despicable means to achieve questionable goals didn't mean that it was fair to write off the driving philosophy underlying it all or to condemn their rank-and-file? I think The Brotherhood deserve the same consideration.

The things the Brotherhood "teaches and enforces in its children" are just as capable of creating Veronicas and Sophias (FO1) as they are of breeding fanatics like the ones that mow down the Followers outpost, and that dichotomy between hawks and doves (or at least hawks and more contemplative hawks) has been a defining feature of The Brotherhood since the first game. As a matter of fact, your conversation with your attackers outside the bunker, if Veronica decides to stay and you try to present her as benign, seems to very clearly indicate that the actions they're taking are well beyond the bounds of what's allowed by the Codex-- really, they're acting against the Brotherhood's law and teachings because of their own twisted interpretation of them.

Actually I don't remember saying that, I never draw a distinction between the rank-and-file and the higher ups; I argue that because of the twisted nature of their organisation, caused by Richardson's predecessors, they are locked essentially into one course with little to no chance they they can break out of it. Take Curling, one minute he is all for the Project, but because the seal around the Enclave is broken and he hears an outside opinoin for the first time - instead of just the same ones echoing around a sealled room for decades - he realises what he is doing.

I have never called the Enclave good people, or rational people, in-fact my entire arguement is based on the opposite. He is claiming that the Brotherhood zealots are exceptions to the rule, the extremes and of course they are, or course they are a minority. Besides I have lost track completely what this was all about, he said that the Brotherhood's ideology and practice doesn't harm anyone else, I showed that the Brotherhood created those zealots and harmed people; they are acting independantly and not on any official orders, taking what they have been taught to extremes but ultimately the Brotherhood's introversion and stance that they are the God appointed tech-police isn't helping anyone.

EDIT: Maybe it does negate the responsibility of the Brotherhood, but as an organisation the Brotherhood is largely xenophobic and reclusive and ultimately reinforces such practices.