Power Armour changes.

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by Jefferson, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Dedman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    I like that I found a full set of X-01 standing near some military equipment just a short walk away from a bunch of Gunners.
     
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  2. Placeholder

    Placeholder Please go on...

    25
    Dec 17, 2015
    Maybe the Gunners found that X-01 in some High-Tech facility (Or a oil rig if they have some tanker hiding somewhere), not having any Fusion Core to spare, they attached roller skates at the feet, and rolled it near their base, searching in their Ammo box if they have any...

    Anyway is there some kind of gyroscope/stabilizers thingy to keep the frame from falling ? Or the feet/legs are 10x more heavy than the rest of the armor (making the center of mass really low)?

    Nevermind me, just trying to make sense with some nonsense...
     
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  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I might have to check on that one again, but I think that the Germans also used to camouflage their tank development as "Tractors", the Weimar Republic wasn't allowed really to have a tank force, nor airforce really. A lot of prototypes saw testing in Russia during the 1920s, the Germans and Russians had even joint projects like the Tank Grote. After 1933-36 the Nazi-leadership pretty much ignored everything from the treaty of versailes.

    It seems that insects have been a favourite name for self propelled guns and artillery. Like the Grille/Heuschrecke, Wespe, Hornisse. The Whirlwind anti-aircraft unit saw quite a lot of different versions, Ostwind, Westwind, Wirbelwind, probably because it was always meant as unit to fill the gaps, till better designs could be produced. Like the Kugelblitz, which was a rather unique design for it's time! Maybe even anti aircraft tanks based on the chasis of the Panther, so called Coelian.

    But, I am nowhere a professional historian or something! It is also really difficult to actually know which project was actually a REAL prototype, and which one just for the purpose of propaganda. Companies like Krupp, Henschel, Adler, Daimler and more had countless of paper projects, like the so called Waffenträger, E-Series and such. Basically tanks and self propelled guns with all kinds of different weapons thrown on it, from the 75, 100, 128mm to anti tank versions of 150mm artillery weapons! Most of those never even saw testing though.

    I think those are the correct describtions for all the vehicles that saw combat in WW2.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_combat_vehicles_of_World_War_II
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
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  4. Khannis

    Khannis Rebuilding America

    145
    Jul 3, 2015
    I am a professional historian, although my focus is antiquity, I love WW2, and I salute you on your knowledge, sir. I find the history of the development of the German military establishment before and during the war absolutely fascinating.
     
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well, thank you! If you're really interested than you should get into Spielberger, who as far as I know had actuall real experience with tank development beeing born in 1925, if I remember correctly. But I think his books, are not cheap.

    Well Doyle and Zaloga are another good autors. Particularly about the Sherman, which really really gets not enough love! It's always Panthers and Tigers as like those have been the only tanks of WW2. Infact, the Sherman was much better than it's reputation! And it was a true workhorse for the US military. Better than the T34 and Panzer IV infact!
     
  6. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    Power Armor always requires some suspension of disbelief, even back in FO1. Like how the armor can stop anything short of heavy plasma fire or even high explosives, but the operator suffers little ill effects (lorewise) when they should still get their crushed by the sheer force of those weapons even if the armor isn't.

    I assume the legs have some very strong stabilizers. You can survive falls of a good hundred meters if not more in PA, after all.
     
  7. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Wasn't there some description in Fallout 2 regarding the APA that it could lock limbs in case in the operator falls asleep wearing it or something like that?
     
  8. Khannis

    Khannis Rebuilding America

    145
    Jul 3, 2015
    I'm familiar with Spielberger and Doyle, but not Zaloga, will definitely check it out. I see your point about the Sherman, but I tend to look at it in different perspectives. It had several economic advantages, for example, as had the T34. This latter, despite being one of the most cost-effective designs of the war, often performed poorly because of horribly untrained crews and over-simplifications (such as no radios) in the manufacturing process.

    Conversely, Panzer divisions often had excellent performance with unreliable and sometimes even outclassed tanks (41 and 42, particularly), because of excellent training, officers and tactical doctrine.

    I distinctly remember that as well. Stopping plasma makes sense to me, as it is a matter of dissipating heat and possibly radiation, not raw kinetic energy, as is the case with high-caliber weapons or explosives, which do pose more problematic issues. But I never found it ABSURD, as in, defying the laws of physics as we know it. The falling thing does that, but I tend to just ignore it, as it only came into play in Fallout 4 (unless I'm misremembering something?).
     
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  9. Jefferson

    Jefferson First time out of the vault

    12
    May 10, 2012
    Like most/all RPG's, every Fallout title requires suspension of disbelief, that's nothing to worry about if it's done well. The problems begin when the internal world logic and lore start to contradict enough, so that the players start to question the material they're presented with. PA in the original Fallouts: "The suit has an auto-gyro system to keep it upright and the knees can be locked in position, to prevent the wearer from falling over, if, for some reason, he loses consciousness on duty (e.g. takes a nap)". And the lore quite clearly establishes it having a fuel source that runs for appox. 100 years.

    The core of my problem is still, that there is no way Bethesda can explain away how 100 years changed to ~30min, and how Bloatflies, Molerats and Raiders with pipe weapons are capable of breaking it. This is the sort of thing that ruins game experiences for me. And Jet.
     
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  10. Khannis

    Khannis Rebuilding America

    145
    Jul 3, 2015
    In all fairness, this is an issue Bethesda has made worse, but I actually always had a problem with it. Based on the lore, even the first batches of T-45 met with wild success, tearing into Chinese armored columns and fortified positions. However, it also states that even T-51 had a resistance capacity of 2500J, which means that regular .308 can easily defeat it, nevermind specialized ammo, heavy machineguns, or tank (auto/laser) cannons. Also, T-45 burned through power sources at "an alarming rate", something close to Fallout 4's portrayal, but even so that was mostly fixed in latter models.

    I thought long and hard about this when I made my own PnP GURPS adaptation of Fallout, whether to follow lore "as intended" (in my view) or gameplay "feel", and I ended up with a mix tending towards the former, making it virtually impervious to all ballistic fire short of .50 AP ammo.
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I guess the real advantage of the PA in war, just like in real life, is the fact that you can take almost any heavy equipment with you, allowing the soldiers to operate under very harsh conditions without getting tired.

    Heh, I could totally see one day 50 cal weapons used with power armors in real life!

    Absolutely! I am not like some of those fanatics that concentrate just on one type of tank and call it a day. Particularly the early war period has shown what the Germans have been capable off. Albeit, I think one has to put that often enough into perspective. It was that the Germans had more the tactical and stratigical knowledge. If the French, British and Russian forces actually used their troops correctly, they would have in my opinion, defeated the Germans in a couple of of months, weeks maybe even. They had the better equipment. But in many cases old and incompetent commanders. On a general basis the Germans had very skilled officers, which I think made the real difference. They pushed a couple of reforms in their military, they followed different structures, particularly with the creation of the so called Panzertruppe as independed body of the army, with it's own motorized infantry units, towed artillery and often enough also air support. The communication here was keye. This was a rather novel idea for 1939.

    However, I think over the time the difference started to become lower up to the point where it dissapeared, with 1943 and 44, as the Germans lost many veterans and the allies started to form their own elite units. Like the Soviet Guards Units. Or the US tank hunter units. Those would usually get access to the best equipment and consisted of many battle hardened veterans. They had track records that have been comparable to the elite formations of the Reich, like the Panzer Lehr and similar.

    The Sherman was no wonder weapon! But I personally think it was the next best medium tank of WW2 right after the Panther - including the British version with the powerfull 17 pounder. But the american 76mm was comparable to the 85mm version of the Soviets. And with good amunition, actually even better, as shown in Korea where T34-85 have been regularly taken out by Shermans with 76mm guns. It was really sturdy little machine! And capable of defeating Tigers and Panthers, with good leadership. As how it was shown in many battles. People often take anecdotes and treat them like historical facts, the with 5 Shermans for 1 Tiger or 10 Shermans for 1 Panther, even though while there are zero historical evidence for that ratio. If anything it was closer to 1,4 eventually 2 tanks for 1 Tiger. It is much better to concentrate on individual battles where those tanks actually fought each other. Like the Battle of the Buldge, or before that in France. And the Sherman performed adequatly. Even the 75mm version. Again, I am not saying the Sherman was a Panther! But I think given the situation in war, and as you correctly say the economic situation, the Sherman was the right choice for the US troops. Albeit, they should have pushed some upgrades out for Normandy really, like the 76mm and maybe even 90mm guns as soon as it was avaiable.

    The T34 on the other hand ... now THAT is a tank that really was as bad like it's reputation. What saved it, have been the numbers really. At least in the early year of the war when the Soviets lost I think nearly 20 000 tanks of all types in just a couple of months. I would say it was definetly the worst of the medium tanks in WW2. Very crude, VERY unconfortable for the crews, in many versions the driver could not adjust his seat for example, it was prone to explosions from one penetrating hit because of ammo storage, safety was not really much of a concern for the Soviets here, the armor was known for spalling and the turret of early T34 was an absolute mess! Ergonomy? Not in the Soviet army! Many of those things changed over the war, and saw improvements, like the turret, but not all of them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
  12. Mohamed2001

    Mohamed2001 HATE NEWSPAPERS

    557
    Jan 28, 2013
    T-XX is Tank-XX but in Russian. The actual numbering is weird and has no specific criteria though. But Morozov factory bureau does put the last number in 4. T-34, T-44, T-54, T-64, T-84 [even in the USSR times the T-80UD was planned to be called T-84, but the MoD refused for logistical reasons].

    Some tanks follow their Object numbers. Object 155 --> T-55, Object 172M --> T-72. Some numbers are just random and don't follow anything. Object 219SP, made in 1976 --> T-80.

    Object 188/1992 --> T-90. etc.
     
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  13. Placeholder

    Placeholder Please go on...

    25
    Dec 17, 2015
    My point with the gyro-thingy is that it has to be powered to apply, and it was stated only for APA (yes), but the power source is weak compared to the true lore, or non-existent because the fusion core is not depleted when you find it, like I said, trying to make sense of it is impossible... it's fantasy (like a wizard casting a fireball). Problem is you find power armor everywhere, "leveled" sets moreover, that's clearly dumb,
    and each are standing on their feet, like a non-powered empty power armor falling from a crashing vertibird could fall on its feet, 100% chance. So the T-51b or T-45d should not stand on its own for example, the APA... possibly, but that's clearly not something you find everywhere. The whole "power armor frame" concept is wrong too, APA (after-war), T-51b (pre-war) and T-45d (the first) are different, you just can't swap pieces between them.
    The model naming and upgrading, T-51a/b/c... no, just no.

    When I think more about it, some people seem think b*t***** are nice for making the power armor more like in FO1/2, actually I think designers in b*t***** just thought "Can we make something really badass like the dragon in Skyrim?" before implementing the new power armor system with the only thinking of making it overpowered (not that I complain, should be OP, point is they only thought about that, to sell it). Anyway Fallout 3 view on it was wrong too.

    The original Fallout had descriptions on items, things were explained, may it be absurd or not, it was consistent.
    Here you can change your sniper rifle receiver .308 winchester into a .50 (bmg) and do a little more damage, no need to change anything else on the weapon. That's a caliber twice as big.
    Back to the subject, power armor is what it is, a walking tank laughing at little caliber and non-AP rounds.

    Anyway, my biggest problem with B-Fallout, is the clear lack of "science-fiction" explanation, they are just making a new "fantasy" thingy, with rules to explain nothing but to drive the player to a corridor and sell it to more people.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
  14. Mohamed2001

    Mohamed2001 HATE NEWSPAPERS

    557
    Jan 28, 2013
    Yeah, this whole universal frame thing is stupid.

    Variants are OK, but some of them should be unique. Like, the T-45A should be a unique one of a kind shitty piece. Hey, it can actually be a replacement for the beginning PA stuff. Basically, you'd come across the MM and stuff, but they'd be in some sort of museum. This museum has a T-45A piece, which, while not really being good, can help against the raiders. It's weak, it's powered, but its fusion core lasts for a few minutes at maximum. Beginning PA and not overpowered and sort of makes sense!

    The T-45A, B and C should consume FCs AND SECs, and they should go through them very fast, with the A consuming them extremely fast. T-45D should also consume both, but not as fast as that trio.

    T-45E and T-45F both should rely on FCs only. Consumption would decrease, but it would still be rather high. The BoS should be using this model the most. Optional field modification would be the ability to use SECs to increase the lifetime. SEC consumption would be higher than FCs, but it's something. The T-45F was made using T-51 parts to increase its power, however there is always a limit on how much you can upgrade things. And that suit was already at its limit by the E model.

    All PA series would have different frame than each other. The T-45 line ends at the F. The A is the least common version, being unique. The D is the most common version in the Wastelands. The E is used by the BoS, but can be found in the Wastelands, the F is used by the BoS, but not in huge numbers. All F models in the wastes were collected by the BoS, or another group. B, C were stop gap models and not many were produced, thus they are rare.

    T-51 PA series. New frame.

    T-51A - Rushed model, first T-51 to see service. Relies on FCs. Not very common. Better than the T-45F, but not by much.

    T-51B - Refined T-51A. Much better than the T-45F and the T-51A. Does not need FCs. Not common, but more common than the T-51A. Used by the BoS.

    T-51C - A limited production run [The Army didn't like it and people even said that the protection it offers is illusionary]. Uses different components to increase field mobility, as a consequence, the parts are more fragile. Offers more protection than the T-51B, but it cannot take sustained fire as good as the B. Not very common, but still more common than the T-51A.

    T-51D - The opposite of the T-51C. Uses better components than the B to increase protection and durability. Can take better sustained fire, offers more protection than the B. Equal protection to the C. Sadly, the components are quite heavy and they strain the PA frame, thus the reduced mobility. T-51Ds are also limited production, as the US Army found them to need more maintaining than other models, which took time and resources, both of which the Army lacked at that time.

    T-51E - A better version of the T-51B. Nothing more, nothing less. As common as the B, but not in the Wasteland. Used mostly by the BoS. Sold by the Institute. Can be found in the Wastes. Best "normal" PA that can be acquired through normal means.

    T-51F - The pinnacle of Pre-War Armor engineering. Using better materiel than all other frames, it is capable of withstanding 5 000 joules instead of the 2 500 of the other T-51 suits. The better materiel also allows it to be more mobile, being one of the fastest PA suits [though, it's not very fast]. Thanks to the usage of Chemical treatment mixed with better materiel, the parts do not strain the frame. As a consequence, however, it is extremely expensive. Only 3 suits are in the Boston area. One, in the Prydwen -- taken by Elder Maxson after raiding a U.S. Storage facility in Washington D.C. (handed to you upon finishing the BoS line), One, hidden in a heavily guarded U.S. Outpost, One used by the Institute. (however, it lacks an important part. You can offer to fetch it for the scientist, who will fix it and then give it to you Cannot be obtained if you betray the Institute or get banished)

    The T-60. The first and only faction exclusive armor. This one also has a nice twist, a not very unique frame.

    Lore change incomming. This piece of shit ain't prewar. It's just the good ol' T-45. You remember when the BoS took over Adams and stuff? Well, they got tons of Enclave armor sets. So they took the technology of it and modified the T-60. You can convert your T-45 PA Frame to T-60 when you're taught the knowledge of how to do that, which can be taught by the BoS.

    T-60A was the initial model, barely used nowadays. It was not much of an improvement over the T-45F. The T-60B was the first real model. Again, nothing special. Less FC consumption, can't use SECs, and better protection. Still less than the T-45F, though. T-60C offers better protection, and it has a big bonus.. no more FCs needed!

    T-60D, more protection, less durability.

    T-60E, again, more protection but less durability. The Frame is on its last knees now. Based on the T-45E. Requires a special frame, can get special frame from BoS techie. Or modify it yourself.

    T-60F, Elder Maxson's personal suit. Unlike the other T-60 suits, which are based on the T-45D and below, this one is a modified T-45F. It's the only suit that offers better protection than the T-51D model. Elder Maxson will not part with this suit except on one condition -- over his dead, cold body. Comes with its own frame. Can be mounted on T-51 frame though.

    X01 - Only one suit exists, and its aboard a destroyed Enclave expeditionary vertibird at The Glowing Sea. Top tier, yadda yadda.
     
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  15. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    ^ This post. I agree with it.
     
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  16. Askorti

    Askorti HATE NEWSPAPERS

    641
    Jun 30, 2015
    I like this idea. And lets add that power armor in general, no matter the version, should be much less common, so fewer spots where they spawn, and no random loot with PA parts. And no raider PA please. And no Atom Cats, dig?
     
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  17. Mohamed2001

    Mohamed2001 HATE NEWSPAPERS

    557
    Jan 28, 2013
    Of course.

    Raiders should get something more makeshift.

    Atom Cats have no fix. They need to be purged.
     
  18. Placeholder

    Placeholder Please go on...

    25
    Dec 17, 2015
    Like the infinite fueled generator we can build, they could attach them to the power armor instead of using fusion cores.

    Anyway you get it, a power armor model is not just an upgrade. Moreover upgraded by only one man, with no more than scraps and a philips screwdriver, the sole survivor (I prefer Frozen Survivor).
    That's something that is engineered, even the raider power armor should be, with limited knowledge sure, but some raider as to sit and think to build a powered exoskeleton.

    Hell, maybe they could have the same raider who got the idea and feature him in a location with "visual storytelling" and a skeleton, or a proper quest/dialogue about it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
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  19. KillerBee256

    KillerBee256 Still Mildly Glowing

    212
    Oct 31, 2008
    Fanboy a silly spin off sand box tablet game is not canon.
     
  20. Khannis

    Khannis Rebuilding America

    145
    Jul 3, 2015
    And purge them I did. They were cleansed by nuclear fire.

    But your post. Well thought of. If I ever do part 2 of my PnP Fallout campaign, I'll definitely take inspiration from it :)
     
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